Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Your Favourite Paladin Order and why?


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14837 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
One of the best things PoE did was decoupling paladins from deities.

The original meaning of the word paladin is "person who's close to the emperor" - which totally fits the Darcozzi Paladin.

Most other (current) connotations of the word paladin (holy warrior and whatnot) came later with D&D.

I'm glad that PoE didn't follow that one-dimensional and somewhat boring approach but depicted paladins as orders of warriors that are zealous and dedicated to a common goal/philosophy/whatever, but are not necessarily bound to a god. Still there are some orders who are (Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr for example).

Same with monks: not tied to certain gods at all but rather to a special philosophy. That's a good thing.

Gods have their priests and that's enough in my opinion.

My favorite orders are Darcozzi and Bleak Walkers by the way - mainly because of their special talents. Darcozzis are great ACC supporters and Bleak Walkers are among the best alpha strikers.

Edited by Boeroer, 26 January 2018 - 03:03 AM.

  • draego and Juodas Varnas like this

#22
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

One of the best things PoE did was decoupling paladins from deities.

The original meaning of the word paladin is "person who's close to the emperor" - which totally fits the Darcozzi Paladin.

Most other (current) connotations of the word paladin (holy warrior and whatnot) came later with D&D.

I'm glad that PoE didn't follow that one-dimensional and somewhat boring approach but depicted paladins as orders of warriors that are zealous and dedicated to a common goal/philosophy/whatever, but are not necessarily bound to a god. Still there are some orders who are (Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr for example).

Same with monks: not tied to certain gods at all but rather to a special philosophy. That's a good thing.

Gods have their priests and that's enough in my opinion.

My favorite orders are Darcozzi and Bleak Walkers by the way - mainly because of their special talents. Darcozzis are great ACC supporters and Bleak Walkers are among the best alpha strikers.

 

Well, I have to disagree.  I think that it's a bad thing to not have paladins tied to deities.  You see it as one dimensional.  I don't.  To me, it's nearly sacrilegious for them to not be linked to a deity. To me, the PoE form of paladin is what's boring.  Give me my Holy Warriors who are looking to slay dragons and so forth!!!  :dragon:   :biggrin: 

 

As for monks, I never saw them as a group that'd be tied to deities, though I suppose it might depend on what one thinks of when they think of "monks".  If one is thinking of them as martial artists, yeah, I don't see that as being tied to deities.  OTOH, if one seems monks in a more religious sense, like real world monks who are just religious people who aren't really priests as such and who live in monasteries, then I suppose that they should be tied to deities.  That said, who's really going to want to play that sort of monk?  Doesn't even seem like a playable class.  But the more martial artsey monks seem like they'd be off contemplating all sorts of things, as well as learning their fighting style(s), and so forth.  But they seem more ... secularly philosophical rather than religious to me.



#23
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14837 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
That's because the first time you came in contact with a paladin was with D&D and that ruined the whole paladin theme for you. ;)

I think it's better to have a more "open" approach to paladins. They can form an order of zealous god-followers, but they can also form an order of zealous contract-followers.

By the way the Goldpact Knights also kind of follow the teachings of a god: Woedica is called Oathbinder and punishes people for breaking oaths. Goldpact Knights always keep their oath once the oath/contract is signed. Maybe a lot of them follow her teachings.

So it also depends which gods there are. Imagine a paladin of Skaen: not very paladin-like in terms of D&D and friends.

In PoE, what all paladins have in common is zeal. The reason behind their zeal can be multiple things and I think that makes paladins in general less one-dimensional than the usual holy warrior theme which is boring for me. I mean they can be and thus the common D&D-Paladin fan can build such a holy warrior, but they don't have to be, which opens more choice for players with a more differentiated taste when it comes to zealous characters.

Edited by Boeroer, 26 January 2018 - 03:30 AM.

  • Torm51, draego and Juodas Varnas like this

#24
Torm51

Torm51

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1756 posts
  • Location:Shieldbearer Outpost somewhere in Eora
  • Steam:extol51
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I realize that this is a thread necro, and I'm definitely late to the party. But this is an interesting topic, and it seems better to just thread necro than create a new thread on the same topic.


I think that there are two very different ways to look at the question of favorite paladin order. There's the which order's abilities/talents do you like best. And then there's the which order's background do you like best. Being more of a role player, I prefer the second question.

I'm rather old school when it comes to paladins. I personally don't like this semi-supporting leadership style of paladin. I prefer the old school "holy warrior" style of paladin. It seems a lot more fun to me. But sadly, that's not what's in PoE.

Furthermore, I don't particularly like the Darcozzi or Gold Pact Knight orders, because I don't see any central concept or ideology that defines them. The Gold Pact Knights seem more like a mercenary group than an order of paladins. And fighting for whomever pays you the most hardly seems like an ideology that should define a group of paladins. As for the Darcozzi, I can't even go that far. I have no idea at all what binds them together, other than being guardians and ambassadors of the Darcozzi family, which again hardly seems like something that should define a group of paladins. In both of these cases, they seem like groups of warriors, with the GPK's being more mercs while the Darcozzi being more guardsmen. But either way, not paladins, at least as I would see "paladins".

As for the Bleak Walkers, I can see them as paladins, almost certainly evil, though it's hard to see a binding ideology. Their description seems to describe more of means to their ideology than an ideology itself. But I have no idea what the ideology their brutal and merciless nature exists to support.

This leaves the Kind Wayfarers and the Shieldbearers. I can see these two as old school paladins of roughly similar flavor. Protectors of the innocent, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe what's really missing, at least for me, are ties to Eora's deities, since tying an order to a specific deity would pretty much define an order's philosophy. If an order was linked to Magran, a paladin would be a champion of the goddess of war and fire, and so forth, for example.


Anyways, looking at the paladin orders from an talent perspective, it seems to me that they're all relative weak and unappealing. The only talent that seems at all potent is Pallegina's Wrath of the Five Suns talent. It seems to me that other than the Faith and Conviction dispositions, the 5 playable orders are all rather generic in their abilities because their talents are so lame. Oh, sure, you've got to work your dispositions during your game play, and that's a good thing. But in terms of abilities, all paladins seem like they're pretty much the same in combat.

It would be nice if there was more differentiation between the orders in terms of what they bring to combat. It might also be nice if each order had specific requirements or strongly favored attributes that related to that order's special skills, talents, and/or abilities, so that paladins of different orders didn't have so much of a sameness about them.

On PoTD Inspiring Liberation is GREAT. + 10 Accuracy thay stacks with everything that last at a base line of 20 seconds with 10 INT is awesome in dragon fights. Helping CC land reliably. But you don’t like Darcozzi :p

Darcozzi are a Kingsguard like in Game of Thrones. I like it.

I used to be old school like you about Paladins but I like the take on them in this game. You don’t have to follow a god to be zealous about something. And I like the leader concept better than the D and D version But to each his own of course. I bet you were jealous of those Berathian Paladins in Raedrics Keep!

Edited by Torm51, 26 January 2018 - 03:54 AM.


#25
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

 

I realize that this is a thread necro, and I'm definitely late to the party. But this is an interesting topic, and it seems better to just thread necro than create a new thread on the same topic.


I think that there are two very different ways to look at the question of favorite paladin order. There's the which order's abilities/talents do you like best. And then there's the which order's background do you like best. Being more of a role player, I prefer the second question.

I'm rather old school when it comes to paladins. I personally don't like this semi-supporting leadership style of paladin. I prefer the old school "holy warrior" style of paladin. It seems a lot more fun to me. But sadly, that's not what's in PoE.

Furthermore, I don't particularly like the Darcozzi or Gold Pact Knight orders, because I don't see any central concept or ideology that defines them. The Gold Pact Knights seem more like a mercenary group than an order of paladins. And fighting for whomever pays you the most hardly seems like an ideology that should define a group of paladins. As for the Darcozzi, I can't even go that far. I have no idea at all what binds them together, other than being guardians and ambassadors of the Darcozzi family, which again hardly seems like something that should define a group of paladins. In both of these cases, they seem like groups of warriors, with the GPK's being more mercs while the Darcozzi being more guardsmen. But either way, not paladins, at least as I would see "paladins".

As for the Bleak Walkers, I can see them as paladins, almost certainly evil, though it's hard to see a binding ideology. Their description seems to describe more of means to their ideology than an ideology itself. But I have no idea what the ideology their brutal and merciless nature exists to support.

This leaves the Kind Wayfarers and the Shieldbearers. I can see these two as old school paladins of roughly similar flavor. Protectors of the innocent, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe what's really missing, at least for me, are ties to Eora's deities, since tying an order to a specific deity would pretty much define an order's philosophy. If an order was linked to Magran, a paladin would be a champion of the goddess of war and fire, and so forth, for example.


Anyways, looking at the paladin orders from an talent perspective, it seems to me that they're all relative weak and unappealing. The only talent that seems at all potent is Pallegina's Wrath of the Five Suns talent. It seems to me that other than the Faith and Conviction dispositions, the 5 playable orders are all rather generic in their abilities because their talents are so lame. Oh, sure, you've got to work your dispositions during your game play, and that's a good thing. But in terms of abilities, all paladins seem like they're pretty much the same in combat.

It would be nice if there was more differentiation between the orders in terms of what they bring to combat. It might also be nice if each order had specific requirements or strongly favored attributes that related to that order's special skills, talents, and/or abilities, so that paladins of different orders didn't have so much of a sameness about them.

On PoTD Inspiring Liberation is GREAT. + 10 Accuracy thay stacks with everything that last at a base line of 20 seconds with 10 INT is awesome in dragon fights. Helping CC land reliably. But you don’t like Darcozzi :p

Darcozzi are a Kingsguard like in Game of Thrones. I like it.

I used to be old school like you about Paladins but I like the take on them in this game. You don’t have to follow a god to be zealous about something. And I like the leader concept better than the D and D version But to each his own of course. I bet you were jealous of those Berathian Paladins in Raedrics Keep!

 

 

A.  I don't do POTD. 

 

B.  Never watched Game of Thrones.  Heck, I don't think that I've even had cable in more than 10 years.  Just wasn't worth the ridiculously high price IMO.  And on principle, I hate channel bundling, which is another reason I refuse to get cable.

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

D. I don't like the leader concept because if you have a group of paladins, like those Berathian Paladins, they can't ALL be leaders.  Too many chiefs, not enough indians.  But when you're talking about holy warriors, well, you avoid that problem.  or if the term "holy warrior" doesn't work for you, think instead of them as "champions" (of their deity).  A champion is still a holy warrior of sorts, though not necessarily a zealot in the colloquial sense.  They may be leaders, but not necessarily so.  They'd be warriors chosen and blessed by their deity to be one of that deity's chosen champions in this world (Eora, in this case). 

 

(FYI, I'm thinking of David Weber's War God series, where the primary character, Bahzell Bahnakson, is a Champion of the god of war and justice, Tomanak.  He's no zealot by any stretch of the imagination.  Arguably, he's not even all that "holy" a warrior.  He's certainly not religious.  He doesn't really see Tomanak as a god to be worshiped.  He tends to see Tomanak as being more like his really, REALLY super powerful boss, in whose name Bahzell fights.  And that's OK with Tomanak because he wants Bahzell to be exactly who he is, not some boot-licking toady.)

 

 

Frankly, I think that all of the abilities we see in the game could be easily enough explained without needing this leader foolishness.  In a very real sense, the abilities we see paladins get in PoE aren't all that different from those Paladins got in D&D, at least in the IE D&D games.  They're just not bundled up as "spells".  But they still do similar kinds of things.  Help companions.  Hurt enemies.  That sort of thing.

 

 

 

Anyways...

 

I wish that the devs had done more to create a lot more differentiation between the paladin orders, because right now, there seems be very little differentiation, except for how you have to role play a pally PC relative to your order's F+C dispositions.


  • dunehunter likes this

#26
Torm51

Torm51

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1756 posts
  • Location:Shieldbearer Outpost somewhere in Eora
  • Steam:extol51
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I realize that this is a thread necro, and I'm definitely late to the party. But this is an interesting topic, and it seems better to just thread necro than create a new thread on the same topic.


I think that there are two very different ways to look at the question of favorite paladin order. There's the which order's abilities/talents do you like best. And then there's the which order's background do you like best. Being more of a role player, I prefer the second question.

I'm rather old school when it comes to paladins. I personally don't like this semi-supporting leadership style of paladin. I prefer the old school "holy warrior" style of paladin. It seems a lot more fun to me. But sadly, that's not what's in PoE.

Furthermore, I don't particularly like the Darcozzi or Gold Pact Knight orders, because I don't see any central concept or ideology that defines them. The Gold Pact Knights seem more like a mercenary group than an order of paladins. And fighting for whomever pays you the most hardly seems like an ideology that should define a group of paladins. As for the Darcozzi, I can't even go that far. I have no idea at all what binds them together, other than being guardians and ambassadors of the Darcozzi family, which again hardly seems like something that should define a group of paladins. In both of these cases, they seem like groups of warriors, with the GPK's being more mercs while the Darcozzi being more guardsmen. But either way, not paladins, at least as I would see "paladins".

As for the Bleak Walkers, I can see them as paladins, almost certainly evil, though it's hard to see a binding ideology. Their description seems to describe more of means to their ideology than an ideology itself. But I have no idea what the ideology their brutal and merciless nature exists to support.

This leaves the Kind Wayfarers and the Shieldbearers. I can see these two as old school paladins of roughly similar flavor. Protectors of the innocent, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe what's really missing, at least for me, are ties to Eora's deities, since tying an order to a specific deity would pretty much define an order's philosophy. If an order was linked to Magran, a paladin would be a champion of the goddess of war and fire, and so forth, for example.


Anyways, looking at the paladin orders from an talent perspective, it seems to me that they're all relative weak and unappealing. The only talent that seems at all potent is Pallegina's Wrath of the Five Suns talent. It seems to me that other than the Faith and Conviction dispositions, the 5 playable orders are all rather generic in their abilities because their talents are so lame. Oh, sure, you've got to work your dispositions during your game play, and that's a good thing. But in terms of abilities, all paladins seem like they're pretty much the same in combat.

It would be nice if there was more differentiation between the orders in terms of what they bring to combat. It might also be nice if each order had specific requirements or strongly favored attributes that related to that order's special skills, talents, and/or abilities, so that paladins of different orders didn't have so much of a sameness about them.

On PoTD Inspiring Liberation is GREAT. + 10 Accuracy thay stacks with everything that last at a base line of 20 seconds with 10 INT is awesome in dragon fights. Helping CC land reliably. But you don’t like Darcozzi :p

Darcozzi are a Kingsguard like in Game of Thrones. I like it.

I used to be old school like you about Paladins but I like the take on them in this game. You don’t have to follow a god to be zealous about something. And I like the leader concept better than the D and D version But to each his own of course. I bet you were jealous of those Berathian Paladins in Raedrics Keep!
A. I don't do POTD.

B. Never watched Game of Thrones. Heck, I don't think that I've even had cable in more than 10 years. Just wasn't worth the ridiculously high price IMO. And on principle, I hate channel bundling, which is another reason I refuse to get cable.

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities. To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter. I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

D. I don't like the leader concept because if you have a group of paladins, like those Berathian Paladins, they can't ALL be leaders. Too many chiefs, not enough indians. But when you're talking about holy warriors, well, you avoid that problem. or if the term "holy warrior" doesn't work for you, think instead of them as "champions" (of their deity). A champion is still a holy warrior of sorts, though not necessarily a zealot in the colloquial sense. They may be leaders, but not necessarily so. They'd be warriors chosen and blessed by their deity to be one of that deity's chosen champions in this world (Eora, in this case).

(FYI, I'm thinking of David Weber's War God series, where the primary character, Bahzell Bahnakson, is a Champion of the god of war and justice, Tomanak. He's no zealot by any stretch of the imagination. Arguably, he's not even all that "holy" a warrior. He's certainly not religious. He doesn't really see Tomanak as a god to be worshiped. He tends to see Tomanak as being more like his really, REALLY super powerful boss, in whose name Bahzell fights. And that's OK with Tomanak because he wants Bahzell to be exactly who he is, not some boot-licking toady.)


Frankly, I think that all of the abilities we see in the game could be easily enough explained without needing this leader foolishness. In a very real sense, the abilities we see paladins get in PoE aren't all that different from those Paladins got in D&D, at least in the IE D&D games. They're just not bundled up as "spells". But they still do similar kinds of things. Help companions. Hurt enemies. That sort of thing.



Anyways...

I wish that the devs had done more to create a lot more differentiation between the paladin orders, because right now, there seems be very little differentiation, except for how you have to role play a pally PC relative to your order's F+C dispositions.
All fair points. You can also read GoT :p that’s where I first heard of them! I see what you are saying though too many Chiefs not enough Indians. But to be honest I was a Marine and we had the same ethos in that we train everyone to be a leader from a Private to the Commendant. So that if your lieutenant is dead the sergeant has no issue taking over and the sergeant is out the corporal is trained to lead etc. That being said there is still a rank structure and in training and combat chain of command is followed. I think it’s the same with the Paladin Orders in this setting.
Also not everyone in the Knights Templar was a Templar they had support troops. I would think it the same for the orders here.

I do like D and D Paladin style as well though. As far as differentiating other then Disposition I think might be a tough to balance issue?

I like PoTD group play but that’s me :)

PS PS I agree that none of the order talents are real difference makers save Darcozzi Inspiring Liberation and that’s only on a certain difficulty. Some are ok though Remember Rakhan Field makes Bleak Walkers the best Alpha strike Paladins as no other order can add an extra damage type to their FoD. Also Goldpact Knight Immunity to mind control can be great. Bait a mind control by popping an ally out of stealth then hit them with Liberating Exhortation and they are immune The AI has cool downs on some abilities like that so they won’t be able to cast it again for a while. It’s more niche but it really works. Enduring Flames is good against high HP enemies.

Also the Sword and the Shepherd from Kind Wayfarers a nice quick heal when you need something faster then Lay on Hands or an Aoe Heal. Strange Mercy is a stronger heal but it’s not on command you need a Kill.

Shield bearer talents need work in my personal case as I play PoTD and deflection is your second least useful defense. Last being Will and most important being Fort. Giving extra deflection to allies is meh. Deflection is most useful in trash fights and in trash fights you don’t need much of it.

Edited by Torm51, 26 January 2018 - 06:35 AM.

  • Crucis likes this

#27
Juodas Varnas

Juodas Varnas

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 686 posts
  • Location:Grand Duchy of Lithuania
  • Deadfire Backer

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.


  • Torm51 likes this

#28
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

 

 

 

I realize that this is a thread necro, and I'm definitely late to the party. But this is an interesting topic, and it seems better to just thread necro than create a new thread on the same topic.


I think that there are two very different ways to look at the question of favorite paladin order. There's the which order's abilities/talents do you like best. And then there's the which order's background do you like best. Being more of a role player, I prefer the second question.

I'm rather old school when it comes to paladins. I personally don't like this semi-supporting leadership style of paladin. I prefer the old school "holy warrior" style of paladin. It seems a lot more fun to me. But sadly, that's not what's in PoE.

Furthermore, I don't particularly like the Darcozzi or Gold Pact Knight orders, because I don't see any central concept or ideology that defines them. The Gold Pact Knights seem more like a mercenary group than an order of paladins. And fighting for whomever pays you the most hardly seems like an ideology that should define a group of paladins. As for the Darcozzi, I can't even go that far. I have no idea at all what binds them together, other than being guardians and ambassadors of the Darcozzi family, which again hardly seems like something that should define a group of paladins. In both of these cases, they seem like groups of warriors, with the GPK's being more mercs while the Darcozzi being more guardsmen. But either way, not paladins, at least as I would see "paladins".

As for the Bleak Walkers, I can see them as paladins, almost certainly evil, though it's hard to see a binding ideology. Their description seems to describe more of means to their ideology than an ideology itself. But I have no idea what the ideology their brutal and merciless nature exists to support.

This leaves the Kind Wayfarers and the Shieldbearers. I can see these two as old school paladins of roughly similar flavor. Protectors of the innocent, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe what's really missing, at least for me, are ties to Eora's deities, since tying an order to a specific deity would pretty much define an order's philosophy. If an order was linked to Magran, a paladin would be a champion of the goddess of war and fire, and so forth, for example.


Anyways, looking at the paladin orders from an talent perspective, it seems to me that they're all relative weak and unappealing. The only talent that seems at all potent is Pallegina's Wrath of the Five Suns talent. It seems to me that other than the Faith and Conviction dispositions, the 5 playable orders are all rather generic in their abilities because their talents are so lame. Oh, sure, you've got to work your dispositions during your game play, and that's a good thing. But in terms of abilities, all paladins seem like they're pretty much the same in combat.

It would be nice if there was more differentiation between the orders in terms of what they bring to combat. It might also be nice if each order had specific requirements or strongly favored attributes that related to that order's special skills, talents, and/or abilities, so that paladins of different orders didn't have so much of a sameness about them.

On PoTD Inspiring Liberation is GREAT. + 10 Accuracy thay stacks with everything that last at a base line of 20 seconds with 10 INT is awesome in dragon fights. Helping CC land reliably. But you don’t like Darcozzi :p

Darcozzi are a Kingsguard like in Game of Thrones. I like it.

I used to be old school like you about Paladins but I like the take on them in this game. You don’t have to follow a god to be zealous about something. And I like the leader concept better than the D and D version But to each his own of course. I bet you were jealous of those Berathian Paladins in Raedrics Keep!
A. I don't do POTD.

B. Never watched Game of Thrones. Heck, I don't think that I've even had cable in more than 10 years. Just wasn't worth the ridiculously high price IMO. And on principle, I hate channel bundling, which is another reason I refuse to get cable.

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities. To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter. I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

D. I don't like the leader concept because if you have a group of paladins, like those Berathian Paladins, they can't ALL be leaders. Too many chiefs, not enough indians. But when you're talking about holy warriors, well, you avoid that problem. or if the term "holy warrior" doesn't work for you, think instead of them as "champions" (of their deity). A champion is still a holy warrior of sorts, though not necessarily a zealot in the colloquial sense. They may be leaders, but not necessarily so. They'd be warriors chosen and blessed by their deity to be one of that deity's chosen champions in this world (Eora, in this case).

(FYI, I'm thinking of David Weber's War God series, where the primary character, Bahzell Bahnakson, is a Champion of the god of war and justice, Tomanak. He's no zealot by any stretch of the imagination. Arguably, he's not even all that "holy" a warrior. He's certainly not religious. He doesn't really see Tomanak as a god to be worshiped. He tends to see Tomanak as being more like his really, REALLY super powerful boss, in whose name Bahzell fights. And that's OK with Tomanak because he wants Bahzell to be exactly who he is, not some boot-licking toady.)


Frankly, I think that all of the abilities we see in the game could be easily enough explained without needing this leader foolishness. In a very real sense, the abilities we see paladins get in PoE aren't all that different from those Paladins got in D&D, at least in the IE D&D games. They're just not bundled up as "spells". But they still do similar kinds of things. Help companions. Hurt enemies. That sort of thing.



Anyways...

I wish that the devs had done more to create a lot more differentiation between the paladin orders, because right now, there seems be very little differentiation, except for how you have to role play a pally PC relative to your order's F+C dispositions.
All fair points. You can also read GoT :p that’s where I first heard of them! I see what you are saying though too many Chiefs not enough Indians. But to be honest I was a Marine and we had the same ethos in that we train everyone to be a leader from a Private to the Commendant. So that if your lieutenant is dead the sergeant has no issue taking over and the sergeant is out the corporal is trained to lead etc. That being said there is still a rank structure and in training and combat chain of command is followed. I think it’s the same with the Paladin Orders in this setting.
Also not everyone in the Knights Templar was a Templar they had support troops. I would think it the same for the orders here.

I do like D and D Paladin style as well though. As far as differentiating other then Disposition I think might be a tough to balance issue?

I like PoTD group play but that’s me :)

PS PS I agree that none of the order talents are real difference makers save Darcozzi Inspiring Liberation and that’s only on a certain difficulty. Some are ok though Remember Rakhan Field makes Bleak Walkers the best Alpha strike Paladins as no other order can add an extra damage type to their FoD. Also Goldpact Knight Immunity to mind crontrol is great. Their Enduring Flames DoT can also be extremely punishing against bosses. Bait a mind control by popping an ally out of stealth then hit them with Liberating Exhirtation and they are immune. The AI has cool downs on some abilities like that so they won’t be able to cast it again for a while. It’s more niche but it really works.

Also the Sword and the Shepherd from Kind Wayfarers a nice quick heal when you need something faster then Lay on Hands or an Aoe Heal. Strange Mercy is a stronger heal but it’s not on command you need a Kill.

Shield bearer talents need work in my personal case as I play PoTD and deflection is your second least useful defense. Last being Will and most important being Fort. Giving extra deflection to allies is meh. Deflection is most useful in trash fights and in trash fights you don’t need much of it.

 

 

 

I get that not everyone in the KT's was a Templar.  It's the same in the Dave Weber War God series.  Not all warriors in the order of Tomanak were champions.  Heck, as the story goes, there were only 19 champions for the entire continent.  And they weren't really members of the Order, per se.  The Order actually existed to support the Champions.  And there were various ranks, and lots of "lay brothers" who were the Order's soldiers.  The Champions were essentially Tomanak's appointed generals for the Order.  Where they went, the Order followed.  The Order selected its members.  The god Tomanak selected His champions.

 

Regarding differentiating, seems to me that it'd be no more difficult to balance than any other class related balance related work.  Another reason I wish that the paladin's had been linked to dieties is for the differentiation.  I would have loved to see MUCH more wildly differentiated paladins, above and beyond merely "good" or "evil" paladins.

 

The devs could have selected deities who covered a WIDE array of different things.  Magran, a goddess of war and flame.  And perhaps her paladins might have some flame based abilities.  Or Galawain, the nature God of the Hunt.  Imagine what a champion of that god might be like.  Perhaps almost like a cross between a "paladin" and a ranger, a tree-hugging paladin, I suppose.  Or Eothas, perhaps the most "good" god of the bunch, whose champions might be the most traditional goody two-shoes of paladins.  Or Hylea, the goddess of the birds and sky.  Perhaps her champions might have some weather related abilities, like rain based or call lightning.

 

It just seems to me that this could have been incredibly interesting and differentiated.



#29
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.

 

 

It's not about making one setting conform to another.  It's about not LIKING one setting's definition of paladins and wishing that it was something else.



#30
Juodas Varnas

Juodas Varnas

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 686 posts
  • Location:Grand Duchy of Lithuania
  • Deadfire Backer

 

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.

 

 

It's not about making one setting conform to another.  It's about not LIKING one setting's definition of paladins and wishing that it was something else.

 



#31
Torm51

Torm51

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1756 posts
  • Location:Shieldbearer Outpost somewhere in Eora
  • Steam:extol51
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

 

 

 

I realize that this is a thread necro, and I'm definitely late to the party. But this is an interesting topic, and it seems better to just thread necro than create a new thread on the same topic.


I think that there are two very different ways to look at the question of favorite paladin order. There's the which order's abilities/talents do you like best. And then there's the which order's background do you like best. Being more of a role player, I prefer the second question.

I'm rather old school when it comes to paladins. I personally don't like this semi-supporting leadership style of paladin. I prefer the old school "holy warrior" style of paladin. It seems a lot more fun to me. But sadly, that's not what's in PoE.

Furthermore, I don't particularly like the Darcozzi or Gold Pact Knight orders, because I don't see any central concept or ideology that defines them. The Gold Pact Knights seem more like a mercenary group than an order of paladins. And fighting for whomever pays you the most hardly seems like an ideology that should define a group of paladins. As for the Darcozzi, I can't even go that far. I have no idea at all what binds them together, other than being guardians and ambassadors of the Darcozzi family, which again hardly seems like something that should define a group of paladins. In both of these cases, they seem like groups of warriors, with the GPK's being more mercs while the Darcozzi being more guardsmen. But either way, not paladins, at least as I would see "paladins".

As for the Bleak Walkers, I can see them as paladins, almost certainly evil, though it's hard to see a binding ideology. Their description seems to describe more of means to their ideology than an ideology itself. But I have no idea what the ideology their brutal and merciless nature exists to support.

This leaves the Kind Wayfarers and the Shieldbearers. I can see these two as old school paladins of roughly similar flavor. Protectors of the innocent, etc., etc., etc.

Maybe what's really missing, at least for me, are ties to Eora's deities, since tying an order to a specific deity would pretty much define an order's philosophy. If an order was linked to Magran, a paladin would be a champion of the goddess of war and fire, and so forth, for example.


Anyways, looking at the paladin orders from an talent perspective, it seems to me that they're all relative weak and unappealing. The only talent that seems at all potent is Pallegina's Wrath of the Five Suns talent. It seems to me that other than the Faith and Conviction dispositions, the 5 playable orders are all rather generic in their abilities because their talents are so lame. Oh, sure, you've got to work your dispositions during your game play, and that's a good thing. But in terms of abilities, all paladins seem like they're pretty much the same in combat.

It would be nice if there was more differentiation between the orders in terms of what they bring to combat. It might also be nice if each order had specific requirements or strongly favored attributes that related to that order's special skills, talents, and/or abilities, so that paladins of different orders didn't have so much of a sameness about them.

On PoTD Inspiring Liberation is GREAT. + 10 Accuracy thay stacks with everything that last at a base line of 20 seconds with 10 INT is awesome in dragon fights. Helping CC land reliably. But you don’t like Darcozzi :p

Darcozzi are a Kingsguard like in Game of Thrones. I like it.

I used to be old school like you about Paladins but I like the take on them in this game. You don’t have to follow a god to be zealous about something. And I like the leader concept better than the D and D version But to each his own of course. I bet you were jealous of those Berathian Paladins in Raedrics Keep!
A. I don't do POTD.

B. Never watched Game of Thrones. Heck, I don't think that I've even had cable in more than 10 years. Just wasn't worth the ridiculously high price IMO. And on principle, I hate channel bundling, which is another reason I refuse to get cable.

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities. To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter. I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

D. I don't like the leader concept because if you have a group of paladins, like those Berathian Paladins, they can't ALL be leaders. Too many chiefs, not enough indians. But when you're talking about holy warriors, well, you avoid that problem. or if the term "holy warrior" doesn't work for you, think instead of them as "champions" (of their deity). A champion is still a holy warrior of sorts, though not necessarily a zealot in the colloquial sense. They may be leaders, but not necessarily so. They'd be warriors chosen and blessed by their deity to be one of that deity's chosen champions in this world (Eora, in this case).

(FYI, I'm thinking of David Weber's War God series, where the primary character, Bahzell Bahnakson, is a Champion of the god of war and justice, Tomanak. He's no zealot by any stretch of the imagination. Arguably, he's not even all that "holy" a warrior. He's certainly not religious. He doesn't really see Tomanak as a god to be worshiped. He tends to see Tomanak as being more like his really, REALLY super powerful boss, in whose name Bahzell fights. And that's OK with Tomanak because he wants Bahzell to be exactly who he is, not some boot-licking toady.)


Frankly, I think that all of the abilities we see in the game could be easily enough explained without needing this leader foolishness. In a very real sense, the abilities we see paladins get in PoE aren't all that different from those Paladins got in D&D, at least in the IE D&D games. They're just not bundled up as "spells". But they still do similar kinds of things. Help companions. Hurt enemies. That sort of thing.



Anyways...

I wish that the devs had done more to create a lot more differentiation between the paladin orders, because right now, there seems be very little differentiation, except for how you have to role play a pally PC relative to your order's F+C dispositions.
All fair points. You can also read GoT :p that’s where I first heard of them! I see what you are saying though too many Chiefs not enough Indians. But to be honest I was a Marine and we had the same ethos in that we train everyone to be a leader from a Private to the Commendant. So that if your lieutenant is dead the sergeant has no issue taking over and the sergeant is out the corporal is trained to lead etc. That being said there is still a rank structure and in training and combat chain of command is followed. I think it’s the same with the Paladin Orders in this setting.
Also not everyone in the Knights Templar was a Templar they had support troops. I would think it the same for the orders here.

I do like D and D Paladin style as well though. As far as differentiating other then Disposition I think might be a tough to balance issue?

I like PoTD group play but that’s me :)

PS PS I agree that none of the order talents are real difference makers save Darcozzi Inspiring Liberation and that’s only on a certain difficulty. Some are ok though Remember Rakhan Field makes Bleak Walkers the best Alpha strike Paladins as no other order can add an extra damage type to their FoD. Also Goldpact Knight Immunity to mind crontrol is great. Their Enduring Flames DoT can also be extremely punishing against bosses. Bait a mind control by popping an ally out of stealth then hit them with Liberating Exhirtation and they are immune. The AI has cool downs on some abilities like that so they won’t be able to cast it again for a while. It’s more niche but it really works.

Also the Sword and the Shepherd from Kind Wayfarers a nice quick heal when you need something faster then Lay on Hands or an Aoe Heal. Strange Mercy is a stronger heal but it’s not on command you need a Kill.

Shield bearer talents need work in my personal case as I play PoTD and deflection is your second least useful defense. Last being Will and most important being Fort. Giving extra deflection to allies is meh. Deflection is most useful in trash fights and in trash fights you don’t need much of it.

 

 

 

I get that not everyone in the KT's was a Templar.  It's the same in the Dave Weber War God series.  Not all warriors in the order of Tomanak were champions.  Heck, as the story goes, there were only 19 champions for the entire continent.  And they weren't really members of the Order, per se.  The Order actually existed to support the Champions.  And there were various ranks, and lots of "lay brothers" who were the Order's soldiers.  The Champions were essentially Tomanak's appointed generals for the Order.  Where they went, the Order followed.  The Order selected its members.  The god Tomanak selected His champions.

 

Regarding differentiating, seems to me that it'd be no more difficult to balance than any other class related balance related work.  Another reason I wish that the paladin's had been linked to dieties is for the differentiation.  I would have loved to see MUCH more wildly differentiated paladins, above and beyond merely "good" or "evil" paladins.

 

The devs could have selected deities who covered a WIDE array of different things.  Magran, a goddess of war and flame.  And perhaps her paladins might have some flame based abilities.  Or Galawain, the nature God of the Hunt.  Imagine what a champion of that god might be like.  Perhaps almost like a cross between a "paladin" and a ranger, a tree-hugging paladin, I suppose.  Or Eothas, perhaps the most "good" god of the bunch, whose champions might be the most traditional goody two-shoes of paladins.  Or Hylea, the goddess of the birds and sky.  Perhaps her champions might have some weather related abilities, like rain based or call lightning.

 

It just seems to me that this could have been incredibly interesting and differentiated.

 

Thats fair and I know lore wise they exist they just are not playable, unfortunately not to your liking!  That being said even though Jueodas is being rude he is right about zealotry being the power source in the setting.

 

 

 

 

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.

 

 

It's not about making one setting conform to another.  It's about not LIKING one setting's definition of paladins and wishing that it was something else.

 

 

 

No need for that man it is his opinion.  I also like Faith based Paladins but they are not playable :)


  • Crucis likes this

#32
draego

draego

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 894 posts
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities. To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter. I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

I mean if it makes you feel any better no one gets their power from gods in this game not even priest. The gods dont bestow anything well because you know :). All power in POE comes from ones soul and how you focus your soul or particular specialty. According to the above definition there are no holy warriors in POE at all so its just not even possible in POE.


Edited by draego, 26 January 2018 - 09:09 AM.

  • Torm51 likes this

#33
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

 

 

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.

 

 

It's not about making one setting conform to another.  It's about not LIKING one setting's definition of paladins and wishing that it was something else.

 

 

 

 

Really?  You're gonna go there?  :facepalm:



#34
Juodas Varnas

Juodas Varnas

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 686 posts
  • Location:Grand Duchy of Lithuania
  • Deadfire Backer

 

 

 

 

C. I don't see zealotry as a legitimate source of power for a paladin's abilities.  To me, a guardsman is nothing more than a fighter.  I see paladins as requiring a tie to a deity because it's only through that deity that they get their power, their divine abilities.

 

Except that their Zealotry is LITERALLY their power source (and not some random deity. This isn't DnD)

Just like with the Priests, it's the FAITH ITSELF fueling their abilities (hence the Eothasian priests being able to cast their wiggity woo, despite their god being literally dead, and Durance still being able to do the same, despite his goddess trying to kill him and not even able to recognize him)

 

You can't just attempt to make one setting conform to the rules of another.

 

 

It's not about making one setting conform to another.  It's about not LIKING one setting's definition of paladins and wishing that it was something else.

 

 

 

 

Really?  You're gonna go there?  :facepalm:

 



#35
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

Thanks for the support, Torm. 

 

And, ya know, it's not like I've said that paladins as they currently exist are horrible, terrible, or a scourge on the game, or whatever.  I just don't like or agree with the direction the devs took with them.  I think that they're uninteresting and boring, which I find sad because in all of the old IE games, I always would play at least one paladin in a play through, because I loved them.

 

On top of that, in almost all (if not 100%) of my play throughs of PoE, I've used Pallegina, a paladin, because I thoroughly enjoy having her in my  parties.  I love her accent.  I've said it in the past (probably a couple years back, but what the heck) that I wish that more of the companions (Sagani, Aloth, and Kana come to mind as companions who aren't from the general area of the Dyrwood) had more interesting and exotic accents, particularly those who are not from the Dyrwood.  I've just felt that it would have made them more interesting and gave them a bit more of the "not from around here" feel that I get from Pallegina.

 

I'm so glad that Pallegina is one of the Companions chosen to be carried over into PoE2. 


  • Torm51 likes this

#36
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 14837 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Yes, she is quite nice. I also like Wrath of the Five Suns very much.
  • Torm51 and Crucis like this

#37
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

Yes, she is quite nice. I also like Wrath of the Five Suns very much.

 

Yes, there is that too.



#38
Torm51

Torm51

    (11) Wizard

  • Members
  • 1756 posts
  • Location:Shieldbearer Outpost somewhere in Eora
  • Steam:extol51
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yes, she is quite nice. I also like Wrath of the Five Suns very much.


Best “smite” in the game. Better then a Bleak Walker

#39
Blades of Vanatar

Blades of Vanatar

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 787 posts
  • Location:Khatovar
My fave order was the Shieldbearer. I found Pallies in general to be boring but loved my Shieldbearer in an all tank party. He shined brightly as the leader of 5 Warriors. Or in other party types he made my Melee Ranger/Wolf duos even more powerful/tank. Give him Shame or Glory and triple team an enemy. They could take down any non boss quite handily.

#40
Crucis

Crucis

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1597 posts

My fave order was the Shieldbearer. I found Pallies in general to be boring but loved my Shieldbearer in an all tank party. He shined brightly as the leader of 5 Warriors. Or in other party types he made my Melee Ranger/Wolf duos even more powerful/tank. Give him Shame or Glory and triple team an enemy. They could take down any non boss quite handily.

 

I have been wanting to play one more run through PoE1 before PoE2 arrives, but I haven't been able to come up with a character concept for my PC.  (I am *NOT* looking forward to the 5 character max party size though.)

 

I've been somewhat tempted to try a paladin, possibly built as an "undead hunter", but I'm hesitant because I love having Pallegina round so much and am wary of playing with 2 paladins in the party.  I like the variety of classes, and the potent interaction of having a wide variety of different classes in the party.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users