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Cipher Weapons


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#61
Livegood118

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Boeroer, you are right about the soulbound scepter being the best ranged option for an Eothasian priest. In my current game, with a melee cipher MC and a ranged cipher, monk, paladin, priest & wizard, I gave the soulbound scepter to my priest and am having Aloth use Golden gaze.

 

To return to the cipher weapons topic, my MC is currently level 7, and is dual wielding Bittercut and Resolution. He already has the Biting Whip, Draining Whip, and WF Ruffian talents. I presume that Two Weapon Style would be the best choice to maximize DPS at level 8, right? I am also toying with going for Spirit of Decay at level 8, and having him use a shield instead. He's been sturdy so far in Sanguine Plate. I'm just not sure if would be better to dual wield or go with weapon and shield in the long run; I fear he might be bit too squishy to handle the hordes of nasty creatures in and around Durgan's Battery. [Edited to correct spelling mistake]

 

 

Personally, for a melee Cipher I would go:

 

– Sanguine Plate + Dual Wield/Reach Weapon with shield on switch before you've got access to Durgan Steel

– 1H Speed Weapon + Small Shield after you get your hands on Durgan Steel

– 2H Speed Weapon at Level 15 once you get defensive mindweb

 

Heavy Armour and dual wield in the early game with Sanguine Plate gives you a decent balance of offence/defence (have a shield on switch). With a Durgan Shield, Durganised Speed weapon and the gloves of swift action + Durgan Sanguine plate you'll have a really nice balance of offence/defence in the mid game and attack about as fast as you were before when you were dual wielding.

 

After Level 15 it doesn't matter what armour you're wearing because you've got access to defensive Mindweb which means you can go 100% balls to the wall on offence with Blade of the Endless Paths/Time Parasite at 0 Recovery.


Edited by Livegood118, 21 April 2017 - 10:12 AM.


#62
dgray62

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Thanks for advice, Livegood118. I think I'll go for Spirit of Decay at level 8, and Weapon and Shield at level 10, and then respec to Two Weapon Style after level 15, and once I have cloned the fully upgraded Bittercut.



#63
Livegood118

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Thanks for advice, Livegood118. I think I'll go for Spirit of Decay at level 8, and Weapon and Shield at level 10, and then respec to Two Weapon Style after level 15, and once I have cloned the fully upgraded Bittercut.

 

 

A Cipher with a Durganised Blade of the Endless Paths and Gauntlets of swift action and Time Parasite will attack with 0 recovery in Durganised Full Plate. He'll attack just as fast as a character duel wielding Bittercuts and do a lot more damage.

 

A Durganised Bittercut + Durganised Shield + Gloves of Swift Action + Time Parasite Combo with Durganised Full Plate will attack with only approx 10% of recovery (negligible).

 

Basically, if you're going to use Time Parasite, you don't gain much from going the two weapon style route because it's so good (the main benefit of dual wielding is full attacks, of which the cipher has none, and decreased recovery).

 

Dual wielding bittercuts does come with the cool factor though so I don't blame you ;)


Edited by Livegood118, 21 April 2017 - 10:33 AM.


#64
dgray62

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Perhaps I'll give Durganised Blade of the Endless Paths a try; thanks for the tip, Livegood118. There are certainly many good options to try.



#65
rheingold

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How do daggers work with ciphers? They certainly seem to be a viable choice particularly at low to mid levels. The extra accuracy is great and there are some good ones early on, namely the March dagger. My dual dagger wielding orlan seems to be doing ok. I presume at higher levels though it is still better to go sabres? Or maybe some of the models combined with daggers would still be a good option, maybe cautious attack or savage attack? Still should get to zero recovery with heavy armour.

Edited by rheingold, 03 May 2017 - 04:24 AM.


#66
Livegood118

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How do daggers work with ciphers? They certainly seem to be a viable choice particularly at low to mid levels. The extra accuracy is great and there are some good ones early on, namely the March dagger. My dual dagger wielding orlan seems to be doing ok. I presume at higher levels though it is still better to go sabres? Or maybe some of the models combined with daggers would still be a good option, maybe cautious attack or savage attack? Still should get to zero recovery with heavy armour.

 

 

Drawn in Spring is an amazing weapon but unfortunately wounding doesn't generate focus so I wouldn't use it on a Cipher.

 

I think daggers suffer from the same problem that all "small" one-handed weapons face as you progress in the game, which is that damage multipliers become more plentiful and these work better with higher base damage weapons, and enemy DR tends to increase as the game goes on too.

 

I can't think of any build that's more optimal with a small weapon (Starcaller stun on hit, Drawn in Spring notwithstanding) than with larger weapons, unless you wanna count Monk Fists as a small weapon ;)  Spelltongue and the Sword of Daenysis are quite cool too.



#67
MasterCipher

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Damage Type can go a long way boosting your focus gains.

 

Avg base DR in game is 9.21

 

best to worst damage types:

 

1 crush/pierce 8.14

2 crush/slash 8.25 (Pollaxes)

3 crush 8.71 (just by itself is better than slash/pierce)

4 slash/pierce 8.79

5 corrode 9.04

6 burn 9.14

 

7 pierce 9.45 (worse than baseline)

8 shock 9.7

9 freeze 9.87

10 slash 10.31

 

The difference between 1st and 10th places is 2 points, which may not seem like much at first, but the game calculates lash damage (like weapon enchantments) as a % of base damage, against 1/4 of DR, not modified by damage penetration.

 

Example, your base damage is 20, you have a 25% burn lash, use vulnerable attack, and attack an enemy with 10 DR.

Your adjusted base damage will be 15 (20 - 5 instead of minus 10 b/c of vulnerable attack).

Your lash damage will be 2.5 (5 - 2.5, vulnerable attack is not used).

Total damage = 17.5

 

If the enemy is weak against fire, DR 4, lash damage would be 5 -1 = 4 for a total damage of 19.

 

This still doesn't look that exciting on paper, but when you start stacking damage modifiers, MIG in particular, it's significant.

 

Every weapon has 14 enchantment slots.

Legendary enchantment 8

Weapon lash 2

Durganize 0

Pick a weapon that has 4 or less in other useful enchantments or throw on Kith Bane for 4

 

Enchantment costs (not comprehensive):

haste, stunning = 3

annihilation, marking, coordinating, vicious, wounding, most things = 2

 

Soulbound weapons can't be durganized or enchanted with lashes which generally holds them back DPS wise, however StormCaller and Steadfast deserve special consideration.

 

Stormcaller deals Shock/Pierce, which wasn't averaged, but you can eyeball the 2 columns and the base synergy is really good; if something is strong against pierce it is usually weak against shock - let's call call the avg DR 8. But Stormcaller debuffs shock DR by 6, so it's DR is more like 9 - 6 = 3 and of course you boost it's base damage by 20% taking the Heart of Storm talent. The proc is good for all classes, but for a Chanter, but it is a radius and not a cone stun, actually making it superior to the normal invocation.

 

Steadfast, the proc is a level 6 druid spell with a high 15% chance, which can crit for a brutal 150 damage. If a Skaen Priest wears gloves of spiritual power and dual wield Steadfast with the +1 MIG hammer (maybe vent pick IF the FOD proc triggers an extra swing of Steadfast), the proc makes up for the weapon damage limitations. (Only Priests and Paladins get this proc).

 

https://drive.google...2JaUDhOdkU/view (courtesy of someone else on these forums)


Edited by MasterCipher, 03 May 2017 - 06:29 AM.

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#68
MaxQuest

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How do daggers work with ciphers? They certainly seem to be a viable choice particularly at low to mid levels.

At levels 4..8 yes they can work. Because you have +0.4 from whips that help you bypass DR, and because you might get: Sword of Daenysis + March Steel Dagger + Sanguine Plate; + Two-Weapon Fighting for some decent attack speed. Plus rapiers and daggers belong to the same focus group.

Another 'fast' and early game (1..5) alternative could be double stilettos. For example Azureith's Stiletto + Simple Stiletto. DR reduction is decent until you start getting high damage coefficients from weapon enchants.

And for the mid game there is one more fast weapon: Vierina's Leaves. It has superb quality. And because it is on endless paths level 11, you can get it before level 12, i.e. before you would be able to enchant your weapons with that quality)

Edited by MaxQuest, 03 May 2017 - 06:50 AM.


#69
rheingold

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So at the moment I'm rolling with March steel dagger and sword of Daenysis. Just got to DB and I don't have vulnerable attack or two weapon fighting yet. Still the amount of focus generated is insane, can't possibly spend it all in a fight. Obviously later game it might slow down. Having said that I've still to get vulnerable attack and weapon lashes. I think I'll stick rapiers and daggers, it looks cool and will probably give the sabres to Eder and Doc.

#70
Boeroer

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With Vulnerable Attack and still having 0 recovery it's all good. Good thing about rapier + dagger is that you'll have two damage types. Dagger + dagger can be nice because of Flick of the Wrist + dagger's inherent +5 ACC. 

 

Sword of Daenysis + Vulnerable Attack + Ryona's Vambraces would have 11 DR bypass, March Steel Dagger 8 DR bypass. That's great with high attack speed.

 

High attack speed is also nice when it comes to casting. You can intersperse spells a lot faster if you don't have recovery on your weapons.

 

Only thing that is always bad with low dmg weapons are lashes - no matter how much DR bypass you stack. Luckily you can use Body Attunement to lower enemies' DR directly.


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#71
Lampros

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War Bow is a solid choice for a ranged cipher. But I would really like to see a cipher with The Golden Gaze. Soul Whip, Biting Whip and Dangerous Implements plus Apprentice's Sneak Attack add up nicely to a total bonus of +80% base damage.

Too bad the cipher has nothing like Blast or Driving Flight to tune up the proc chance of Expose Vulnerabilites. Of course Time Siphon is nice, but it comes rather late.

Another nice variant for a cipher is Firebrand (Forgemaster's Gloves). With its high base damage and annihilation it works extremely well with Soul- and Biting Whip as well as with crits (which do happen a lot if you use Mental Binding for example). You can also use gear that gives +10% against flanked targets and add survival-bonus to it (up to +30%, +20% is more realistic) and then use Phantom Foes to trigger this. Phantom Foes also works with Apprentice Sneak Attack. Scion of Flame boosts the damage of Firebrand by 20%. Add Savage Attack and Two Handed Style and you'll pile up the following dmg bonuses:

- Soul Whip: 20%
- Biting Whip: 20%
- Flanking bonus: +30% (+40% in theory)
- Appr. Sneak: +15%
- Two Handed Style: +15%
- Savage Attack: +20%
- Scion of Flame: +20%
-------------------------
= +140% weapon base damage without enchantments and MIG (Firebrand has Damaging III which adds +45% damage as well). With Damaging III this adds up to +195% at 10 MIG.

On a crit this will be +295% (without Merciless Hand).

Of course you can only summon Firebrand thrice per rest - but you can use an estoc or great sword for backup. Actually Justice is not bad because lashes do generate focus and justice has two of them: a 10% crushing lash and an additional +25% crushing lash. Of you manage to get that first lash through DR it's not bad for early to mid game. Later, with elemental lashes and durgan steel I would perhaps use Rumbalt or Blade of the Endless paths. But nothing beats Firebrand in the early to mid game if you can stack a lot of dmg bonuses.

 

You are a site treasure! ;)



#72
Lampros

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The biggest consideration in my mind is how much gear you want to dump into the character.  Durgan Ingots are a very limited resource, for instance, and you're not going to have 6 sets of Gauntlets of Swift Action, and there's only one Helwax Mold - and all the max DPS builds mentioned above are going to make a lot of demands on those resources.

 

I like BotEP on a melee Cipher as it's less demanding than the other options, and still very high performance.  Plus there are lots of great two-handers that work better on other classes, and you can ride the adventurer weapon focus to use a war bow until you build up some of the gear to really activate the melee Cipher.

For ranged Ciphers, blunderbuss is ok it shares traits with pistol, so you can swap between the two (pistols for high DR enemies, blunderbuss for low / debuffed foes).  If you aren't going to micro a quick switch / arquebus every fight you'll get better performance out of blunderbuss + pistol as needed.  More importantly, firearms are way less resource dependent than war bows to be effective.  If you're going to throw your ingots and GoSA at your ranged cipher, war bow is going to outperform firearms pretty handily, but if you're not (because you'd rather use those on a different character) firearms are the way to go.  Firearms end up outperforming bows in the early to mid points in the game for similar reasons - they really just need traits, not gear, to shine, but benefit so much less from durganifying than bows that they fall off once that comes online.

 

So there are a lot of good options, and a lot really depends on what else you want in your party - and who is getting dibs on the priority DPS gear.

 

How many items per game can you usually enchant Durgan enchants with?



#73
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Depends. One handed weapons for example only need one ingot while two handed need two. 

 

It also depends how you solve the quest around the White Forge. There's an option where you can make the smelting from raw durgan steel bars (the stuff you find and loot) into refined ingots (the final resource for enchantment) more effective (from 3:1 to 2:1).


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#74
Lampros

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Damage Type can go a long way boosting your focus gains.

 

Avg base DR in game is 9.21

 

best to worst damage types:

 

1 crush/pierce 8.14

2 crush/slash 8.25 (Pollaxes)

3 crush 8.71 (just by itself is better than slash/pierce)

4 slash/pierce 8.79

5 corrode 9.04

6 burn 9.14

 

7 pierce 9.45 (worse than baseline)

8 shock 9.7

9 freeze 9.87

10 slash 10.31

 

The difference between 1st and 10th places is 2 points, which may not seem like much at first, but the game calculates lash damage (like weapon enchantments) as a % of base damage, against 1/4 of DR, not modified by damage penetration.

 

Example, your base damage is 20, you have a 25% burn lash, use vulnerable attack, and attack an enemy with 10 DR.

Your adjusted base damage will be 15 (20 - 5 instead of minus 10 b/c of vulnerable attack).

Your lash damage will be 2.5 (5 - 2.5, vulnerable attack is not used).

Total damage = 17.5

 

If the enemy is weak against fire, DR 4, lash damage would be 5 -1 = 4 for a total damage of 19.

 

This still doesn't look that exciting on paper, but when you start stacking damage modifiers, MIG in particular, it's significant.

 

Every weapon has 14 enchantment slots.

Legendary enchantment 8

Weapon lash 2

Durganize 0

Pick a weapon that has 4 or less in other useful enchantments or throw on Kith Bane for 4

 

Enchantment costs (not comprehensive):

haste, stunning = 3

annihilation, marking, coordinating, vicious, wounding, most things = 2

 

Soulbound weapons can't be durganized or enchanted with lashes which generally holds them back DPS wise, however StormCaller and Steadfast deserve special consideration.

 

Stormcaller deals Shock/Pierce, which wasn't averaged, but you can eyeball the 2 columns and the base synergy is really good; if something is strong against pierce it is usually weak against shock - let's call call the avg DR 8. But Stormcaller debuffs shock DR by 6, so it's DR is more like 9 - 6 = 3 and of course you boost it's base damage by 20% taking the Heart of Storm talent. The proc is good for all classes, but for a Chanter, but it is a radius and not a cone stun, actually making it superior to the normal invocation.

 

Steadfast, the proc is a level 6 druid spell with a high 15% chance, which can crit for a brutal 150 damage. If a Skaen Priest wears gloves of spiritual power and dual wield Steadfast with the +1 MIG hammer (maybe vent pick IF the FOD proc triggers an extra swing of Steadfast), the proc makes up for the weapon damage limitations. (Only Priests and Paladins get this proc).

 

https://drive.google...2JaUDhOdkU/view (courtesy of someone else on these forums)

 

Hmmm, so are Soulbound items worse?



#75
mosspit

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Soulbound Items are usually preferred for their utility abilities and desirable on-hit/on-crit effects. Non-soulbound weapons are preferred from a pure dmg standpoint.
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#76
Lampros

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Soulbound Items are usually preferred for their utility abilities and desirable on-hit/on-crit effects. Non-soulbound weapons are preferred from a pure dmg standpoint.

 

I see. So case-by-case case! ;)






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