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US attacks on Syria


Zoraptor

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according to janes 2015-16, the ceb (combined effects bomblets) is no longer in use. the tlam-d is a fragmentation weapon for taking out soft targets.

 

ceb are still in use, at least according to... the US Navy. Think I'll go with them, thanks. To whit: "Block III TLAM-D - conventional submunitions dispenser with combined effect bomblets." Updated, April 10 2017, so it's not an abandoned page- cunningly titled 'US Navy Tomahawk fact file', so easy to miss- either. This is a forum for reasoned discussion and analysis of the facts, please don't post any more fake news/ alternative facts designed to muddy the waters with flim flam razzle dazzle, they're tiresome to correct.

 

Please note that the TLAM-D entry was likely left in for posterity's sake in informing the public of historical variants, as the page also includes an entry for the TLAM-N, which is _absolutely for sure_ no longer in service for diplomatic reasons (South Korea and Japan weren't exactly keen on a cruiser or destroyer that may or may not have nuclear weapons aboard making port in the post Cold War-environment). Missile Threat corroborates Jane's:

 

 

 

However, the CEB warhead is no longer used and has been replaced with a fragmentation unitary warhead.

 

Further:

 

 

 

The Block IV TLAM-E has a range of 900 nautical miles or 1,600 km. it carries a 1,000 lb. unitary warhead.17 The Block IV is the only Tomahawk variant that is still manufactured. Remaining Tomahawk missiles of other variations will be converted to the Block IV capability.

 

And take it or leave it, I have never played a Harpoon or C: MANO scenario that takes place post-1990 where the TLAM-D was available to me.

Edited by Agiel
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"Turned wrong way round, the relentless unforeseen was what we schoolchildren studied as 'History,' harmless history, where everything unexpected in its own time is chronicled on the page as inevitable. The terror of the unforeseen is what the science of history hides, turning a disaster into an epic.”

 

-Philip Roth, The Plot Against America

 

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(continued misdirection)

 

ah, so the complaint is that the navy didn't update their website.  shocking that jane's does a better job. is complete baffling that with at least one hour advanced warning, a few resources might be moved?  points for dogged consistency though.  even brought up imagined hypocrisy.  more deflection?  sure, Gromnir has beat on trump for alternative facts, including his bizarre 180 regarding intervention in syria itself. however, is the russian propaganda playbook to simple try and make everything look like a lie so that conspiracy theorist nutters believe every State claim is couched in lies.  tomahawks has been in service for decades, and their capabilities and shortcomings is well known.  try and flim-flam us into believing less than half were accurate, less than half managed to reach target out of 59? the fuzzy russian drone video sure were convincing, eh? to believe complete unprecedented simple 'cause trump's administration affirmed 57 o' 59 reached targets? radar data.  what else?

 

 

whatever. we do not suffer such paranoia, but again, thanks for illustrating.  reflex denialism has gotta be exhausting.

 

as usual, you got reversed and inverted and/or backwards. our trump suspicion woulda' been triggered if numerous independent sources confirmed a chemical weapon attack and trump characteristically denied such ever happened.  if after numerous news agencies, national intelligence agencies and satellite imagery revealed an attack had taken place on the syrian airbase and trump nevertheless denied the US were responsible... blame on isis or accident or some such, then we would suspect trump o' more alternative facts.

 

syria used chemical weapons.  the US then applied a limited and proportional response to chastise syria and russia.  even with one hour advance warning, syria and the russians had little alternative but to sit and take the punch.  get a handful o' planes in the air and then abandon the airfield? is a dramatic message from US. zor fight so dogged to deny the number o' tomahawks reaching the site or the capacities o' land-based radar to identify targets is all just your typical misdirection nonsense.  is illustrative. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am thinking trump deserves more criticism for his reversal insofar as syria is concerned.  how many thousands has died in the conflict in syria before the most recent chemical weapon attack? syria has used chemical weapons in the past, but for some reason trump seizes on this most recent syrian excess to change policy?  yeah, our suspicion o' trump has us looking for other motives than his humanitarianism.  nevertheless, our suspicion o' trump doesn't mean the syrian chemical attack didn't happen.  doesn't mean the US didn't respond with highly accurate and reliable tomahawk weapons which, as has been noted many times now, ain't ideal for knocking out an airbase, but keep US service people out of harm's way and allow for increased proportional future responses. 

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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What can I say? It's a tradition, and actually a genuine one as well- though Bill definitely did it to humanise himself since he's seen as a boring robot. In mitigation I can say that Watties Tinned Spaghetti is far nicer than you'd imagine, though it makes the pizza far too soggy for my tastes and I tend to make my pizzas more gourmet than that.

 

 

(perspicacous observations and exposure of propaganda)

ah, so the complaint is that the navy didn't update their website.

 

They did, a day or so ago. I even listed the date.

 

is complete baffling that with at least one hour advanced warning, a few resources might be moved?

Syria doesn't have enough pilots for its existing planes, they definitely couldn't move everything. And the obvious thing to do is to just move them onto the berms anyway, the armoured hangars were well known to be insufficient.

 

points for dogged consistency though.  even brought up imagined hypocrisy.  more deflection?  sure, Gromnir has beat on trump for alternative facts, including his bizarre 180 regarding intervention in syria itself. however, is the russian propaganda playbook to simple try and make everything look like a lie so that conspiracy theorist nutters believe every State claim is couched in lies.

Shrug. The US has produced plenty of bollocks here, without doubt. 20% of a combat wing destroyed morphing to 20% of the entire air force destroyed? There wasn't even 20% of Syria's air force there. Shayrat also changed from Syria's biggest military airport to its second biggest- which is still inaccurate as T4, Sayqal, Hmeimem and Dumayr are larger and at least 3 of those definitely have more planes, albeit the ones at Hmeimem include Russia's. Retroactively removing claims of striking Shayrat's runways, only providing evidence for 16 targets being hit but claiming more without evidence, the radar trace that shows it was at best highly unlikely that a bomb was dropped by the claimed aircraft on Khan Sheiktoun, the airfield is out of use to all practical purposes etc etc. You simply believe it to be true because you want it to be true, not because there's evidence.

 

try and flim-flam us into believing less than half were accurate, less than half managed to reach target out of 59?

 

They also have a known potential weakness flying over featureless surfaces like ocean and have never been tested against Russia. It would also be trivial to provide the evidence of the 'missing' hits, if they existed. As it is we have two sources parroting the same incomplete data as being complete.

 

the fuzzy russian drone video sure were convincing, eh?

 

Equally as convincing as the US's low res satellite images showing 16 targets hit and no more. Fortunately there was plenty of video and pictures from on the ground as well, though for some reason you ignore them, continuously.

 

syria used chemical weapons.

Prove it. No no, don't post more yellowcake, mobile weapons labs, aluminium tubes etc, assertations and appeals to the authority of interested parties, PROVE IT. Indeed, feel free to provide any actual evidence. Not flim flam about poisonous chemicals being present, do it for something that is actually disputed; ie that a Su22 dropped a chemical bomb on Khan Sheiktoun. Any credible evidence at all, please.

 

You're focussing on anything but proving that, the root issue, for some reason. I've actually provided evidence for the story according to the US being at very best unlikely, you've blithely ignored that to focus on other things while accusing me of deflection. Go on, have a crack at the root issue. If you can. If you don't I assume you can't.

 

The US radar trace is laughable as proof, and barely even counts as credible evidence since it would require an outright bizarre and close to impossible attack pattern or for it to be a missile (which contradicts every witness account, and doesn't fit crater pattern either), and that is the only actual evidence provided except for said random crater. There isn't even a single picture of the remains of the supposed chemical bomb in existence, which would be a good start and for which there should have been multiple sources. If it were a chemical warhead. At least with Ghouta there were plenty of pictures of them; KS though, not a jpg, not a potato pic, nothing.

 

get a handful o' planes in the air and then abandon the airfield?

 

It's still in use. There are pictures of Su22 with the same tail numbers taking off, landing, then taking off again, rearmed, as I said then you ignored. However many tomahawks hit if they were meant to stop the airfield being functional- and I'll go with Mattis here that that was the aim- it failed. You can argue that it failed deliberately and was meant near purely as a demonstration, but you can't argue that it has put the airfield out of action though, because it isn't.

 

Anyway, I applaud your stated desire to focus on the core issues at hand. So I eagerly await some actual evidence that Syria used a CW bomb. I won't, er, hold my breath though nor will I expect anything other than appeals to authority and Al Qaeda sources. Feel free to surprise me.

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Some crimes warrant the death penalty

 

 

PINEAPPLE! Run that bum out of office!

 

Its interesting how depending  on where we live different pizza ingredients are considered acceptable or not

 

We have chatted about this before but for example in SA banana and pineapple are very common. I always have multiple ingredients on my PIzza, I dont support these " pizza traditionalists  " who claim you cant use ingredient x or ingredient y

 

Sure in Naples you find pizza places that basically only serve 2 ingredients and anything more is considered " pizza heresy " 

 

But since I dont live in Italy I make or order whatever Pizza I want  :)

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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We have chatted about this before but for example in SA banana and pineapple are very common. 

 

Such worthless banana-pineapple on pizza eaters don't deserve to live; not when good men die.

Edited by Namutree
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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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mmm. I find it unlikely that a bomb hit a rebel chemical weapons depo by chance. I also find it unlikely that it would all be a hoax designed to get the US more involved, but there is also the fact that chemical weapons are unique in their ability to penetrate to western TV screens. So much so that this negates much of their use on the battlefield, politically they don't seem worth it.

 

My guess, a local commander did it of his own volition. Assad has chemical weapons tucked away for a rainy day, why wouldn't he. He's in a war, is he going to give up weapons. No, he's going to make a show of compliance and that will be enough. 

Na na  na na  na na  ...

greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER.

That is all.

 

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It pretty much cannot be one local commander alone. Even by the old US version CW were held in reserves, then distributed as needed which requires at least two local commanders to act in concert in their use. That scenario is not impossible, but still runs into the same obvious logical flaws as if Assad himself ordered it; why would they, and why in that manner.

 

It also doesn't have to be a CW depot hit, organophosphate insecticides give the same symptoms since they're basically the same chemicals with the same mode of action, they just require higher doses- and they are used in large quantities. There are literally millions of OP poisonings a year, and literally 100ks of deaths from them.

 

(Though I do agree that Assad has some chemical weapons still they're not for use in pointlessly bombing random towns, they're for what they've always been for- deterring Israel)

Edited by Zoraptor
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http://www.10news.com/newsy/russia-blocks-the-un-from-investigating-syrian-chemical-attack

 

 

http://globalnews.ca/news/3370667/russia-syria-chemical-attack-united-nations-investigation/

 

 

 

Again the hypocrisy of Russia is demonstrated, after Putin demanded an UN investigation into the Syrian chemical attacks Russia then vetoed the proposed investigation.....

 

Yeah Putin we really believe Assad is innocent  :biggrin:

Edited by BruceVC

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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if for just one year, governments did not spend anything on their military (besides the salaries of the those working there) and gave that money for research, we could advance our technology by 100 years in a decade

  • Like 1

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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if for just one year, governments did not spend anything on their military (besides the salaries of the those working there) and gave that money for research, we could advance our technology by 100 years in a decade

But we have to have strong militaries to ensure a balance in the world and address global concerns  like dictatorships 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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if for just one year, governments did not spend anything on their military (besides the salaries of the those working there) and gave that money for research, we could advance our technology by 100 years in a decade

But we have to have strong militaries to ensure a balance in the world and address global concerns like dictatorships

Question: How is it different to be ruled by your own dictators military or by the military of some forgein power?

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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more blanket denialism

as agiel already noted, there is multiple sources for the tlam-d info, but you find one contradiction to bolster your reflexive denialism.  is a pattern for you and russia.  anybody would come to likely conclusion that the navy simple did not update their public site regarding that specific weapon (updating the page don't mean the entry were accurate updated... obvious), cause there is multiple other sources which make pretty clear that the tlam-d don't have the capacity you believe it does, including highly respected independent sources such as jane's.

 

and those tomahawks has been used over water many times.  have a couple be inaccurate and miss targets over such a distance would fall within ordinary range o' expectations.  maybe three? heck, go crazy and maybe account for 5 inaccurate tomahawks.  most extreme, benefit-o-the-doubt filled pipedream and suggest 10 outta 59 missed final marks. 10?  49 hits woulda' been improbable low, but am guessing it still sounded like too much from the pov o' the russians. russian playbook is to lie and so we get less than 50% accurate.  right. 

 

planes not targeted on runway 'cause syria has no pilots? HA! syria and russia got considerable advanced warning, so some planes were gonna be moved.  not target the planes most likely to be moved? *feigned shock.*

 

etc.

 

your reflexive denialism is a condition.  you deny capacity to identify by radar inspite o' considerable evidence to contrary.  you deny simple 'cause proofs come from  US sources or mass media sources, which is exact the kinda paranoid and reflexive denialism russia has been attempting to export for years. you are the ideal mark for the flim-flam.

 

fine.

 

so when the opportunity to get an independent investigation going regarding the cw attack, one from a source not inherent tainted in zor's mind, the russians predictable veto.  not even the chinese stood in the way o' getting an independent investigation going from the UN regarding the cw attack.  an independent UN investigation would establish facts which would not have the taint you seem to believe is inherent to any US or mass media source. russia's response were to reject when such an investigation would be the best way to exonerate an innocent syria.  russia vetoes?  

 

am glad you brought up Gromnir's typical reaction to trump, 'cause is just one way a normal and reasonable person differs from the reflexive denialist.  we do not believe trump.  we don't believe his motives, but trump is not the US government, which seems to be a shock to nobody more than trump.  how many times has we already seen US intelligence agencies refute trump during his short time as President? we don't believe trump motives and am gonna be suspicious o' trump statements.  even so, we don't insist that every statement made by trump must be false.  we can actual make coherent and reasoned choices 'bout trump statements rather than resorting to reflex denialism.  trump's position regarding syria as a whole?  he has reversed self and we condemn him for doing so in spite o' trump initial claims that he has been consistent regarding syria and the middle east.

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/for-trump-a-steep-learning-curve-leads-to-policy-reversals/ar-BBzPja8?li=AA5a8k&ocid=spartandhp

 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/factcheck/fact-check-trump-faulting-obama-on-syria-contradicts-himself/ar-BBzmCiF?ocid=spartandhp

 

have said from the start that we do not believe trump genuine understood the role o' President, and he indulges in the same kinda alternative facts nonsense as is perpetuated by russia. doesn't mean everything which comes from trump is wrong.

 

continue with the denialism.  ignore russia blocking UN investigation.  concoct (or simple adopt russian version) conspiracy theories which would explain how an independent investigation would diminish the likelihood o' an innocent syria being exonerated. imagine conspiracy theories to refute US sources or established capacity o' radar to identify aircraft. in the end, all your wacky refusal to accept traditional western media sources and western intelligence sources doesn't actual matter as the only folks believing similar is the fellow tinfoil hat nutters... and pretty much all russians.

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2013/0222/Was-Chelyabinsk-meteor-actually-a-meteor-Many-Russians-don-t-think-so.-video

 

well, am gonna go celebrate easter with family, most o' whom is dyed-in-wool tinfoil hat brigade loyalists. joy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps just an opinion piece, and simple stating obvious, but...

 

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/13/opinions/putin-and-trump-fake-news-bros-axelrod/index.html

Edited by Gromnir
  • Like 1

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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if for just one year, governments did not spend anything on their military (besides the salaries of the those working there) and gave that money for research, we could advance our technology by 100 years in a decade

But we have to have strong militaries to ensure a balance in the world and address global concerns like dictatorships

Question: How is it different to be ruled by your own dictators military or by the military of some forgein power?

 

Bennie it should be fine to have other countries being involved in regime change as long as those other countries have the best interest of the country in mind and there must be good reason, like a dictatorship. So to answer your question, you cant have another countries military dominant and visible all the time but other countries military can assist in managing that country

 

There are countries in this world who have citizens that have only ever known, from their own leaders,  grinding poverty, intolerance and abuse of human rights.....those countries deserve to  be happy...who cares if some foreign power gets involved to create a better life for those citizens ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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the only freedom the so called "free world" offers, is letting you choose your cage

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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I once ate a pizza with banana, pineapple, curry and cashew nuts on it.

 

 

If you get all riled up about pinapple on a pizza how about kebab pizza? ;)

 

Both of these are awesome, I had a quattro formaggio with salami today though, I wasn't at any of my local shops so I went for something safe, but kebab pizza is my mainstay pizza.

Civilization, in fact, grows more and more maudlin and hysterical; especially under democracy it tends to degenerate into a mere combat of crazes; the whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, most of them imaginary. - H.L. Mencken

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more blanket denialism

anybody would come to likely conclusion that the navy simple did not update their public site regarding that specific weapon (updating the page don't mean the entry were accurate updated... obvious)

 

 

lol. Good start. I'm betting there's going to be 100% grasping at straws and 100% flim flam in this reply and no evidence, and I'll bet everything on it...

 

Stop deflecting and posting anything else, post evidence that Syria used CW in Khan Sheiktoun.

 

 

 

and those tomahawks has been used over water many times.

 

Not against Russia, who have GPS spoofers. Wow, they work against the likes of Iraq or Sudan without problems, that means they'll work reliably anywhere.

 

And if you're fighting someone without ATGMs tanks are still king.

 

And the alternative is that the US planned out a strike with 59 tomahawks and failed to stop an airfield functioning for even a few hours, an airfield that is now clearly back in service to all practical purposes. Your argument is effectively that the US military equipment is infallible but its leadership is incompetent.

 

planes not targeted on runway 'cause syria has no pilots?

 

If you've got fewer pilots than planes you move all the planes that you can a little bit, and that means onto berms. Berms can then be targeted by cluster munitions.

 

HA! syria and russia got considerable advanced warning,

 

well, an hour. That's considerable if the tomahawks were dropping in for a chat and coffee, but not if they're coming to blow your base to pieces. That's enough to move most planes a bit, but you aren't going to be flying off to T4 and then driving back to move another plane inside 4 hours which seems to be your idea of what happened.

 

you deny simple 'cause proofs come from  US sources or mass media sources,

 

Nope, I deny them because an assertion is literally nothing. An assertion is not and cannot be self supporting, it requires actual evidence- otherwise it's just blind trust. Blankly accepting what is told to you by authority is a sign of a weak, unimaginative and acritical mind; and leads to yellowcake, aluminium tubes and Colin Powell holding vials of 'anthrax' at the UN.

 

 

so when the opportunity to get an independent investigation going regarding the cw attack, one from a source not inherent tainted in zor's mind, the russians predictable veto.

 

Eh? The Russians didn't veto the Bolivian resolution, the west blocked it. Oh dear, you didn't know about the Bolivian resolution? Guess the NYT et al forgot to mention it. Bolivians were sufficiently pissed to vote with Russia though. Seems the west doesn't want an investigation either, they just want to be able to blame Russia for there not being one. Wonder why? Could it be the LACK OF EVIDENCE?

 

The western resolution was pure veto trolling, it assumed guilt, required nothing of the western backed Al Qaeda and friends, required lists of personnel- last time that happened to Russia Al Qaeda looked up the personnel's names and targeted them- and invoked article VII which would never pass muster after Libya.

 

And of course I await, with 'bated breath, the resolution about the unauthorised use of force by the US on Syria. I suspect that's Different, just Different though.

 

irrelevant Trump obsessive compulsion

 

So, not a thing on actual evidence? Nothing, zilch, zero, duck egg, blank. Come on, post some evidence that Syria used CW in Khan Sheiktoun, I dare you.

Edited by Zoraptor
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