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PrimeHydra

Expansion Hopes: Sequential, not Parallel (for the Most Part)

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Hi Obsidian,

 

Super excited for Deadfire. It looks amazing. Congrats on your E3 showing.

 

I'm currently playing through Pillars with both expansions. What took me so long? Having resolved the major conflict, I was kind of meh on exploring chapters "4a" and "4b" of a book I'd already read. A quasi-sequel would have seen me loading up the White March immediately, to pick up where I left off.

 

I'm glad I took the plunge; the expansions are great fun, but they may have been better served up like other games do it: Following the main game rather than alongside it.

 

Now, it's awesome to add a major area or two to the main game, the way Throne of Baal added Watcher's Keep, accessible early on. Durgan's Battery and the Yenwood Field were great examples of this. I just would have preferred White March to follow the main storyline, with little risk of maxing out my characters before completing it. I'm currently level 16 all around, just getting started on White March Part 2, and I've only done a few bounties.

 

Please consider setting Deadfire's expansions after the original story, allowing us to, say, pick up an auto-save from when we finished the game. Then we can carry on fresh, leveling potential ready for the raised cap, without feeling like we'd already reached godlike status and also retrace our footsteps.

 

I actually might wait until the expansions land so I only need to play through the game once to see everything. Hey, I don't have as much free time as I used to! These games are huge.

 

Thanks for reading. Bring on the pirates!

Edited by PrimeHydra
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Maybe sequential would work better for Pillars II.  For Pillars, WM added a needed burst of content.  The original game feels threadbare after playing WM; the paucity of content especially shows through.  And the battle for Yenwood Field + stronghold additions fixed the problems with the stronghold.  Even if Pillars II is great out the gate, adding more places to an open world is hardly a bad idea.

 

The experience cap is a separate problem.  They can always rework it to meet expansions.  Or they can simply have the expansions accessible from the final places you reach in the game, like BG did.

Edited by anameforobsidian
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I think in Eternity the reason the expansion happens along side the main game instead of after is just a pure case of "ending effect itis".  Depending on your choices the ending of Eternity can have huge impact on your characters, and the Dyrwood.  Some of it would be fairly immediate as well.  I suspect it was just easier to not have to design around that, and they didn't want to do a "but wait all those changes we claimed happened, didn't happen :D" sort of thing by letting you play after the end.

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I was under the impression they did the expansion like this because it was sort of intended as a tribute to how the expansion Tales of the Sword Coast was done in Baldur's Gate 1.  As anameforobsidian has said, the base game needed some more meat and potato especially in regards to the stronghold and the extra character companions, and as Karkarov said the ending didn't really lend itself easily to an adventure straight afterwards due to world changing effects.  I kinda get the impression that Deadfire will have a more open-ended story though that could just be me.


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Alternate Start Live Another Life? (One of the very best mods to Skyrim, would be even better if it had been packed with a full campaign/story).

 

It's great because it allows the Player a break from being "The Dragonborn" and gives the Player more freedom to roleplay.

Edited by Osvir

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One of the reasons they gave was that only a small amount of players ever finish games such as PoE. Therefore they felt it made sense to set the expansion during the early/middle part of the game, so more people would experience it (undoubtedly they applies the same logic to the economic side of the equation).

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I think in Eternity the reason the expansion happens along side the main game instead of after is just a pure case of "ending effect itis".  Depending on your choices the ending of Eternity can have huge impact on your characters, and the Dyrwood.  Some of it would be fairly immediate as well.  I suspect it was just easier to not have to design around that, and they didn't want to do a "but wait all those changes we claimed happened, didn't happen :D" sort of thing by letting you play after the end.

 

That's most likely it, yes. Placing it after the main campaign would necessitate a lot of variables. Some NPCs may or may not still be with you, may or may not be dead... and so on.

 

A tribute to Tales of the Sword Coast isn't a very good reason, since ToSC was kind of bad. And part of it was suddenly yanking you away from the main plot to entirely different places.

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I really hope the (if there's gonna be one of course) expansion is sequential. I'd much rather continue the story than replay just to see the side stuff.

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I think to avoid dealing with "end conditions" that the expansion could just take place off the main map. Sort of like Toussaint in Blood and Wine.

 

A sort of stand-alone "filler episode" that could take place during or after the critical path.

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Personally I'd like to see both: an expansion to the existing content and a sequel. A sequel would probably be easier to sell though.

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The only problems with WM I had were 1) need for scaling later content 2) making base game's lack of content and design more visible by comparison.

 

I don't think an expension is enough to make full "sequel" (I will take Tales of the Sword Coast over Throne of Bhaal) and an open world map, might make new content fit better.

 

I believe you could load pre-sun in shadows save and do the expansions without playing the game again. I played PoE when it was all complete so I can't relate.

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Thanks all--some excellent points that I hadn't considered.

 

Perhaps the bigger issue isn't sequencing, but leveling and scaling. If my the WM cap were, say, 18 and not 16, and the WM 2 content were a bit more challenging--I'm breezing through it on highest difficulty, and chose High-Level Scaling--I'd probably be more motivated to finish the game :)

Edited by PrimeHydra

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Personally I'd like to see both: an expansion to the existing content and a sequel. A sequel would probably be easier to sell though.

I think this is something that we should just push for on these forums. Two full expansions! One in each category :)

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I really hope the (if there's gonna be one of course) expansion is sequential. I'd much rather continue the story than replay just to see the side stuff.

 

There should be one, considering that I put the expansion as an extra charge on my backer pledge.

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 I never played White March because I couldn't play it after the main story. I am pretty sure that they said in one of the streams (I can't remember which one, but it was one of the later ones during the Fig campaign) that it will be after the main story for Deadfire. :sorcerer:  Hopefully, that is still the plan. 

Edited by keriana

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Yeah, really hope the expansion happens at the end rather than the middle. WM and Pillars were excellent - on their own. Put together they made no sense. There simply was no reason for the Watcher to go to WM.

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Thanks all--some excellent points that I hadn't considered.

 

Perhaps the bigger issue isn't sequencing, but leveling and scaling. If my the WM cap were, say, 18 and not 16, and the WM 2 content were a bit more challenging--I'm breezing through it on highest difficulty, and chose High-Level Scaling--I'd probably be more motivated to finish the game :)

Sequencing solves the scaling problem too. You just make a sequel expansion that is higher level than the end campaign.

That said, we know now that Deadfire will have a "scaling" option, which'll make things easier for side expansions but only IF you choose to play as such. I'm a fan of the fixed design myself so this won't do. Again, sequel expansion solves all probems :p

 

An extra thought: an expansion, although a sequel, can have stuff added to the base game too. An extra dungeon, items, npcs etc. You get the idea.

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Thanks all--some excellent points that I hadn't considered.

 

Perhaps the bigger issue isn't sequencing, but leveling and scaling. If my the WM cap were, say, 18 and not 16, and the WM 2 content were a bit more challenging--I'm breezing through it on highest difficulty, and chose High-Level Scaling--I'd probably be more motivated to finish the game :)

 

I'm actually having the related but opposite problem of clicking "yes" to the scale difficulty to party level @ lvl 15, and can't make it past the Berath monk MOBs - so I'm actually 'side questing' Twin Elm to get lvl 16 before going back to WM2.

 

I've been away from that game for several months now, so I might be mis-remembering the specifics but yea.. it's slow slogging through the long game - my goal is to finish and do/see everything before PoE2 comes out.  haha.

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Yeah, really hope the expansion happens at the end rather than the middle. WM and Pillars were excellent - on their own. Put together they made no sense. There simply was no reason for the Watcher to go to WM.

 

If you consider being asked for help to not be a reason, or just lack any desire for adventure, then I suppose that is true.

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Yeah, really hope the expansion happens at the end rather than the middle. WM and Pillars were excellent - on their own. Put together they made no sense. There simply was no reason for the Watcher to go to WM.

 

 

If you consider being asked for help to not be a reason, or just lack any desire for adventure, then I suppose that is true.

Sure, but taking a trip to White March, while you are going mad doesn't feel very sensible.

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Sure, but taking a trip to White March, while you are going mad doesn't feel very sensible.

 

There actually is a reason to go there tied to the main plot: the Steward mentions having heard disturbing reports of the Leaden Key's movements in the area, suggesting that they have an interest in the ruins as they have in others throughout the game. In that sense, the Watcher's trip to Stalwart isn't much different from their trip to Dyrford, with both being little more than transit points en route to the far more interesting ruins that are nearby, even if the lead you get to head over to Clîaban Rilag is significantly more compelling given its source and Lady Webb's interest. The main problem that I see is that the Leaden Key angle potentially ceases to work as a motivator once you learn that their known agents in the area are already dead, though you could argue that the Watcher might remain interested in investigating the ruins that drew them there.

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Sure, but taking a trip to White March, while you are going mad doesn't feel very sensible.

 

There actually is a reason to go there tied to the main plot: the Steward mentions having heard disturbing reports of the Leaden Key's movements in the area, suggesting that they have an interest in the ruins as they have in others throughout the game. In that sense, the Watcher's trip to Stalwart isn't much different from their trip to Dyrford, with both being little more than transit points en route to the far more interesting ruins that are nearby, even if the lead you get to head over to Clîaban Rilag is significantly more compelling given its source and Lady Webb's interest. The main problem that I see is that the Leaden Key angle potentially ceases to work as a motivator once you learn that their known agents in the area are already dead, though you could argue that the Watcher might remain interested in investigating the ruins that drew them there.

 

 

True dat. The Leaden Key in the White March are kinda McGuffin.


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A tribute to Tales of the Sword Coast isn't a very good reason, since ToSC was kind of bad. And part of it was suddenly yanking you away from the main plot to entirely different places.

 

Didn't say it was a good idea to do! ;)


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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Sure, but taking a trip to White March, while you are going mad doesn't feel very sensible.

 

 

There actually is a reason to go there tied to the main plot: the Steward mentions having heard disturbing reports of the Leaden Key's movements in the area, suggesting that they have an interest in the ruins as they have in others throughout the game. In that sense, the Watcher's trip to Stalwart isn't much different from their trip to Dyrford, with both being little more than transit points en route to the far more interesting ruins that are nearby, even if the lead you get to head over to Clîaban Rilag is significantly more compelling given its source and Lady Webb's interest. The main problem that I see is that the Leaden Key angle potentially ceases to work as a motivator once you learn that their known agents in the area are already dead, though you could argue that the Watcher might remain interested in investigating the ruins that drew them there.

Sure, that is all true. I guess, I didn't really express my mind well as it is not the lack of explanation that bothers me. I think it is just how separate the expansion feels from the base game. New map, kinda different design (more packed and focused).

 

I feel like it should be more closely tied to the game, if it is going to be a parallel expension. Heart of Stone for Witcher 3 works well, as it starts as a regular quests, happens on the same world map as main game, and many of the quests will take you back to Novigrad. You can do expansion and base game at the same time. And story wise there is no conflict there. Blood&Wine on the other hand, I will always do after the main game is completed. It is a much more separate adventure and abandonig the main quest would be odd, even if the invitation Geralt gets doesn't leave much space for turning down.

 

To conclude: I won't mind a pararell expansion for Deadfire, if it is I more intertwined with the base game. However, if it is a more standalone adventure, I would prefer for it to be its own thing.

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