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Planescape: Torment EE


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#241
Zoraptor

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Now, if the original release is contained in the EE, that's another thing. I don't think the Baldur's Gate games were (at least, I see no copy of it on mine).

 

 

They are on GOG.

 

Presumably they aren't extras on steam since they were never available there in the first place (cheers for correction, Bartimaeus).



#242
Bartimaeus

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Stupid crappy licensing problems with Wizards of the Coast. You can't get NWN2 on Steam anymore, either...was available for a pretty short time, though, and I got it then. Too bad I can't say the same about the IE games.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 13 April 2017 - 11:12 PM.


#243
SonicMage117

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Again, it's crazy to think people would pay $10 for this small stuff but they could probably easily make that back with this kind of things (I've sold a common card on the community market for $30.00 usd last year - from a $7.99 game just to give you an idea). Plus the remastered audio, cleaned up that Beamdog has done is worth something to people who use HD headphones and decent surround sound speakers.


1. Can you provide proof of that common card being sold for around that? I would be impressed with just $10, but $30? I have very grave doubts about this claim, but if you can back it up, well, there you go. Even with proof of that, it is pretty disingenuous to suggest that you could get even CLOSE to making that off the cards for a game like Baldur's Gate/Planescape - they will be much too common for that. Even games that only get like 10k purchases, it's not going to be anything like that...and for games with a higher amount of purchases, they're just going to be much too widespread for their value to be even remotely close to that, and looking at virtually any other moderately popular game will confirm that. You'd have to be looking at pretty obscure games for their value to be that high, and that's usually more of a case of one or two people selling it and nobody actually buying it for such ridiculous prices.

2. In regards to "remastered audio": misleading, remastered music only, according to Beamdog themselves (planescape.com: "Remastered Music: The full Planescape: Torment soundtrack has been remastered in-game to add more depth to Sigil and the multiverse."). No surprise, once again, as I have said about 3 of 4 times now: it was something that was already done by modders: http://www.shsforums...tutosc-iwd-pst/ In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that's where they got the IDEA and learned what it would take to do it, given that Erephine, the maker of this mod, contributed a huge amount of her work on graphics from her mods to their BG1/2:EEs.
1. I'm not gonna argue with you because that's a pretty illogical reasoning, I've seen items on Steam community market sell for over $100 usd. If you don't want to believe it I'm okay with that. People who have money to burn will do just that. As for my sale, of course I could provide my proof but knowing people here, I can just see someone coming here and saying something like "Did you photoshop or edit the pic?" Because this generation is that paranoid and shallow, so I'll do one better...

http://ianharmon.git...am-card-pricer/

$10.00 extra usd is a small price to get into Torment's market on Steam, and trust me, $10 is nothing for people who are into customizing their profile with a Torment theme and badge. I can promise you that people will buy the game just for the badge alone and never actually install the game to play it because people on Steam are that dedicated.

Specifically on this game, the Torment foils are going for $3-6 bucks, there is plenty enough to make the money back (since there are many). People on Steam always seek to make their money back some how - if they know what they're doing and how to do it honestly (without scamming).

Torment foil prices:
http://www.steamcard...e-appid-466300.

2. I'm curious of how good that mod is, considering that most modders remaster audio/music horribly. I would be afraid to ask what stidio program they "remastered" with and how it compares to Beamdog's remastering. I bet the difference is pretty noticible but I highly doubt anyone will do a legitimate comparison, it will always be just "Remastering music is remastering music, it doesn't take a rocket scientist" but it does, it takes a sound engineer with someone who has an ear for it. I don't know anything about the modder, maybe she does have a degree in music but the chances of that are far more minimal than a CS: Go item selling for $5,000 on Steam within the next hour or two :)

https://youtu.be/84b7RGC-F14

http://read.navi-gam...xpensive_knives

Edited by SonicMage117, 13 April 2017 - 11:30 PM.


#244
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1. I'm not gonna argue with you because that's a pretty illogical reasoning, I've seen items on Steam community market sell for over $100 usd. If you don't want to believe it I'm okay with that. People who have money to burn will do just that. As for my sale, of course I could provide my proof but knowing people here, I can just see someone coming here and saying something like "Did you photoshop or edit the pic?" Because this generation is that paranoid and shallow, so I'll do one better...

http://ianharmon.git...am-card-pricer/

2. And I'm curious of how good that mod is, considering that most modders remaster audio/music horribly. I would be afraid to ask what stidio program they "remastered" with and how it compares to Beamdog's remastering. I bet the difference is pretty noticible but I highly doubt anyone will do a legitimate comparison, it will always be just "Remastering music is remastering music, it doesn't take a rocket scientist" but it does, it takes a sound engineer with someone who has an ear for it. I don't know anything about the modder, maybe she does have a degree in music but the chances of that are far more minimal than a CS: Go item selling for $5,000 on Steam within the next hour or two :)

https://youtu.be/84b7RGC-F14

http://read.navi-gam...xpensive_knives

 

1. Of course you have, but you specifically stated a "common card" (i.e. a non-foil) for $30. For this website, help me out here, I've never used it, what am I supposed to be looking at here? From what I can tell here, the most expensive card for a SET here (e) FOUR six years ago (when this page was generated) was $7.79...for a set of 8 cards, when you stated you sold ONE "common card" for $30. But maybe you're looking at something I'm not? Otherwise, yeah, I'm gonna have to call complete baloney, man. It would be silliness and wishful thinking not to.
 
2. That's funny, because Beamdog's graphical work on sprites and paperdolls (i.e. character graphics) came from HER, an apparent "non-professional". The remastered audio came from the soundtrack CD, likely literally exactly what Beamdog's music came from. Since I don't bloody well own the game, and I have no plans to do so, how about you grab one of the songs from the game files, and I'll do the same and we can compare them?


Edited by Bartimaeus, 13 April 2017 - 11:30 PM.

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#245
SonicMage117

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1. I'm not gonna argue with you because that's a pretty illogical reasoning, I've seen items on Steam community market sell for over $100 usd. If you don't want to believe it I'm okay with that. People who have money to burn will do just that. As for my sale, of course I could provide my proof but knowing people here, I can just see someone coming here and saying something like "Did you photoshop or edit the pic?" Because this generation is that paranoid and shallow, so I'll do one better...http://ianharmon.git...am-card-pricer/
2. And I'm curious of how good that mod is, considering that most modders remaster audio/music horribly. I would be afraid to ask what stidio program they "remastered" with and how it compares to Beamdog's remastering. I bet the difference is pretty noticible but I highly doubt anyone will do a legitimate comparison, it will always be just "Remastering music is remastering music, it doesn't take a rocket scientist" but it does, it takes a sound engineer with someone who has an ear for it. I don't know anything about the modder, maybe she does have a degree in music but the chances of that are far more minimal than a CS: Go item selling for $5,000 on Steam within the next hour or two :)https://youtu.be/84b7RGC-F14http://read.navi-gam...xpensive_knives

 
1. Of course you have, but you specifically stated a "common card" (i.e. a non-foil) for $30. For this website, help me out here, I've never used it, what am I supposed to be looking at here? From what I can tell here, the most expensive card for a SET here (e) FOUR six years ago (when this page was generated) was $7.79...for a set of 8 cards, when you stated you sold ONE "common card" for $30. But maybe you're looking at something I'm not? Otherwise, yeah, I'm gonna have to call complete baloney, man. It would be silliness and wishful thinking not to.
 
2. That's funny, because Beamdog's graphical work on sprites and paperdolls (i.e. character graphics) came from HER, an apparent "non-professional". The remastered audio came from the soundtrack CD, likely literally exactly what Beamdog's music came from. Since I don't bloody well own the game, and I have no plans to do so, how about you grab one of the songs from the game files, and I'll do the same and we can compare them?
It was a common one, not a rare card and it was for a game called Magnetta, now if you look at the cards, they would probably be $5.00 (scratch that, there are no listings for the foil because nobody has one) in the market because time has passed. Of course I still have the reciept in my email, as any but like I said, anyone can say "You could have edited your screenshot" which is why I linked webpages.

And six years ago or not, the fact is that items/cards will sell for insane amounts on Steam. The site that you asked about shows that cards sold for over $400 usd, the other website shows that a CS: Go skin sold for $11,000 and a knife sold for $28,000. I think the point has been made, I just thought it would be better if maybe it didn't come from my mouth. When games first release, the cards and wallpapers are usually high, as time passes, the items downshift in pricing. There are some games however like CS:Go that have a crazy market set up and people utilize it well.

I've also traded a $15.00 game for a $60.00 game to a friend in India because indie games are expensive there and AAA games are cheap. So maybe different currencies have something to do with it as well. Either way, Steam is a great place for the consumer which is why I could never leave it for GoG or Origin but I'm probably mumbling (it's 3:00am here).

#246
Bartimaeus

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It was a common one, not a rare card and it was for a game called Magnetta, now if you look at the cards, they would probably be $5.00 (scratch that, there are no listings for the foil because nobody has one) in the market because time has passed. Of course I still have the reciept in my email, as any but like I said, anyone can say "You could have edited your screenshot" which is why I linked webpages.

And six years ago or not, the fact is that items/cards will sell for insane amounts on Steam. The site that you asked about shows that cards sold for over $400 usd, the other website shows that a CS: Go skin sold for $11,000 and a knife sold for $28,000. I think the point has been made, I just thought it would be better if maybe it didn't come from my mouth. When games first release, the cards and wallpapers are usually high, as time passes, the items downshift in pricing. There are some games however like CS:Go that have a crazy market set up and people utilize it well.

I've also traded a $15.00 game for a $60.00 game to a friend in India because indie games are expensive there and AAA games are cheap. So maybe different currencies have something to do with it as well. Either way, Steam is a great place for the consumer which is why I could never leave it for GoG or Origin but I'm probably mumbling (it's 3:00am here).


We must be having a language barrier issue here or something: what exactly do you qualify as a "common" vs. "rare" card? There are regular trading cards, and there are foil trading cards - nothing less, nothing more. Foil cards drop at probably at a 1:100 (or worse, based on my experiences) ratio compared to the non-foil cards, so it's a bit of a misnomer to call one just a "common card". We wouldn't be having this argument if you had said a "foil" or "rare" trading card to begin with, because I could easily actually believe that depending on the game (as I said, more obscure games tend to make for more valuable cards). The vast, vast majority of people who play games and get cards are not going to ever get a foil card, however.
 
For the sake of science, do you actually own PST:EE? If you do, and it's installed, could you please explore the game directory for some ACM* files (e: unless the format has changed, in which case I'd need a closer look...but it probably hasn't) - those are the music files. If you upload just a few of them to a free filehosting website like mediafire (you can delete them directly after I download them!), I could actually literally do a comparison and upload it to YouTube so people could hear the difference between it and Erephine's work. You asked me to do a comparison, so please, help me out here.

 

As a bonus, I'll even throw in a comparison of them both to the original audio!

 

*And yes, I already have a file converter for converting this to WAV/FLAC for a clean and lossless conversion - though I've never actually really released any mods publicly...yet...I've nevertheless extensively modded and messed around with my own IE games and so have familiarity with the technology.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 14 April 2017 - 12:12 AM.

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#247
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It was a common one, not a rare card and it was for a game called Magnetta, now if you look at the cards, they would probably be $5.00 (scratch that, there are no listings for the foil because nobody has one) in the market because time has passed. Of course I still have the reciept in my email, as any but like I said, anyone can say "You could have edited your screenshot" which is why I linked webpages.
And six years ago or not, the fact is that items/cards will sell for insane amounts on Steam. The site that you asked about shows that cards sold for over $400 usd, the other website shows that a CS: Go skin sold for $11,000 and a knife sold for $28,000. I think the point has been made, I just thought it would be better if maybe it didn't come from my mouth. When games first release, the cards and wallpapers are usually high, as time passes, the items downshift in pricing. There are some games however like CS:Go that have a crazy market set up and people utilize it well.
I've also traded a $15.00 game for a $60.00 game to a friend in India because indie games are expensive there and AAA games are cheap. So maybe different currencies have something to do with it as well. Either way, Steam is a great place for the consumer which is why I could never leave it for GoG or Origin but I'm probably mumbling (it's 3:00am here).

We must be having a language barrier issue here or something: what exactly do you qualify as a "common" vs. "rare" card? There are regular trading cards, and there are foil trading cards - nothing less, nothing more. Foil cards drop at probably at a 1:100 (or worse, based on my experiences) ratio compared to the non-foil cards, so it's a bit of a misnomer to call one just a "common card". We wouldn't be having this argument if you had said a "foil" or "rare" trading card to begin with, because I could easily actually believe that depending on the game (as I said, more obscure games tend make for more valuable cards). The vast, vast majority of people who play games and get cards are not going to ever get a foil card, however.
 
For the sake of science, do you actually own PST:EE? If you do, and it's installed, could you please explore the game directory for some ACM files (e: unless the format has changed, in which case I'd need a closer look...but it probably hasn't) - those are the music files. If you upload just a few of them to a free filehosting website like mediafire (you can delete them directly after I download them!), I could actually literally do a comparison and upload it to YouTube so people could hear the difference between it and Erephine's work. You asked me to do a comparison, so please, help me out here.
My bad, you're absolutely right! It was error on my part, I usually considered foil as common because I thought that the price was only pushed higher for the special badge that they work towards but now that you explained that it makes more sense. Plus I'm tired so I probably don't make much sense anyways lol

I don't own PST:EE yet, I'll probably get it soon though and I'll do that :) I think it would be a pretty cool experiment. I was hoping that Beamdog would take full audio to 5.1 channel support. Homeworld Remastered was a great example of how audio/soundtrack could be remastered which I wish was the amount of care put into every re-released project.

https://youtu.be/ufA6gDllptw
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#248
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Did they "remaster" the audio for either of the Baldur's Gates? If so, I could do one of those, too. :)

 

P.S. That Homeworld video is a pretty substantial improvement over the original.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 14 April 2017 - 12:25 AM.

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#249
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I definitely don't understand why anyone spends money on Steam cards.  


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#250
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Did they "remaster" the audio for either of the Baldur's Gates? If so, I could do one of those, too. :)
 

I have no clue, I checked out the Steam page this morning and it looks like Beamdog didn't go into specifics, it just says "Over 400 improvements over the original" :(

I definitely don't understand why anyone spends money on Steam cards.

Me either. I'm at level 21 and while I'm guilty of spending money on things like emoticons, cards and wallpapers (for less than a buck) in the past, I quit when I reached level 15.

#251
Labadal

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I've spend €7.50 or something on cards and gotten approximately €100+ from them. As long as I keep this ratio, I'm fine. (Haven't bought a card in years, though.)



#252
Bartimaeus

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I have obtained a copy (more or less) of the Mortuary from the EE. I'm going to show the all technical differences first, but if you just want the straight up "listen to it on YouTube" comparison test, skip all of this post until you get to the linked YouTube videos below.

 

My copy of the EE song is not actually a perfect copy, but rather a recorded copy, and what this means is that while it looks and sounds more or less identical, it is not *perfectly* identical. We can still make some conclusions based off of that, though. In fact, looking at the songs' waveforms and spectograms, it is quite literally just a slightly compressed version of the official soundtrack CD version of the Mortuary - either the song is slightly compressed, or my recording of it is.

 

Waveform (EE on top, soundtrack on bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_08-45-05.png

 

Spectrogram (EE on top, soundtrack on bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_08-44-37.png

 

As you can see, it is nearly perfectly identical, and I'd say any differences are almost 100% likely to be the fault of it being a recording than anything else. It's about as well as they could do without having the master recordings, which I knew they almost certainly did not have to begin with (as it seems very little of the original material of the IE games survived either BioWare's or Interplay's record keeping abilities). What this effectively means is that one, it is significantly higher quality, and two, it is also significantly LOUDER than the original music.

 

Waveform (original game music on top, soundtrack which I'll be using instead of the EE recording because they're nearly the same on bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_08-47-39.png

 

Spectrogram (original game music on top, soundtrack on bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_08-51-06.png

 

Firstly, the original game music is only mono instead of stereo like the EE/soundtrack version of the song. As you can see, though, the EE/soundtrack version of the song is also significantly louder than the original game music, but has a much more complete frequency range. Since music volume can presumably be individually changed vs. the rest of the game audio (and I imagine the EE actually has a default music setting to make it a little closer to the original game volume), overall, this is well and fine and about the best they could do, as mentioned before. The soundtrack (and EE) uses a technical and effective 16bit sample size and 44.1kHz sampling rate in stereo (i.e. dual channel audio), while the original game audio is technically 16bit/22kHz in mono (i.e. single channel audio), but is effectively 16bit/11kHz in mono. The reason for this distinction is that the actual audio spectrum of the original game audio only goes up to 11kHz, as you can see above. So how does it compare to Erephine's 1pp mod? Well...Erephine seems to have been working with a technical limitation of 16bit/22kHz/stereo. As such, in terms of fidelity, her mod automatically loses, technically speaking.

 

Waveform (original game audio on top, Erephine's mod in the middle, and soundtrack on the bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_09-02-12.png

 

Spectrogram (original game audio on top, Erephine's mod in the middle, and soundtrack on the bottom):

audacity_2017-04-15_09-03-50.png

 

Interestingly, it seems as though Erephine took pains to make volume levels of her music to more or less match the volume of the original game. Nevertheless, you can see a big part of the spectrum culled compared to the soundtrack version due to technical limitations, and as such, it is a technical loss, at the very least. And so the final question is...what is the actual listening difference?

 

 

(dropbox link, which isn't compressed again like YouTube is: https://dl.dropboxus...dio Test 1.wmv)

 

Test one. Each fade-in/fade-out signifies changing between one of the different versions of this song - can you tell which is which, or the difference at all? The soundtrack/EE version has been quietened down a little bit to more or less get to the level of Erephine's, so you can't tell the difference just by volume. A (moderately) difficult test to pass, I think.

 

 

(dropbox link: https://dl.dropboxus...dio Test 2.wmv)

 

Test two. A certain part of the song (15 seconds) is played three times, each time a different version. This test is much easier to pass than the first - I feel pretty sure I could've done it even not knowing which was which.

 

I have not revealed which is which, but I have the Audacity project saved which says. Anyone care to try to figure out which is which by ear? The original game audio should be pretty obvious, but I wish you all the best of luck for telling the difference between Erephine's 1pp and the EE, particularly for the first video. Nevertheless, it is good that Beamdog dealt with the technical limitation of 22kHz, even if you can't really actually much hear the difference here. A few songs - combat songs, I'd hazard a guess - would possibly make for a better hearing test than this Mortuary song.

 

P.S. Please don't quote this post for length/sanity reasons.


Edited by Bartimaeus, 15 April 2017 - 07:52 AM.

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#253
Gorgon

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That doesn't explain why you can't buy the originals by themselves though.


If you are trying to sell a new version of a product, why on earth would you would you want to share shelf space with a discounted version of the product if it can be avoided? Although it sounds like WotC make that call instead of Beamdog.

 

Well, won't you end up in a George Lucas type situation sooner or later. You have a strong brand and you change it just a little several times over to squeeze more money out of it, in the end you will have destroyed something valuable.

 

We are a long ways from that I know, but still. 



#254
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Has Star Wars really been destroyed though?

 

There are always going to be groups of people that are going to get up in arms with changes, but it is rarely a sound business strategy to stand pat and never make changes. They've been squeezing money out of Star Wars for decades and it still seems to be going pretty strong.



#255
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I don't think so, I think Star Wars has gotten stronger if anything(at least for now) but.. looks like we're going to have yearly releases and a bunch of spin-offs. Will that hurt the fanbase? Only time will tell. Some people enjoy when projects take time to release and have less chance to "burn-out" the audience.

I felt like The Force Awakens was amazing and Rogue One was sub-par compared to it. I'm not expecting The Last Jedi to be great but it will probably be good at least.

#256
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All this talk about Torment got me to install my old 4 CD version of it. It took me about an hour to get widescreen mods and other stuff working. I don't think it would be an authentic Torment experience without Interplay bugging me to register the game for news about their new games and "You'll be entered in our monthly New Customer contest for FREE games and other cool stuff!" every time I start Torment.


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#257
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...

Now that is impressive work, Bart - you have also just sold a copy of PST: EE :-P Well okay, that is a lie for effect, I won't be buying it for full price considering my current DVD version was imported from Britain for half that price.
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#258
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...


I'd love to take a guess, if only my phone had an optical out! :(

#259
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That doesn't explain why you can't buy the originals by themselves though.


If you are trying to sell a new version of a product, why on earth would you would you want to share shelf space with a discounted version of the product if it can be avoided? Although it sounds like WotC make that call instead of Beamdog.

 

Well, won't you end up in a George Lucas type situation sooner or later. You have a strong brand and you change it just a little several times over to squeeze more money out of it, in the end you will have destroyed something valuable.

 

 

I think that Lucas genuinely thought he was improving things and was not so much concerned about 'making money'. He always resisted having the unaltered original trilogy released at all after his SE changes were made, and he'd make more money offering both versions since you can rely on some people wanting to buy both, and when people were format shifting from VHS to DVD they'd have to rebuy one or the other at the same price anyway. I'm sure he wasn't crying about the money but he was going to get that anyway in very large part, but he mainly wanted everyone to accept his 'vision' as encapsulated in the SEs.


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#260
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...

Now that is impressive work, Bart - you have also just sold a copy of PST: EE :-P Well okay, that is a lie for effect, I won't be buying it for full price considering my current DVD version was imported from Britain for half that price.

 

 

I'm curious as to whether the BG:EEs got the same treatment...maybe I'll look into that, too.






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