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Can PoE grow as a franchise the way the Witcher did?


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I never said anything about the quality of PS:T. I didn't make any value judgement of any kind--and by the way, I've repeatedly stated that I *like* Witcher 3.

I'm not saying anything about the game being bad, I'm just being honest about what it is. Not every game has to be a deep and philosophical exploration of meaning--sometimes an adolescent fantasy is fun.

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You can say its bad(you liked a post that's saying game & book is awful). Even if it is so I just don't find the arguments for it convincing, 

 

Its an adolescent fantasy? So are most games.

Geralt "wins" every fight? Read the books, he got too many near death experiences & also *spoilers* in the end he dies lol. Course in the game when he dies game's over/most every game's problem.

Geralt's protecting Ciri/his daughter is adolescent fantasy?

Geralt's a whiny bitch?

Geralt is/witchers are emotionless? Its a myth. They are good at hiding their emotions, keeping their nerve.

 

Throwing poo for the sake of it.

 

For cheating & not cheating arguments. Yennefer & Triss were best friends in the books, they had a falling out cos of Geralt. Of course Yennefer would care strongly if they are doing it again :p She wouldn't necessarily judge or know of 1 offs while he's off adventuring & stuff while their relationship wasn't even set in stone till late in the game/they were on a break for a long period in the books. And its a medieval world ffs. He's off fighting monsters and "can" die in the next battle, he should do something about his enhanced libido now & then. Forgive CDPR for not putting a cheat meter in the game for every brothel visit.

 

---

 

For the actual thread: It would depend on how successful Obs' future games are gonna be(- duh!) :D Hope Deadfire will be good a game(GOTY 2018, fingers crossed :) & the user friendly enhancements will pay off.

 

However I wouldn't say no to but wouldn't necessarily want an action rpg out of PoE. I'd rather they keep the god's eye view & RTwP and move to 3D or build & render every map so they could be viewed from at least 4 equally different angles while keeping the 2D beauty lol.

Edited by Quillon
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Well...I guess you're right :D He's basically a medieval superhero but he's the older batman rather than the young spidey. Which might be why I don't/can't fantasize myself being him when playing the games. I make the choices for the character rather than for me, I ask myself what would Geralt say/do before I choose to say/do those things. When I read the books I wanted to be Cahir rather than Geralt. All of which don't change the fact that this franchise has about the same level of power fantasy as any other RPG, but its god awful atm for you because its SUCCESSFUL and because ****ting on Bio-games isn't as much fun any more. 

 

 

ed: Oh, also I said "Its your loss if you can't see past the increased libido of a Witcher." cos you were the ones who mentioned repeatedly "he gets the girlz".

 

Precisely. However, successful isn't the problem, not for me at least. I got interested in the first game back when almost no one had even heard about the series, I just felt that it was a big letdown. The fantasy not resonating me was just part of the problem. Another problem with the game is the very monotonic setting, which is actually a flaw often shared by obsidian's products. An adolescent power fantasy doesn't automatically mean bad, I just get a certain repulsion effect from it, probably due to an over-indulgence in them from when I actually was an adolescent, as I indulge a *lot* in fantasy. The thing is, the more you fantasize the more your fantasies evolve to adapt to your perception of reality. 

 

Oh, and while almost every RPG indeed is a power fantasy, there are different kinds of power fantasies. For example the 'powerful female hero' is an infantile fantasy about a super-mom, which is natural due to small children being completely reliant on their mothers and it really is a tough place for a kid to suddenly realize that your mother is just a vulnerable creature, and the super-mom fantasy is a fairly common. If the female hero is also a young virginal character, it dips into the realm of an adolescent mind again, again, trying to deal with the uncomfortable vulnerability of the object that most draws the minds attention. This last one is a common fantasy for young boys who not only have the desire to act as a protector, but also realize their inability to truly protect anyone from the dangers of the world due to lack of strength or just not being able to always be around. This leads to the fantasy of an emotionally vulnerable girl requiring emotional protection from your part, while having sufficient strength to protect herself against dangers you can't protect her from.

 

A shameless stereotypical fantasy is powerful stuff for a mind that hasn't been allowed to play those fantasies out in one way or another, this is why the argument is valid. I'm not going to comment on whether some people are using this argument for the Witcher's success as 'throwing poo-poo for the sake of it', but there is a powerful psychological reality behind it regardless. PoE attempts to create a more mature narrative and a more mature fantasy, which doesn't have nearly the same amount of power in the vast majority of the population.

 

Damn I think about this subject way too much. I could rave on and on about it for ages. I'll just shut up now ^^

 

EDIT: I like the 'old batman' analogy btw, there's quite a bit of similarities there.

Edited by Ninjamestari
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The fantasy not resonating me was just part of the problem. Another problem with the game is the very monotonic setting, which is actually a flaw often shared by obsidian's products.

Its a flaw just cos you don't like it? Its precisely why I like the setting, the more realistic, less magic, more politics & court intrigue the better. Tho one thing I don't like is space & time travel/its connection to other settings, I hated the very end of the books cos of it.

 

Btw. poeple who don't like Witcher here, also don't like asoiaf right?

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Regarding Geralt's lack of emotion: that's not actually true, its a misconception held by a lot of people in the setting about Witchers, and which Geralt sometimes plays to in order to get away with things.  I think this is a large part of the reason why there is such different perspectives on the games: we have been taught, particularly by Bioware games, to accept whatever people to say as usually the character we are talking to is just an exposition dumper, whereas the Witcher games will lie to you.  Half the characters in the Witcher games will deliberately lie to murky the waters and the other half don't know the real truth and will just tell you what they heard which isn't true either.  Most games, most shows even, are very reluctant to do this, not trusting the viewer to work out the truth because of prior conditioning.

"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

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Geralt "wins" every fight? Read the books, he got too many near death experiences & also *spoilers* in the end he dies lol.

 

Not only Geralt is fatally wounded, but the fact *WHO* gives the killing blow is even more unbelievable.

 

 

Not a monster, not Vilgefortz, not a experienced mercenary... but some lame peasant bloke with a pitchfork!

 

Edited by Messier-31

It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air...

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Well a problem with most games, and indeed fantasy writing, in particular is the darn "hero's journey" which has been taken far too literally by too many writers.

Having said that, it's really difficult to create a protagonist in a game without going through the motions/chapters involved.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

One of the reasons that there is just very little new original writing, because writers often use it as a template.

"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Well a problem with most games, and indeed fantasy writing, in particular is the darn "hero's journey" which has been taken far too literally by too many writers.

Having said that, it's really difficult to create a protagonist in a game without going through the motions/chapters involved.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero's_journey

One of the reasons that there is just very little new original writing, because writers often use it as a template.

But that's not The Witcher's problem at all. It's a power fantasy not because you go from farmer to savior, but because you start as the studly professional and only ever have your mettle proven again and again. Only BioWare games are so structurally consistent, and even then, it's usually the player's decision to have their character follow hero's journey so strictly. I don't think you can even find especially redundant plot points between New VegasPillars, and Tyranny. As RPG, their progression will feel similar, but you'd be remiss if you said they were all the same, and you'd be especially wrong if you said they were just following the hero's journey.

 

My problem with fantasy writing in games is that they can't follow the hero's journey. Not properly anyway. Even in a game like Assassin's Creed 2 where the narrative quite clearly follows the hero's journey, the player never feels the same emotional highs and lows as Ezio. Your progression through the game is a fairly consistent upward climb in power. The actual hero's journey can only be felt sympathetically through protagonist, not directly through the mechanics. Very few games, and even fewer RPG are bold enough to take from the player and make final battle not just an obligatory outcome of the player's acquired power, but a victory earned in desperation as per the hero's journey.

 

Honestly, if you're finding the hero's journey, it's only because you're not looking hard enough for quality fiction or you're working especially hard to ignore intricacies.

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The fantasy not resonating me was just part of the problem. Another problem with the game is the very monotonic setting, which is actually a flaw often shared by obsidian's products.

Its a flaw just cos you don't like it? Its precisely why I like the setting, the more realistic, less magic, more politics & court intrigue the better. Tho one thing I don't like is space & time travel/its connection to other settings, I hated the very end of the books cos of it.

 

Btw. poeple who don't like Witcher here, also don't like asoiaf right?

 

 

Less magic, more politics and court intrique is precisely the strong point of witcher, that's not the issue. I'm talking about the monotonous *mood* of the game, every single area has the same flavor of depression hanging on it, there's no light hearted adventure, there's no deep mystery, everything is just one gray homogenous mass emotionally.

 

And I definitely like song of ice and fire, the only problem I have with the books is that the insane number of different viewpoint characters butchers the reading experience. Seriously, I start to have trouble keeping up interest if there are more than two viewpoint characters, song of ice and fire has so many that you can't even count them with the fingers of both your hands. The setting is awesome though, and the TV show has been good for the most part.

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I really, really like the Witcher.

 

I really, really dislike ASoIaF.

 

:grin:

 

As for lighthearted, I'd recommend the Heart of Stone expansion. Not all of it, but it has some positively hilarious stuff.

And for not-as-depressing, Blood&Wine (more lighthearted, at the same time).

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Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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Can Eternity become a "mega mainstream hit"?

Uh... no, not in it's current form.  It is an isometric RPG, very much a niche genre that is outside anything involving the word "mainstream".

The better question would be "can they make real money on Eternity and turn it into a franchise?"  The answer to that is most definitely yes.  Can they over time consider making an open world 3D action RPG similar to say the Witcher or Dark Souls based in the world of Eora?  Sure they can, and that could be a game with much more mainstream appeal.

The thing is that a game like that requires much more staff, and much more money, than Obsidian can commit at this time.  Don't kid yourself, you are not going to kick/figstart a open world RPG on par with something like Fallout 4 or Mass Effect Andromeda.  The budget required is way out of the realm of public funding.

I will say that Josh Sawyer said in a live stream that he really liked the "Dark Souls formula" and would not be opposed to doing a game similar to that one day.

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For pillows to be mainstream it will have to go third action console rpg route is the consensus so far?

 

Obs would have had a lot better time if they had kickstarted a sci-fi/post apoc. RPG which are the sub-genres that's more popular atm and can scale a lot better with budget as opposed to Pillar's 2 options; either stay as a successful niche or get a big AAA budget. I think InXile's sitting on a gold mine that's Wasteland which can be a lot more successful with better level-design & writing, better prod. quality & Xcom like gameplay but InXile lacks the talent & budget/project management to hit a home run. So I guess what I'm saying is Obs needs[to crowdfund] another IP that could do what I think could be done with a sci-fi/PA rpg that's a lot different from Pillars and keep its budget separated(avoiding the cluster**** what InXile seems to be in).

 

 

 

 

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My hope is that Obsidian continues to reap financial success producing games similar to PoE - as in isometric party based rpgs. It is a niche market but it can pay the bills for the moderate budgets that they are using for PoE2. Let Bethesda and Witcher make big budget console focused action games, Obsidian can focus on quality game play with good writing.

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Geralt "wins" every fight? Read the books, he got too many near death experiences & also *spoilers* in the end he dies lol.

 

Not only Geralt is fatally wounded, but the fact *WHO* gives the killing blow is even more unbelievable.

 

 

Not a monster, not Vilgefortz, not a experienced mercenary... but some lame peasant bloke with a pitchfork!

 

 

 

That reminds me of that bearded outlaw guy in 'Once Upon A Time In The West' that gets shot by the 'tsut tsut -man' in the end :D

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The fantasy not resonating me was just part of the problem. Another problem with the game is the very monotonic setting, which is actually a flaw often shared by obsidian's products.

Its a flaw just cos you don't like it? Its precisely why I like the setting, the more realistic, less magic, more politics & court intrigue the better. Tho one thing I don't like is space & time travel/its connection to other settings, I hated the very end of the books cos of it.

 

Btw. poeple who don't like Witcher here, also don't like asoiaf right?

 

 

Nah, I like the Wtcher, and would love to see a Ciri spinoff. The court intrigue is fun, magic system is great, and monster are original. The witcher plays around with so many of the typical fantasy cliches, and just flips em. Utterly fantastic.

All that being said, I detest asoiaf books, and even more the tv show. It just comes across as trying so hard to be edgy and dark for some reeason, especially when compared to works that do many of the same things (ie. Malazan, Empress, New Sun, Berserk, Prince of Nothing, and Black Company)

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You think ASOIAF is trying to be dark and edgy but Malazan: Book of the Fallen is doing things right?

Okay, then. You do realize that ASOIAF was published first and Malazan came about after the dark, gritty fantasy started to get popular, right?

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You think ASOIAF is trying to be dark and edgy but Malazan: Book of the Fallen is doing things right?

 

Okay, then. You do realize that ASOIAF was published first and Malazan came about after the dark, gritty fantasy started to get popular, right?

 

Oh, believe me I know. It is just a personal preference thing really. ASOIAF often seems to be dark and horrible for no reason to be dark and disturbing. The other series just appeal to me more. Also, dark fantasy has been around foreveeeeeer. Just take a look at the Gormenghast, Elric, Black Company, Warhammer, and Thomas Covonent. Hell, just take a look at any eastern European folklore really.

 

I do get why people like the series though, just doesn't work for me

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The major difference is low fantasy with a degree of gritty realism vs high fantasy with all that implies. Nobody in Warhammer dies a slow death from gangrene after a minor wound from a no-name mook during a minor combat, for example. In Warhammer, hero's only die as a result of huge, epic battles against their foils in battles that decide the fate of civilizations.

 

The dark, low magic, "realistic", semi-historical gritty fantasy genre is something that ASOIAF didn't originate but definitely helped codify and popularize.

 

Still, I understand.

Edited by Katarack21
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Not possible really.

 

Thing is:

If we look older RPG games and older computer RPG games like: Baldur's Gate or Fallout (1-2) they were really great but need relative deep learning curve.

 

If we look now best selling "RPG games" like Diablo III, Fallout 4, Elder Scroll V: Skyrim we quite fast see that these games sell because they are really fast to learn, look good and are more of shoot em up / hack & slash and less for deep turn based RPG like Planescape Torment where most of your time went reading things and trying different stuff and "playing roleplay".

 

If we thing Pillars of Eternity when it arrived I really loved it, still do. But most people are like "what, you seriously pause when fight start and give every order for every party member untill fight is over?" or "are you serious, you read ALL text in the game? Including item descriptions and tomb stones?" or "what do you mean you spend few days just creating your character and reading manual?" if I try to tell them how I play it and why I love it.

 

Sure it might be interesting to see "Pillars of Eternity V: How to kill a dragon and get level 100 in 2 days" and I bet it would sell huge amount. But would I keep telling people that is "Game of the year, not Witcher III". No. Because sure, it would be fun to play casually. But really roleplaying it, no.

 

I allso bet that most people who keep telling how great Witcher III is have never played and might not even know that there was a game called Neverwinter Nights and it was used to make Witcher I, good game allso. And real RPG game, really.

Edited by Count-JN
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I don't think The Witcher series naturally grew. Barely anyone played the first, only a handful played the second. When the 3rd was shown off at E3, it got a public buzz and alot of hype.

 

The first game was terrible, the second game was just okay but some parts - like the invisible walls and children speaking with adult voices.

 

The Witcher 3 is nearly a perfect action rpg though, it seems to me that CD Projekt Red got lucky, because The Witcher 1 and 2 were less than average.

 

Of course, I own all 3 and have completed each of them more than once.

 

Do I think that PoE has the chance to become as big? Hmmm... maybe. The thing is that alot of people don't like real-time with pause games anymore, they would rather play something a bit more "accessible" and in your face like but then, Crpg's seem to be coming back in a big way so it might generate some waves of love for PoE in the future, years after the rest of us have already played the games.

Just what do you think you're doing?! You dare to come between me and my prey? Is it a habit of yours to scurry about, getting in the way and causing bother?

 

What are you still bothering me for? I'm a Knight. I'm not interested in your childish games. I need my rest.

 

Begone! Lest I draw my nail...

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The major difference is low fantasy with a degree of gritty realism vs high fantasy with all that implies. Nobody in Warhammer dies a slow death from gangrene after a minor wound from a no-name mook during a minor combat, for example. In Warhammer, hero's only die as a result of huge, epic battles against their foils in battles that decide the fate of civilizations.

 

The dark, low magic, "realistic", semi-historical gritty fantasy genre is something that ASOIAF didn't originate but definitely helped codify and popularize.

 

Still, I understand.

 

Have you ever read "Acts of Caine" or "Empress". Sounds like they might be right up your alley, since you seem to like low fantasy with a military edge

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