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Gregorovitch

I am very disappointed to hear the party will be reduced to five.

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You also have the "Lantry problem". In Tyranny, certainly on PotD, in the early game when you recruit him enemies relentlessly target Lantry and he dies quickly and often. There is no reliable way to protect him tacticaly so the answer is give him the heaviest armour you can lay your hands on. It slows his casting but heavy armour makes him harder to kill and reduces his priority for the enemy AI. It works but it is boring and is not how I expect my RPGs to work.

Secondly it will severely limit options in party makeup. For me there are four mandatory positions in a party: Two melee specialists, a priest and a wizard. I know some people play replacing a priest with a druid and palladin, make tanky wizards and chanters, use cipher plus druid to cover wizard role etc, but I'm a boring conservative when it comes to this and I like to play traditional roles. I am not interested in multi-classing for example (although I know a lot of people are). I play PotD so two specialist melee (fighter/monk/palladic/barbarian) is a bare minimum and I always play with three in practice becasue I don't build tanky/melee casters.

In PoE this left two slots available for two of ranger, druid, chanter, rogue and cipher. Two out of five is not too bad. In Deadfire this is threatened to be reduced to one. I am very unhappy I will only be able to play one of those classes per playthrough (yes, I always take the same party through a game, I don't swap characters around).

What makes this worse is that my party has already been fixed in stone for my first Deafire game. We have Eder, Pallegina and Aloth comming with us and I have always played with them in my party anyway so they are mandatory picks. I am just finshing up my WM2 PotD run whichh will probably be my finakl Deafire save and I am a druid this time (thank God, otherwise unless I was a priest one of the main companions would have to go) so the only question is who is Durance's replacement is in Deadfire? That's literally all I have to look forward to in terms of new characters.

So why? With all these downsides to it and probably a lot more besides, what on earth are the upsides? I can't think of single upside, not one.

 

 

It sounds like your proposed party makeup has already abandoned the idea of three melee specialists. If that's the case, I'm seeing parties beyond your proposed one, even with your other fairly rigid restrictions. This is the one it sounds like you plan to play with:

 

Melee 1: Fighter Eder, Melee 2: Paladin Pallegina, Wizard: Aloth, Priest: Xoti, Wildcard: Druid PC

 

You've already acknowledged the possibility of a priest PC, but there's also the possibility of starting Eder as a rogue from level one. Those two changes open up these parties to you:

 

Melee 1: Fighter Eder, Melee 2: Paladin Pallegina, Wizard: Aloth, Priest: PC, Wildcard: any of Druid Tenehu, Chanter Tenehu, Cipher Seraphen, and Ranger Maia

Melee 1: Barbarian Serafen, Melee 2: Pallegina, Priest: PC, Wizard: Aloth, Wildcard: Rogue Eder

Melee 1: Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, or Monk PC, Melee 2: Pallegina, Priest: Xoti, Wizard: Aloth, Wildcard: Rogue Eder

 

That's still not a broad range of options, but it does allow you to meet more companions than Xoti and to play a melee class if you wish.

Edited by eselle28

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Deep breaths everyone. I think you will be ok with 5 multiclass level 20 characters.

 

Every argument here that "5 sucks we need six!" could just as well be applied to 6 characters if PoE 1 had originally allowed seven. Would you be now clamoring that "6 sucks we need 7" in that case? Or 8, or 9... or maybe we need 10, one for every class?

 

Five will be fine... and the new game will be designed around it so the encounters will be balanced for it.

 

Deep breaths.

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You forgot rogues, someone disarming traps really is mandatory, so you'll 'need' a cipher or a rogue for the mechanics bonus. That makes two frontliners, a wizard, a priest and a thief, leaving one slot for a support/free character and zero for Deadfire. There will be a ton of characters that will never see a place in the party due to this. Eder and Pallegina are both already in, Xoti I think was the priest, then a wizard and a rogue-type.

 

But I agree, reducing the party size to 5 is one of the dumbest ideas there ever was for deadfire, and I'm extremely disappointed that it will be implemented. I have the feeling that Deadfire is being dumbed down in order to attract a wider audience, which if true is an absolutely disgusting thing to do for a crowd-funded project.


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Chanters also get a mechanics bonus.  Either way, they have said skills are getting reworked almost completely.  New skills will be in PoE two, and I am sure the old ones will be different than the first game.  The class bonuses in skills will likely change as well. 

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I surely would like 6 characters but in no way will my gaming feelings change in case we get a 5 men party only. No great disappointment here for me.

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With six characters I'm usually still able to battle on when three or even four of them drop during heavy combat. I'd expect though that 5 member parties will need more do-overs.


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You forgot rogues, someone disarming traps really is mandatory, so you'll 'need' a cipher or a rogue for the mechanics bonus.

 

Anyone can disarm traps. I regularly have parties in PoE that don't include a Rogue or Cipher and I just pick someone else and pump their mechanics and, at worst, there is the occasional trap I can't disarm and am forced to trigger. What do I lose from this? Some health and a little bit of experience that I really don't need. The idea that a Rogue or Cipher is mandatory is just rubbish.

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You forgot rogues, someone disarming traps really is mandatory, so you'll 'need' a cipher or a rogue for the mechanics bonus.

 

Anyone can disarm traps. I regularly have parties in PoE that don't include a Rogue or Cipher and I just pick someone else and pump their mechanics and, at worst, there is the occasional trap I can't disarm and am forced to trigger. What do I lose from this? Some health and a little bit of experience that I really don't need. The idea that a Rogue or Cipher is mandatory is just rubbish.

 

Isn't trap/secret detection being switched to use Perception in PoE2? Thought I read that somewhere.


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There's a small, aluminum foil covered portion of my mind(metaphorically!) that wonders if Obsidian didn't go with 5 companions on purpose, just to troll Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale fans for some inside joke.

 

I would definitely prefer 6, and hopefully this spurs the modders to really delve into Pillars 2 and open it up to allow for more companions at once in the party and bigger encounters, post release.

 

That said, I'm still interested in the game even if 5 is all we ever get, and yes I did already Fig Pledge for the game. *sigh* 

 

I bought Tyranny also, without doing much research on it at all, and was underwhelmed to say the least. Combat suffered quite a bit in that game, in my opinion, from dropping party size down to 4 and spending resources on the combo move system.

 

Hopefully Pillars 2 turns out well.

 

For those of you sick of the party size topic, you have my sympathies. You'll probably be seeing these threads from now until well after the release date. :|

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Isn't trap/secret detection being switched to use Perception in PoE2? Thought I read that somewhere.

 

That rings a bell, although I couldn't give a source.

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Isn't trap/secret detection being switched to use Perception in PoE2? Thought I read that somewhere.

 

That rings a bell, although I couldn't give a source.

 

I remember Josh mentioning it in the latest Twitch stream.

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/5ye510/pillars_of_eternity_ii_deadfire_qa_stream_5/ <- transcript - it's near the end (do a 'find' for 'Perception')

 

So I'm guessing it'll be Perception to spot traps (and hidden objects) but still Mechanics to disarm.

They also said that this time traps will be visible in-world before they're discovered by the characters (so the player can spot them and move around if they're careful, even if the characters don't have high perception).  Not sure how I feel about that.  On the one hand it'll be visually cool, but on the other it revolves around my own perception more than the characters'.

In practice, I'll probably have a high PER character in the front-lines anyway so I guess it won't make a difference.

Edited by Silent Winter

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Isn't trap/secret detection being switched to use Perception in PoE2? Thought I read that somewhere.

 

That rings a bell, although I couldn't give a source.

 

I remember Josh mentioning it in the latest Twitch stream.

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/5ye510/pillars_of_eternity_ii_deadfire_qa_stream_5/ <- transcript - it's near the end (do a 'find' for 'Perception')

 

So I'm guessing it'll be Perception to spot traps (and hidden objects) but still Mechanics to disarm.

They also said that this time traps will be visible in-world before they're discovered by the characters (so the player can spot them and move around if they're careful, even if the characters don't have high perception).  Not sure how I feel about that.  On the one hand it'll be visually cool, but on the other it revolves around my own perception more than the characters'.

In practice, I'll probably have a high PER character in the front-lines anyway so I guess it won't make a difference.

 

I like it. One of my big problems with BGT(never played BG proper, always used the BGT mod) was that at 100+ detect traps or whatever it was called I would still trigger the damn things despite having waited for over 12 seconds right next to one.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

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Isn't trap/secret detection being switched to use Perception in PoE2? Thought I read that somewhere.

 

That rings a bell, although I couldn't give a source.

 

I remember Josh mentioning it in the latest Twitch stream.

https://www.reddit.com/r/projecteternity/comments/5ye510/pillars_of_eternity_ii_deadfire_qa_stream_5/ <- transcript - it's near the end (do a 'find' for 'Perception')

 

So I'm guessing it'll be Perception to spot traps (and hidden objects) but still Mechanics to disarm.

They also said that this time traps will be visible in-world before they're discovered by the characters (so the player can spot them and move around if they're careful, even if the characters don't have high perception).  Not sure how I feel about that.  On the one hand it'll be visually cool, but on the other it revolves around my own perception more than the characters'.

In practice, I'll probably have a high PER character in the front-lines anyway so I guess it won't make a difference.

 

I like it. One of my big problems with BGT(never played BG proper, always used the BGT mod) was that at 100+ detect traps or whatever it was called I would still trigger the damn things despite having waited for over 12 seconds right next to one.

 

Didn't armour reduce the detect traps score? (At least in BGT it did).  I think you really needed much higher than 100 to get 100% detect.  But yeah, sometimes I'd wait, step and the trap would be 'detected' just as it went off.


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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I'll have to check but I believe that IR only put an armor penalty on stealth skills for above leather. But Imoen was wearing robes at that point anyways.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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I'll have to check but I believe that IR only put an armor penalty on stealth skills for above leather. But Imoen was wearing robes at that point anyways.

ah, okay.  It did seem a bit fiddly at times.  The PoE one was a bit more consistent.  Not sure how often the check was done in PoE though.


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*Casts Nature's Terror* :aiee: , *Casts Firebug* :fdevil: , *Casts Rot-Skulls* :skull: , *Casts Garden of Life* :luck: *Spirit-shifts to cat form* :cat:

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" For me there are four mandatory positions in a party: Two melee specialists, a priest and a wizard."

 

This is a good example - a lot of people who think this is going to be a Big Deal, they have a very specific setup that they always want to do every time they play the game. Some of them even think that if they can't have their roles exactly down to their template then something is going to be 'broken' about the game because you can't have a healer or you can't have a second melee specialist or whatever.

 

People, if you really want to always take the same 4 dudes every playthrough, that's your freedom, but the game can't always cater to your whims and that doesn't mean it's broken. Just like the people who want there to be no reactivity in a game because they only play once and they don't want to miss out on anything. Or like the people who wish there were less companions so that you don't have to leave anybody behind. In all of cases, do whatever you want, it's your game - but it should be obvious that there's a grey line somewhere between "major damage to tactical complexity for many players" and "but I always take Eder and stuff and now I can't have exactly what I want for my very particular tastes about my party".

Edited by Tigranes
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The two main reasons I am very, very dissapointed about this party size reduction are:

Firstly It will weaken the ability of the party to control the battlefield by making it that much more difficult to prevent enemies infiltrating your lines. Not as much a Tyranny but obviously in that direction, and the factors that made Tyranny's combat lacklustre in comparisson to PoE will therfore adversly affect Deadfire.

If you cannot control the battle field (or mostly, even often, can't) then each character must per force be able to survive in direct contact with the enemy. This is Tyranny's "Stand & Deliver" problem: in the end every character must be built to withstand damage and simply dish out damage faster than they take it. You just stand where you can attack the most enemies at once and deliver as much damage as you can. There is little tactical interst and finesse in this. It gets boring and repetative quickly.

You also have the "Lantry problem". In Tyranny, certainly on PotD, in the early game when you recruit him enemies relentlessly target Lantry and he dies quickly and often. There is no reliable way to protect him tacticaly so the answer is give him the heaviest armour you can lay your hands on. It slows his casting but heavy armour makes him harder to kill and reduces his priority for the enemy AI. It works but it is boring and is not how I expect my RPGs to work.

Secondly it will severely limit options in party makeup. For me there are four mandatory positions in a party: Two melee specialists, a priest and a wizard. I know some people play replacing a priest with a druid and palladin, make tanky wizards and chanters, use cipher plus druid to cover wizard role etc, but I'm a boring conservative when it comes to this and I like to play traditional roles. I am not interested in multi-classing for example (although I know a lot of people are). I play PotD so two specialist melee (fighter/monk/palladic/barbarian) is a bare minimum and I always play with three in practice becasue I don't build tanky/melee casters.

In PoE this left two slots available for two of ranger, druid, chanter, rogue and cipher. Two out of five is not too bad. In Deadfire this is threatened to be reduced to one. I am very unhappy I will only be able to play one of those classes per playthrough (yes, I always take the same party through a game, I don't swap characters around).

What makes this worse is that my party has already been fixed in stone for my first Deafire game. We have Eder, Pallegina and Aloth comming with us and I have always played with them in my party anyway so they are mandatory picks. I am just finshing up my WM2 PotD run whichh will probably be my finakl Deafire save and I am a druid this time (thank God, otherwise unless I was a priest one of the main companions would have to go) so the only question is who is Durance's replacement is in Deadfire? That's literally all I have to look forward to in terms of new characters.

So why? With all these downsides to it and probably a lot more besides, what on earth are the upsides? I can't think of single upside, not one.

 

How many times does this need to be discussed. Josh said that the decision was not made lightly, and that the whole game is balanced around 5 members now for a multitude of reasons. He said is feedback during beta is overwhelmingly negative, it can change. End of discussion. Don't like it, don't back it, or, wait for beta and make your argument then. 

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Which doesn't mean that i can't lobby for 6 party members per addon/mod - which does make the reasons of why people prefer certain party sizes valid/relevant. (Altho yes, it is starting to get old...)

I will give the 5 party member setup the benefit of a doubt. But I also know that i am biased enough towards 6 character party, so that i will probably not enjoy it as much. That is just the way it is for me and many other people => more good experiences with a 6 character setup rather than 5 or 4.

Sure - a wait and see attitude much be better, but so far i have *not* been sold the idea.

Edited by Duskshift

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The two main reasons I am very, very dissapointed about this party size reduction are:

Firstly It will weaken the ability of the party to control the battlefield by making it that much more difficult to prevent enemies infiltrating your lines. Not as much a Tyranny but obviously in that direction, and the factors that made Tyranny's combat lacklustre in comparisson to PoE will therfore adversly affect Deadfire.

If you cannot control the battle field (or mostly, even often, can't) then each character must per force be able to survive in direct contact with the enemy. This is Tyranny's "Stand & Deliver" problem: in the end every character must be built to withstand damage and simply dish out damage faster than they take it. You just stand where you can attack the most enemies at once and deliver as much damage as you can. There is little tactical interst and finesse in this. It gets boring and repetative quickly.

You also have the "Lantry problem". In Tyranny, certainly on PotD, in the early game when you recruit him enemies relentlessly target Lantry and he dies quickly and often. There is no reliable way to protect him tacticaly so the answer is give him the heaviest armour you can lay your hands on. It slows his casting but heavy armour makes him harder to kill and reduces his priority for the enemy AI. It works but it is boring and is not how I expect my RPGs to work.

Secondly it will severely limit options in party makeup. For me there are four mandatory positions in a party: Two melee specialists, a priest and a wizard. I know some people play replacing a priest with a druid and palladin, make tanky wizards and chanters, use cipher plus druid to cover wizard role etc, but I'm a boring conservative when it comes to this and I like to play traditional roles. I am not interested in multi-classing for example (although I know a lot of people are). I play PotD so two specialist melee (fighter/monk/palladic/barbarian) is a bare minimum and I always play with three in practice becasue I don't build tanky/melee casters.

In PoE this left two slots available for two of ranger, druid, chanter, rogue and cipher. Two out of five is not too bad. In Deadfire this is threatened to be reduced to one. I am very unhappy I will only be able to play one of those classes per playthrough (yes, I always take the same party through a game, I don't swap characters around).

What makes this worse is that my party has already been fixed in stone for my first Deafire game. We have Eder, Pallegina and Aloth comming with us and I have always played with them in my party anyway so they are mandatory picks. I am just finshing up my WM2 PotD run whichh will probably be my finakl Deafire save and I am a druid this time (thank God, otherwise unless I was a priest one of the main companions would have to go) so the only question is who is Durance's replacement is in Deadfire? That's literally all I have to look forward to in terms of new characters.

So why? With all these downsides to it and probably a lot more besides, what on earth are the upsides? I can't think of single upside, not one.

 

How many times does this need to be discussed. Josh said that the decision was not made lightly, and that the whole game is balanced around 5 members now for a multitude of reasons. He said is feedback during beta is overwhelmingly negative, it can change. End of discussion. Don't like it, don't back it, or, wait for beta and make your argument then. 

 

Them: "If everybody hates it, we'll change it."

 

Players: "If you hate it, shut up and deal!"

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"If players during beta don't like it, we change it".

Has anyone of the complainers played the beta yet? Yes? Upload a video in youtube if you're so kind; I'd like to see how the game looks! :)

Edited by Sedrefilos
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"If players during beta don't like it, we change it".

Has anyone of the complainers played the beta yet? Yes? Upload a video in youtube if you're so kind; I'd like to see how the game looks! :)

how do you know that it is so much better and people (or i you if will) will like it then ? I'm sure you havn't played it either ;) ... same logic....

Edited by Duskshift

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how do you know that it is so much better and people (or i you if will) will like it then ? I'm sure you havn't played it either ;) ... same logic....

 

I can't speak for Sedrefilos, but for me it's not that I'm arguing that the change is for the better but rather that the arguments predicting that it will be terrible are premature and, in many cases, alarmist. I'm actually fairly neutral on the change, but I trust that the devs have thought it through and I'd rather they don't make rushed changes based on these arguments.

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"If players during beta don't like it, we change it".

Has anyone of the complainers played the beta yet? Yes? Upload a video in youtube if you're so kind; I'd like to see how the game looks! :)

Them: "If everybody who plays it hates it, we'll change it."

 

Players: "If you hate it, shut up. It's what the developers chose, so don't buy this one if you don't support everything the developers chose."

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More imaginary boo-hoo self-victimisation.

 

You're absolutely free to complain loudly that you don't like it. We're absolutely free to express our opinion that this is all much ado about nothing.  

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