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Grotesque

At this point I only got one important question...

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20 or 30 levels won't make a difference. You can still reach level cap too early if the XP income is not tailored properly.

It obviously makes a difference because they have much more to work with. If they pace it similar to PoE1 it won't be a problem. That's why I'm not worried.

Edited by mumbogumshoe

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 That isn't a question. It's a rude comment directed at the developers.

 

 

I chose to see it as incompetence (which can be easily fixed) 

 

 I don't know if English is your native language but "incompetence" is not something that can be easily fixed (apart from firing the incompetent employees and replacing them). That is why your comment was rude. 

 

 You may have a point, but there are better ways of expressing it if you want the developers to take you seriously.

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I dont understand the concept of tgis work ethic when playing games.

 

I need to be rewarded when playing this game.

I need to get experience when i explore more.

I need to level when i accomplish things.

 

The game itself is the reward.

Its not work.

Its leisure time.

Youre having fun.

You explore to see things. Not to get numeric values upgrades.

 

It even counts double for this genre... It's RPG for god's sake.

 

Sounds like an exhausting way of spending any free time.

 

 

Personally for me the leveling is a side effect. Something that makes me better so i can go explore harder areas or confront bigger foes.

 

 

When the cap stops most of the content is end game content. Which means youre free of the upgrading and can now do what you want.

 

Heck... players in Warcraft or a lot of MMORPGs just rush through the leveling to get to that END GAME content.

 

 

Why are people approaching gaming like its a dayjob and they need hourly minimum wage

 

Sounds weird to me... you don't just wanna know what happens next in the story? That should be it. The upgrading is just a newly recieved key everytime so you could open the door after the door after the door of the tale thats being told...

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I dont understand the concept of tgis work ethic when playing games.

 

I need to be rewarded when playing this game.

I need to get experience when i explore more.

I need to level when i accomplish things.

 

The game itself is the reward.

Its not work.

Its leisure time.

Youre having fun.

You explore to see things. Not to get numeric values upgrades.

 

It even counts double for this genre... It's RPG for god's sake.

 

Sounds like an exhausting way of spending any free time.

 

 

Personally for me the leveling is a side effect. Something that makes me better so i can go explore harder areas or confront bigger foes.

 

 

When the cap stops most of the content is end game content. Which means youre free of the upgrading and can now do what you want.

 

Heck... players in Warcraft or a lot of MMORPGs just rush through the leveling to get to that END GAME content.

 

 

Why are people approaching gaming like its a dayjob and they need hourly minimum wage

 

Sounds weird to me... you don't just wanna know what happens next in the story? That should be it. The upgrading is just a newly recieved key everytime so you could open the door after the door after the door of the tale thats being told...

Oh please! You're playing a CRPG but don't get why people like to get rewards and like to level? The distinguishing feature of the genre is the reward mechanic, the loot, the leveling, getting stronger, getting new abilities. Of course the story is important, but if it was only about the story I could as well read a book or whatch a movie or play any other kind of game that tells a story. A lot of them do. To say that people who enjoy the reward part are treating the game like work is just silly. Obviously they enjoy it because it's fun. 

Edited by mumbogumshoe
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 I don't know if English is your native language but "incompetence" is not something that can be easily fixed (apart from firing the incompetent employees and replacing them). That is why your comment was rude. 

 

 You may have a point, but there are better ways of expressing it if you want the developers to take you seriously.

 

 

You are mistaken incompetence with stupidity. 

 

Definition of incompetent

1:  not legally qualified

2:  inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose

3 :  lacking the qualities needed for effective action

 

So they would not take me serious because I said that their XP income progression design was totally and utterly incompetent?

Tough luck then. 

Their hurt ego would not match in the slightest my disappointment (and others) and frustration with this XP income design.

Otherwise the 3.05.1186 version of the game proved quite promising, on PoTD difficulty at least.


  After my realization that White March has the same XP reward problem, I don't even have the drive to launch game anymore because I hated so much reaching Twin Elms with a level cap in vanilla PoE that I don't wish to relive that experience.

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I think the OP partially answered his question:

 

1) XP gain was better when the expansions came out (compared to vanilla)

and

2) Yes, you still will reach XP-cap before the end of the game by playing all quests, that is 100% an intended design

 

An IMHO if its not too early (as it was at the beginning) its a good thing: I remember how in Planescape: Torment you could got those awesome end-game spells and only cast them 1 or 2 times!!!! That was some full bull**** thing, specially if you didnt get pharaods sphere to lvl up FAR more than by normal gameplay and the ****ing shadows / or the transcendent were barely injured by 9nth lvl spells with 3mins animations.

 

Reaching cap before the end lets you play with the composition/spells/strategy's etc... and balance better the end encounters without nullifying ALL combat  (cause history, the core experience of an RPG, is NEVER halted) - progression (you still get items/armor/weapons from quests + gold to buy more options).

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Or the challenge and overcoming the challenge is the reward for some. Everyone plays a CRPG for their own reasons. To assume otherwise is an exercise in incompetence.


No matter which fork in the road you take I am certain adventure awaits.

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 I don't know if English is your native language but "incompetence" is not something that can be easily fixed (apart from firing the incompetent employees and replacing them). That is why your comment was rude. 

 

 You may have a point, but there are better ways of expressing it if you want the developers to take you seriously.

 

 

You are mistaken incompetence with stupidity. 

 

Definition of incompetent

1:  not legally qualified

2:  inadequate to or unsuitable for a particular purpose

3 :  lacking the qualities needed for effective action

 

 

No, I am not mistaking incompetence for stupidity. We'll use the definition you just provided. Any of the three things you listed, if true, would get somebody fired and, depending on the circumstances, might get the hiring manager fired as well. 

 

So they would not take me serious because I said that their XP income progression design was totally and utterly incompetent?

 

 Yes, that is correct.  They will not take you seriously. 

 

 

Tough luck then. 

 

 Yes. Tough luck for you if you want your point to be taken seriously.

 

 

Their hurt ego would not match in the slightest my disappointment (and others) and frustration with this XP income design.

 

 That wasn't my point. My point was that PoE, despite it's relatively low budget, was a financially successful and critically acclaimed game. You aren't hurting anybody's ego when you throw around the word "incompetent" to describe a successful, and clearly competent, team of people but, rather, are undermining the point you are trying to make.

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Just as an aside, achievements are not an accurate view of who has done what.  For example, I beat the game on GoG playing without their Steamlike GoG Galaxy, so I never scored a single achievement.  Additionally playing games and then dropping them is insanely common these days, most people (especially PC gamers) haven't even beaten half the games they own.  It is simply too easy and too cheap to get huge amounts of games now. 

Seriously, go look at pretty much any game.  Unless the game is hilariously short or easy you will see normally 30% or less of people who played actually bothered to beat it.

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Just as an aside, achievements are not an accurate view of who has done what.  For example, I beat the game on GoG playing without their Steamlike GoG Galaxy, so I never scored a single achievement.

I had to reset my stats with a cheat due to an early bug. So no achievements for me.

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- Why do you think that smaller parties should have a much higher level? I have not played IWD2. In most IE games, the exp were divided between all chars, but there is no law that says every game must do this. In PoE a full party could reach max level long before the end of the game and solo players reached max level earlier.

 

 

For balance! There is no law, sure, but some games do this, POE too, for whatever reason designers had and scaling XP causes problems there.

 

Another problem of scaling XP is it encourages players to do scaled content (enemies) first and non scaled content (quests) second. It's and example of Order Dependent Character Development, although not the worst one (i'm looking at you G2:NotR and Geneforge 2 :bat: ).

 

The above problem could be avoided by making every XP reward scale but there's another one - it encourages players to do content from lowest challange rating to highest. For open world games, like Witcher 3 or POE2, it's a bad match.

I forgot to mention i was killing stuff in Divinity2 from lowest level to highest.

 

But maybe i'm a little biased, after all i [shamelessselfpromotion] made a Witcher 3 mod called "No Lvl Diff Adjustment" that deals with both XP and enemy scaling [/shamelessselfpromotion] :biggrin:


Vancian =/= per rest.

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An elegant solution to this could be borrowed from IE mod in a form of drop-down menu regulating xp table.

 

not particular elegant as it largely contravenes one o' the goals o' the original poe xp grants-- to make a critical-path-only playthrough viable.  am not sure what the genesis poster's display o' completion % is  meant to indicate, but am thinking a uniform slowing o' xp awards as one levels is unlikely to help increase the completion percentages, eh? 

 

'course am thinking the genesis poster fails to recognize a more salient lesson from his achievement sharings: the level cap is a non-issue for most players. am personal tending to be a bit dismissive o' achievement-based conclusions our self, but taken at face value, an extreme small % of purchasers is going to finish the game and is no way to tell what % o' people who finished the game were ocd completionists, but such is gonna be less than 100%.  

 

am s'posing making the ie mod approach optional could be beneficial.  the completionist could opt for a slower leveling rate while allowing the critical path player to nevertheless have enough xp to success finish the game.

 

alternative would be to simple substantial decrease any non-critical path xp award.  

 

regardless, the biggest question for Gromnir is regarding what the developers has learned since poe.  again, the developers were highly confident regarding their understanding o' experience awards pre-release.  post release we only ever recall hearing from the developers 'bout the bounties as a source o' xp bloat, and clearly the bounties weren't the entirety o' the level cap problem.  am genuine curious to hear 'bout what the developers learned 'bout the causes behind the tendency for completionists to reach the level cap far earlier than anticipated.

 

HA! Good Fun!


"Those who won our independence by revolution were not cowards. They did not fear political change. They did not exalt order at the cost of liberty. To courageous, self-reliant men, with confidence in the power of free and fearless reasoning applied through the processes of popular government, no danger flowing from speech can be deemed clear and present, unless the incidence of the evil apprehended is so imminent that it may befall before there is opportunity for full discussion. If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."--Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

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First, claiming that XP and similar rewards aren't really what counts and that the journey is its own reward, yo man - that's nonsense. It may be for some people but generalising it sounds suspiciously like accusing people of having BAD WRONG FUN.

 

Second: Having the story take over in the end so players keep playing not because the avatars get better but because they want to see the conclusion, is really, really difficult. A lot of traditional RPG side quests are written specifically for giving out XP and loot rewards, with some story to justify that. (It's often even lampshaded by statements like "the hero should do stuff to become better to beat the big bad!") Letting the story be its own reward works for the main story (at least hopefully; PoE was somewhat lacking in creating a sense of urgency there), and it may work for some side quests - but that's limited. You have to establish the characters in a way that the player cares about them (which is hard for side quest characters with a maximum of two paragraphs introducing them). This works better if you concentrate on your main story at that point; it falls flat when you have a lot of side content. PoE introduced Twin Elms, a traditional RPG main hub with many unrelated or only very loosely connected content, at a time when many players already had hit the XP cap - which takes a lot of steam out of "helping random people solve their private quabbles" stories.

Finding that spot where to transition from early to mid-game content with XP and levelling as a major incentive, to the end-game where things are increasingly driven by the story, is not easy. I think one of the main reasons for PoE being criticised so much on that front is that it really missed that spot.

 

And third, for me personally: Outlevelling things should be a viable strategy for most if not all encounters. PoE's bounties would have worked way better if they had maybe netted a lot of money but few XP - they're battles that are perfect for providing a challenge you can't solve by coming back later. For other battles, esp. for the critical path, it should usually be possible.

 

There's no real solution to this, I think, only coming closer. Regarding XP alone, you could cap actual progress at a certain point but continue giving out XP and gaining levels with only small bonuses to statistics, so at least people who like that feeling are somewhat more satisfied.


Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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I dont understand the concept of tgis work ethic when playing games.

 

I need to be rewarded when playing this game.

I need to get experience when i explore more.

I need to level when i accomplish things.

 

The game itself is the reward.

Its not work.

Its leisure time.

Youre having fun.

You explore to see things. Not to get numeric values upgrades.

 

It even counts double for this genre... It's RPG for god's sake.

 

Sounds like an exhausting way of spending any free time.

 

 

Personally for me the leveling is a side effect. Something that makes me better so i can go explore harder areas or confront bigger foes.

 

 

When the cap stops most of the content is end game content. Which means youre free of the upgrading and can now do what you want.

 

Heck... players in Warcraft or a lot of MMORPGs just rush through the leveling to get to that END GAME content.

 

 

Why are people approaching gaming like its a dayjob and they need hourly minimum wage

 

Sounds weird to me... you don't just wanna know what happens next in the story? That should be it. The upgrading is just a newly recieved key everytime so you could open the door after the door after the door of the tale thats being told...

Oh please! You're playing a CRPG but don't get why people like to get rewards and like to level? The distinguishing feature of the genre is the reward mechanic, the loot, the leveling, getting stronger, getting new abilities. Of course the story is important, but if it was only about the story I could as well read a book or whatch a movie or play any other kind of game that tells a story. A lot of them do. To say that people who enjoy the reward part are treating the game like work is just silly. Obviously they enjoy it because it's fun.

I couldnt care a rats ass for leveling.

I autolevel all my npcs.

I get most passive upgrades for me so i wouldnt need to micro a lot and maybe choose an ability that i never use...passives are always on. I never rush to an npc companion to get them before they are higher level. I only upgrade equipment once every 2 or 3 waves of story insteead of every map or hub plus quest

 

In poe1 i think after chapter 1 i re equiped my party like 5x. And only in the last did i enchant.

 

I finish every game with a pocket full of money i never use.

 

Not everybody has Game Asperger's...

Edited by Leeuwenhart

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Forum sins:

1) Vague thread title

2) Claims to be asking PoE2 question, but is thinly veiled PoE1 rant

 

Sorry OP, just taking the mickey out of ya ;)

I'm sure this is a frustrating thing to balance because most PoE players are probably completionists but you have to design for the lowest common denominator. That is, guys who just do the main quests. And WM further complicates things by being mid-game. But hopefully they've learnt from this, and Deadfire will be better balanced.

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It's essentially impossible to get this right, because different people want different things. I've said before that my ideal CRPG would only reward experience for the critical path, thus allowing the levelling curve to be very well controlled by the developers, but I know that a lot of people would hate the idea of not getting experience from side quests. Even for people who like my idea, I am sure there would be disagreement over when the player should hit max level: personally I'd prefer around 80-85% through so that I can play with my finished character, but I am sure others would only want to hit max level right near the end of the game.

 

All that said, I think that most people would agree that PoE levelling was too fast, but luckily one of the people who agrees is Josh so hopefully the curve will be slower in Deadfire.

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"No, I am not mistaking incompetence for stupidity. We'll use the definition you just provided. Any of the three things you listed, if true, would get somebody fired and, depending on the circumstances, might get the hiring manager fired as well."

 

 

 

If you fail to recognize that incompetence can be corrected while stupidity not so easily (sometimes impossible), then may Joe Pesci have mercy on your soul. Also stay away from managing people.

You also think incompetence is on par with stupidity, that's why you quickly jumped to defend dev feelings whining about how rude my comment was, good grief!

It is not.

 

If I am taken seriously or not it doesn't matter at this point. 

The problem would still be there and is recognized by many others whatever if I am taken seriously or not.

Also not taking someone serious just because you feel insulted by a rude comment means you're a narcissist. That's what you're trying to portray the devs?

 

But then you state that they don't get insulted by my rude comment anyway because PoE was "successful and critically acclaimed game." (you even highlight it).

That's the dumbest logic I ever heard. Why would they think their XP income design has a flaw when they have such a great gem of a game on their hands? Duh...

 

So great the game was at launch that only 44% completed act I and 10% finished the game and the game was covered by a gaming media whose journalists were in their infancy when Baldur's Gate 1 first appeared. You can count on them to point the flaws in a spiritual successor, no doubt!

Also PoE 2 had a drop of 55% in backer pledges. Smashing success!

 

I am done debating with obtuse chaps like you.

And you can also go @^#*   %#^%!)#$   (I hope that was rude enough to not take me seriously)


  After my realization that White March has the same XP reward problem, I don't even have the drive to launch game anymore because I hated so much reaching Twin Elms with a level cap in vanilla PoE that I don't wish to relive that experience.

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OK, looks like different people like different things (Amazing, who would have thought that.)

 

So once again, for me the game became much more boring once I hit max level because I lost a reward I got used to get.

I was surprized that somebody managed to finish the game at lv8 (I read this in one thread somewhere). I was not surprized because the battle is so difficult, but because he managed not to hit max level before the game ended.

 

I played WoW for some time. I enjoyed making quests and leveling up my char. Once I hit max level, the game changed from fun to work. Make the same dungoens and quests again every day so you get equipment for the raid. Then do the same raid again every week so you are able to do the same thing on a higher difficulty. It became so boring that I quit playing. I do not understand why people rush to max level and then do the same stuff again and again every week.

 

I have played a lot JRPG. In many of those game you finish the game at lv50 when you follow the main story but max level is 99 and there are some optional bosses ( omega weapon ) where you need a really high level to unlock and finally defeat them. This is what I think of when I think about max level content. PoE had such optional hard fights (bounties, dragons) and they were great. So my problem is not that you can hit max level, my problem is that you will hit max level anyway long before the game is over unless you actively avoid making quests or fighting enemies.

I dislike grinding (which is often present in JRPG) and I have voted to have a bit less trash mobs in PoE2, but I think a player who did all side quests should feel stronger than a player who did only the main quests. If you have max level and equipment from the expansions, what reason do you have to do sidequests in twin elms?

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It's essentially impossible to get this right, because different people want different things.

How can you say it's impossible to get it right for a game where you can calculate the total amount of XP a player can receive because it is finite?

Also there is the possibility to limit the XP rewards for higher difficulty levels.

 

 

Also what's worse? 

 

1. To reach at the end of an RPG where you take that last level with 2 -5 hours gameplay time left and where that last capped level you reach and invest in you character doesn't dramatically changes the gameplay but very slightly?

 

OR

 

2. To play one third of an RPG where you play for hours and hours killing monsters and doing quests without the possibility to advance the character anymore?

 

 

 

but you have to design for the lowest common denominator.

That's right! Good plan all the way. Gone are the days where games were a niche industry and now every frat boy can call himself a gamer.

Also that's the reason games over the years increased in quality and became more and more complex!

Lowest common denominator FTW!

(especially in Deadfire?)

 

 

I mean... reaching level cap in PoE so early was a monumental task to achieve for me that required a vast amount of time and effort!

OCD completionist incarnate I was!

It's not like all the quest givers were just in front of my face all the game and big fat dungeon entrances beckoned me to explore them.

Also... accessing those last levels of Caed Nua... I had to resort to a cryptologist.

Was that hard, believe me!

 

Completing all the bounties?

Had to track the targets for hours on end.

It's not like they were just one click away on the map.

 

Very, very hard I tell you...

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  After my realization that White March has the same XP reward problem, I don't even have the drive to launch game anymore because I hated so much reaching Twin Elms with a level cap in vanilla PoE that I don't wish to relive that experience.

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I dont understand the concept of tgis work ethic when playing games.

 

I need to be rewarded when playing this game.

I need to get experience when i explore more.

I need to level when i accomplish things.

 

The game itself is the reward.

Its not work.

Its leisure time.

Youre having fun.

You explore to see things. Not to get numeric values upgrades.

 

It even counts double for this genre... It's RPG for god's sake.

 

Sounds like an exhausting way of spending any free time.

 

 

Personally for me the leveling is a side effect. Something that makes me better so i can go explore harder areas or confront bigger foes.

 

 

When the cap stops most of the content is end game content. Which means youre free of the upgrading and can now do what you want.

 

Heck... players in Warcraft or a lot of MMORPGs just rush through the leveling to get to that END GAME content.

 

 

Why are people approaching gaming like its a dayjob and they need hourly minimum wage

 

Sounds weird to me... you don't just wanna know what happens next in the story? That should be it. The upgrading is just a newly recieved key everytime so you could open the door after the door after the door of the tale thats being told...

Oh please! You're playing a CRPG but don't get why people like to get rewards and like to level? The distinguishing feature of the genre is the reward mechanic, the loot, the leveling, getting stronger, getting new abilities. Of course the story is important, but if it was only about the story I could as well read a book or whatch a movie or play any other kind of game that tells a story. A lot of them do. To say that people who enjoy the reward part are treating the game like work is just silly. Obviously they enjoy it because it's fun.

I couldnt care a rats ass for leveling.

I autolevel all my npcs.

I get most passive upgrades for me so i wouldnt need to micro a lot and maybe choose an ability that i never use...passives are always on. I never rush to an npc companion to get them before they are higher level. I only upgrade equipment once every 2 or 3 waves of story insteead of every map or hub plus quest

 

In poe1 i think after chapter 1 i re equiped my party like 5x. And only in the last did i enchant.

 

I finish every game with a pocket full of money i never use.

 

Not everybody has Game Asperger's...

 

 

I really don't care how you play your game. It's not my business, no opinion whatsoever about it. But I do find it bloody ridiculous that you act all superior and diagnose people with aspergers for enjoying the core feature of CRPGs in a CRPG.

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I couldnt care a rats ass for leveling.

I autolevel all my npcs.

 

 

 

 

Cool story bro!

But by any chance, have you ever considered you're in the wrong game genre?

Just saying... Maybe it gives you some pause to think and invest your time in something more well suited for your tastes.


  After my realization that White March has the same XP reward problem, I don't even have the drive to launch game anymore because I hated so much reaching Twin Elms with a level cap in vanilla PoE that I don't wish to relive that experience.

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I couldnt care a rats ass for leveling.

I autolevel all my npcs.

 

 

 

Cool story bro!

But by any chance, have you ever considered you're in the wrong game genre?

Just saying... Maybe it gives you some pause to think and invest your time in something more well suited for your tastes.

So theres only 1 way to play a game "bro"

 

Thats exactly my freaking point

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