Tempering Abydon and WM2 Endings *Spoilers*

[Fiaryn]

So I'm trying to prep my final save for PoE2, and the one sticking point I'm having is the finale of WM2. I'd like to temper Abydon but frankly I'm not sure if I can anymore. I get that you need to make two rhetorical points that stick in each category, and I've got the Eyeless to concede the point on history as hindrance and memory as pain.

 

The sticking point is Maybe Abydon Should Forget. I can make the point about Durgan's Battery because I freed the souls but then I run aground. Aloth is anti-Leaden Key so that avenue is out and I sided with Animancy at the hearings. Has anyone who's looked through the code on that dialogue tree any idea if there's other approaches I could take that I just can't see? Some other triggers I could use to make the last point I need?

[Fiaryn]

Alright by digging around in the text files of the game I've found a string that looks promising. Apparently you can make an argument to the Eyeless that people went mad over the death of the Duc, and that there'd be even more chaos if they knew one God had killed another. The trick is I'm not sure how to determine what makes that conversation option possible. Anyone with any insight on how to confirm something like that in the game files?

 

When I did the quest I'd already finished the hearing so you'd think I'd be able to select that but maybe there's more to it. Maybe I need to progress to the point that the riots die down  to trigger it as a dialogue option?

Edited February 25, 2017 by Fiaryn

[tayne]

Combing through the abydon_finale .stringtable and .conversation files, that line regarding the death of the Duc is part of the Aloth-related conversation tree. It does not show if Aloth's autonomy value is greater than his authority value.

 

 

I'm stuck at the same exact place as you with the other two categories won. It's immensely frustrating. 

 

Please Obsidian, for the love of orbs, give us another option or two to win this 

[MalcolmWest]

With the news that POE 2 will allow you to import your old character and certain decisions will impact the story, everyone is suddenly eager to have the eyeless tempered in their canon save, including myself. There's also similar threads on reddit and steam that have popped up in the past few days.

 

Couldn't agree more with Tayne - please Obsidian, give us another option or two to win this! I sided with animancy and encouraged Aloth to be more independent, and now I'm totally stuck

[boffmoffet]

Just gonna leave this link here....

[Quick Tutorial] How to change the WM2 ending.

https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/90887-quick-tutorial-how-to-change-the-wm2-ending/

[Ensign]

Did some digging, and think I can provide a 'legit' way to produce the outcome you want.  The trick is actually to choose your words carefully during the animancy hearing.

 

The Duc's ruling at the end of the hearing depends on arguments made throughout - on the events at the Sanitarium (Azo), research at Heritage Hill, and your closing argument and advice on what to do about animancy.  All three have equal weight.

 

On the other hand, the Eyeless only call you out on being hypocritical if your advice on animancy was that it should be studied (either of the positive lines).

 

If you want the Duc to rule in support of animancy, but still have the option to temper the Eyeless by arguing against it, support animancy in the first two arguments (defend Azo, blame the events at Heritage Hill on the Leaden Key), then, in the final argument, defer - argue that animancy has been given too long a leash and needs oversight.

 

Pair that with freeing the souls from Durgan's Battery (and not encouraging the Crucible Knights to continue researching the Forge Knights) and you should be able to win this line of questioning.

[Murp]

I'm really disappointed that I had to cheat, It just seemed like I was being punished for playing the game a certain way and that felt really unfair. I wish there were more options you know? skill checks at least.

[Achilles]

Obsidian has stated that they will have a mechanism for setting up world states for those players who don't care about the consequences of their choices having an impact on Deadfire.

[Messier-31]

*deleted as things seem to be different*

Edited October 18, 2017 by Messier-31

[Messier-31]

OK, so we know there is a way to get the tempered Abydon ending by meddling with a certain gamefile, courtesy of @skywyze.

 

But what about getting it the legit way?

 

Here is the rundown of known info on that issue from various sources (check below for details). The final conversation has three rhetorical points to make to successfully temper Abydon. They are:

1. "Perhaps Abydon was meant to forget his past. Some knowledge is too dangerous for this world."
2. "You speak as if history were a guide. Yet it doesn't always provide a good example."
3. "Memory remains a burden, even when the events and people it recalls are long gone. It's pain with no purpose."

To advance each point, you have to successfully point to two pieces of evidence.

 

 

1. Perhaps Abydon was meant to forget his past. Some knowledge is too dangerous for this world.

 

For the first main point, there's a default response that you can win no matter what you did previously. It is

• "Kith shouldn't have anything as powerful as the White Forge"

followed up with

• "That nearly ended with the destruction of Durgan's Battery and the death of thousands."

Possible bug! This may be true, but for some reason The Eyeless response for this was holding me responsible for letting the Crucible Knights pursue in making the forge-knights in the quest Winds of Steel. As a matter of fact I never started this quest due to me siding with the Doemenels, but maybe finishing Built to Last is enough for this argument to fail.

 

So that leaves one other piece of evidence needed to advance. You're left with responding with either:

• "Ondra said Abydon's memory would threaten the peace between the gods."
• "Animancy has made no progress, yet it's responsible for wichts, the Baelreach Incident, and the swindle of desperate families."
• "Aloth, you were part of the Leaden Key. Surely you understand why some secrets need to be kept."

The Animancy point is ruled out if you advocated for animancy at the duc's hearing. You have to be against it and blame it for all the bad things that happen in the Dyrwood, so the duc would want to ban it, thus animancy never recovers in the ending slides.

Possible bug! Not sure about being neutral, but the Eyeless tell me that I allowed the duc to let animancers work unchecked. This is silly, as I clearly stated that animancy should be banned *at least for now* and got the neutral ending.

Possible exploit! There is an easy way to overcome this, but you need to finish the whole White March expansion BEFORE the animancy hearings. If so, you can argue that animancy has knowledge best forgotten, the same thing you use if it were to be banned. Later you can proceed to the hearings and convince the duc that animancy is OK (win-win).

 

The point with Aloth only works if he is swayed more toward authority rather than autonomy.

 

The Ondra point is the one where I am still not sure what conditions are necessary for it to "win." If you had perception 12 and intellect 14, you could ask Ondra if she loved Abydon during the conversation at the Abbey. I did that in my playthrough but it still didn't affect the outcome with the Eyeless. They just refute it by saying

• "Conflict is part of progress. Peace in ignorance is not worth keeping."

Perhaps someone can chime in here if they were able to advance this point somehow.

 

 

2. You speak as if history were a guide. Yet it doesn't always provide a good example.

 

For the second main point, what worked for me was using Pallegina and the Devil of Caroc. For Pallegina, I believe she had to have gone against her orders in her personal quest. Start with this response

• "The Dyrwoodans and Glanfathans have fought two wars over their history, and they still haven't moved forward."

and follow up with

• "It doesn't take a war to shatter a nation. Already, Dyrwood's neighbors conspire to strangle it through duplicitous trade agreements. Right, Pallegina?"

To use the Devil of Caroc to make your point, I believe she had to have killed Harmke in her personal quest. Mention this to the Eyeless

• "The Devil's history has only perpetuated a cycle of bloodshed."

and follow up with

• "You talk about history in the abstract, but it is personal. The loss of one's history - home, family, community - is traumatic and transformative."

 

 

3. Memory remains a burden, even when the events and people it recalls are long gone. It's pain with no purpose.

 

For the third main point, there is another default response that you can use to make one argument:

• "I'm Awakened. I'm tormented by questions from a past life."

followed up with

• "Sometimes, moving on is the way to move forward. Remaining stuck in the past is not progress."

I used Maneha for the second piece of evidence needed to win this argument. She had to have cleared her conscience by dipping in the pool at the Abbey in her personal quest.

• "Maneha shouldn't have to suffer guilt over an act she committed in a past life."

Possible bug and exploit! Some players report that even after preventing Maneha from swinnin' in the pool, they get her to speak her line to the Eyeless as if she did forget her past life. So it seems that due to this bug Maneha helps you win the argument either way.

 

Zahua may also prove useful here, as you may convince the monk to let go of his memories and move on in his quest. But I haven't been playing much with him in my party, so I'm not able to use any citation here. I'm pretty sure this one's been confirmed.

 

 

Misc

 

There's been a lot of speculation about other choices made in the game that affect this segment. Just to name a few:

• binding or releasing the souls of the Pargrunen
• killing (or not) the Readcerans in the Iron Flail fort
• choices you make during the Risk Tolerance task

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but at this point I'm nearly certain that they don't matter to the Eyeless and all the important reasons are mentioned above. Of course we still are not sure about the Ondra argument, so this topic needs a little bit more investigation. 

 

 

Sources:

• Obsidian forums post no.1 by @Aramintai
• Obsidian forums post no.2 by @Aramintai
• YouTube comments for @CrankyTemplar video
• Reddit post by @tayns_chaotic_orb
• Own experience (duh)

Edited October 18, 2017 by Messier-31

[Torm51]

Maybe I am dumb but I have read through all this and still do not understand.  I have beaten the game quite a few times.  What is meant by tempering Abydon?

 

I have achieved two endings.  Maybe that is what I am missing?  I sided with Ondra and made sure Abydon forgot and I restored him ensuring that he remembered.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Torm51

[Messier-31]

Maybe I am dumb but I have read through all this and still do not understand.  I have beaten the game quite a few times.  What is meant by tempering Abydon?

 

I have achieved two endings.  Maybe that is what I am missing?  I sided with Ondra and made sure Abydon forgot and I restored him ensuring that he remembered.

 

• IF he ISN'T TEMPERED, then he will be restored as the god of preservation he always used to be. This means remembrence of history to the point that societies need old stories, but also old grudges, in order to thrive. There is a great importance in it, because Abydons thinks that without the lessons from the past you can't have progress. Example: in the ending slides there still are tensions between Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readceran's over their tumultuous history. In this ending Durgan's Battery is functional, raiding of the Engwithan ruins increases - it angers Ondra.
• IF he IS TEMPERED, then he will be restored, but due to your succesful convincing of the Eyeless, Abydon will acknowledge that history sometimes may be a hindrance, as living too much in the past doesn't allow societies to flourish (in other words you make a god change his POV a bit). Thus his dominion over preservation is loosened, so kith could look with hope into the future. Example: in the ending slides Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readcerans learn to co-exist in peace. In this ending Durgan's Battery is functional, but raiding of the Engwithan ruins decreases - this is a compromise for Ondra.
• IF the Eyeless are DESTROYED, Abydon can't be restored, thus he remembers nothing about his death. He remains only a god of the craftsmanship. This emboldens Ondra, that she was right all along, so her dominion of forgetfullnes "wins". Example: in the ending slides Ondra makes sure that things stay forgotten, but Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readcerans find relative peace between them. In this ending the Engwithans ruins are drowned and Durgan's Battery is abandoned once more - it pleases Ondra.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Messier-31

[Madscientist]

My personal point of view:

I will restore Abydon without tempering him because "Those who are unable to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

As a scientist, I consider knowledge as good and ignorance as bad.

In term of gods, I like Abydon and galawain (I am hunting for knowledge in some sense). Find out what you want and do it. If you fail, learn from your mistakes and try again. Obstacles are there in order to overcome them.

I dislike Ondra ( why forget things? Accept the past and learn to deal with it) and Wael (obstuse nonsense, why would you hide knowledge).

I somehow congradulate the devs for creating the leaden key as the most "evil" enemy ever.

Most bad guys do what they do in order to gain power.

The leaden key is committing crimes in oder to hide secrets they themselves do not know. I think you need really lots of fanatism to do this and consider it as something that is nessesscary or even "good".

 

I think that nothing, not even the gods or their followers, can save people from their own stupidity.

[Torm51]

 

Maybe I am dumb but I have read through all this and still do not understand.  I have beaten the game quite a few times.  What is meant by tempering Abydon?

 

I have achieved two endings.  Maybe that is what I am missing?  I sided with Ondra and made sure Abydon forgot and I restored him ensuring that he remembered.

 

• IF he ISN'T TEMPERED, then he will be restored as the god of preservation he always used to be. This means remembrence of history to the point that societies need old stories, but also old grudges, in order to thrive. There is a great importance in it, because Abydons thinks that without the lessons from the past you can't have progress. Example: in the ending slides there still are tensions between Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readceran's over their tumultuous history. In this ending Durgan's Battery is functional, raiding of the Engwithan ruins increases - it angers Ondra.
• IF he IS TEMPERED, then he will be restored, but due to your succesful convincing of the Eyeless, Abydon will acknowledge that history sometimes may be a hindrance, as living too much in the past doesn't allow societies to flourish (in other words you make a god change his POV a bit). Thus his dominion over preservation is loosened, so kith could look with hope into the future. Example: in the ending slides Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readcerans learn to co-exist in peace. In this ending Durgan's Battery is functional, but raiding of the Engwithan ruins decreases - this is a compromise for Ondra.
• IF the Eyeless are DESTROYED, Abydon can't be restored, thus he remembers nothing about his death. He remains only a god of the craftsmanship. This emboldens Ondra, that she was right all along, so her dominion of forgetfullnes "wins". Example: in the ending slides Ondra makes sure that things stay forgotten, but Dyrwoodans, Glanfathans and Readcerans find relative peace between them. In this ending the Engwithans ruins are drowned and Durgan's Battery is abandoned once more - it pleases Ondra.

 

Ok yes I know all this and understand now lol.  Dont know why Tempered was confusing me lmao

[Torm51]

My personal point of view:

I will restore Abydon without tempering him because "Those who are unable to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it."

As a scientist, I consider knowledge as good and ignorance as bad.

In term of gods, I like Abydon and galawain (I am hunting for knowledge in some sense). Find out what you want and do it. If you fail, learn from your mistakes and try again. Obstacles are there in order to overcome them.

I dislike Ondra ( why forget things? Accept the past and learn to deal with it) and Wael (obstuse nonsense, why would you hide knowledge).

I somehow congradulate the devs for creating the leaden key as the most "evil" enemy ever.

Most bad guys do what they do in order to gain power.

The leaden key is committing crimes in oder to hide secrets they themselves do not know. I think you need really lots of fanatism to do this and consider it as something that is nessesscary or even "good".

 

I think that nothing, not even the gods or their followers, can save people from their own stupidity.

I agree with you.  I too am a fan of Galawain and Abydon.  I was a military guy and the hunt to consistently improve yourself in your job and physically was always with me.  It still is, and like you said obstaclse are there to be overcome.  I had many of them and still do.  I also like Abydon for the same reason.

 

I dislike Ondra as well.  I remember my past mistakes in order to learn from them.  I sided with her once for the ending and well my character figured that if Abydon remembered there might be another catastrophic war between gods and he wanted to spare people this possibility.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Torm51

[Frykas]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:40 PM, Ensign said:

Did some digging, and think I can provide a 'legit' way to produce the outcome you want.  The trick is actually to choose your words carefully during the animancy hearing.

 

The Duc's ruling at the end of the hearing depends on arguments made throughout - on the events at the Sanitarium (Azo), research at Heritage Hill, and your closing argument and advice on what to do about animancy.  All three have equal weight.

 

On the other hand, the Eyeless only call you out on being hypocritical if your advice on animancy was that it should be studied (either of the positive lines).

 

If you want the Duc to rule in support of animancy, but still have the option to temper the Eyeless by arguing against it, support animancy in the first two arguments (defend Azo, blame the events at Heritage Hill on the Leaden Key), then, in the final argument, defer - argue that animancy has been given too long a leash and needs oversight.

 

Pair that with freeing the souls from Durgan's Battery (and not encouraging the Crucible Knights to continue researching the Forge Knights) and you should be able to win this line of questioning.

Just an addendum, not all arguments are equal, here you'll have precise information about weight of the points made: https://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Animancy_hearings