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Might attribute and the flimsy wizard

attributes might changes from PoE physical strength spiritual strength

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#41
Baltic

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@Baltic,
 
That's a lovely example to illustrate how simple it all is and how silly it is to "overthink" this whole Might thing. So now that Deadfire has multiclassing, what would a Barbarian/Wizard use to intimidate someone? Better yet, how would Barbarian/Wizard A's intimidation differ from the very differently-built Barbarian/Wizard B's intimidation?

I guess that’s to the choice of the individual Wizard/Barabarian I guess it would depend on the situation but if you were strong and knew magic you’d probably try and demonstrate with both.
I meant more along the lines of whilst high Might wizards or druids would probably use some sort of ‘force push’ to knock down a wall, low might Wizards or Druids could also probably use a spell to do it. Whilst Obsidian could have done better at explaining Might than they did, when spellcasters are involved scripted interactions and conversations are likely always gonna have a few ‘Why I can’t I use magic?’ moments. Does that make any sense?

#42
Gliese581

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The might -checks from Pillars could even be split between Might and Constitution so that Constitution gives you all the "I'm physically powerful" options whereas Might retains all the "I'm very capable" more general power statements.
 


Here is the issue:

“Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defence.”

Might represent both physical strength of your character and magic/spiritual strength.

While Constitution:

“Constitution is a combination of the character's overall health and endurance. Although it is not used much in interactions, it is sometimes checked to withstand pain or endure a physically taxing ordeal.”

So while a character with low might but high constitution could do Captain America’s “I can do this all day!” routine, or sustain environmental dangers (like escaping from burning house in white march) he is unlikely to threaten someone or lift heavy stuff.

For me It would be enough if they would explain lorewise how physical strength correlates with powerful spell casting.

 

 

If Obsidian just needs to slightly alter the ingame descriptions of their attributes it doesn't seem like an insurmountable obstacle to me, the question is if it would be better than what they did for Pillars 1.

 

 

 

All this back and forth on this is only because for some reason people cant seperate physical strength from "might" Might has no direct connection to specific origin of strength (physical or magical) its simply "the power to do something" whether through physical or magical means. no mental gymnastics required its simply a false perception that might is defined as only physical strength.

 

Incorrect.

 

All this back-and-forth is unnecessary, I'll give you that. However, there's a single, perfectly valid problem with all-encompassing Might, and that's simply that it makes a world in which neither physical strength nor non-physical strength can be measured. If a Wizard has 18 Might, what kind of physical strength does he have? He has ??? physical Strength, because "Wizards' Might is their MAGICAL power, 8D!". That's great, but he still has a body and a capability. Same with a Barbarian. He still has a mind and a magical capacity (in the PoE world), even if he doesn't cast spells, per se. So, which are you measuring on each character? Both (in which case all Wizards are the hugest, Conan-y dudes ever), or only one on any given character.

 

Thus, imagine your party is trapped in a cell and there's a nearby device that's like a magical EMP. If your Wizard has high MAGICAL strength but is a feeble, no-muscley tiny person, then he can't do much. If he IS muscle-y and physically strong, then maybe he can break or lift something. Reciprocally, if everyone's tied up or restrained, but your Wizard is super magically powerful, then he can do magic stuff to significantly affect the situation, as distinct from physical things.

 

The all-encompassing "Might" allows for neither of these scenarios. The game simply cannot measure physical strength as distinct from magical strength, even though they both exist. So, to just say "Wizard's power is magical, and Warrior's power is physical" doesn't cut it. That's ignoring that 2 things are defined, and neither is ever measured.

 

 

I agree the problem is that you can't distinguish the types of Might that Might represent in the Pillars system. If magic was tied directly to physical prowess and this was clearly communicated in the game that would be different and might even be quite interesting but that's not what was done.

 

In any case I went over all of the backer updates including the latest one about multiclassing and one of the passive skills you can aquire for all characters is named "Intimidation" so it would seem my point might be moot and they have already divorced Might and Intimidation for Deadfire. Josh Sawyer also talked about abilities such as spell-casting being a part of challenges so presumably we will get into situations in the storybook interactions we can specifically magick our way out of as well.



#43
Lord_Mord

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Regarding might in scripted interactions: Would it make sense to check two attributes instead of one? So opening a door could work like that:

- Minimum Mig plus minimum Con: Bash door
- Minimum Mig plus minimum Int: Bash door with magic


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#44
DigitalCrack

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completely agree concerning the scripted interactions regarding might. it isnt clear in those instances. My earlier comment was purely towards people wanting magic damage on a seperate stat because "might=muscles." As someone said earlier the expansion and revamp of the skills system may have fixed this in regards to scripted interactions.
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#45
wolfstriked

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A Magic attribute :facepalm:



#46
Lephys

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@Baltic:

 

Your uncertainty in that response illustrates my point. Basically, you're correct, but that just means that All Barbarian/Wizards are equally as strong physically as they are magically. Which kind of goes against multi-classing, but only in character measurements. In other words, everyone with muscles doesn't have magic (a pure Barbarian doesn't "use magic." Sure, he does "magical" soul ability stuff, but there's something different about what a Wizard can do that the Barbarian cannot do, as stated in both game mechanics AND lore). Yet, everyone with X amount of magical power has either an equal amount of muscle power, OR an indefinite amount of either. This isn't about just making perfect sense, or being realistic. Within the game world's own context, it has decreed that each individual person possesses both physical differences of size and strength, AND differences in magical prowess, but the stat just measures both at the same time, or ambiguously only one or the other at the very least.

 

 

Regarding might in scripted interactions: Would it make sense to check two attributes instead of one? So opening a door could work like that:

- Minimum Mig plus minimum Con: Bash door
- Minimum Mig plus minimum Int: Bash door with magic

 

That would be better, yes, but it still doesn't really solve the problem. Fighters with high Int would still be bashing the door down with magic, even though they don't really use potent magic.

 

Also, it's not really about the semantics of what the text states that the character is doing. Your example is one of a feat that can be performed by either type of power. Imagine if there was something in the game that could only be overcome via magical power, OR can only be overcome by physical power. How, then, do you determine that character A can overcome it, but character B cannot? The game is literally incapable of determining that, because Might measures both.

 

Simply put, the all-encompassing Might stat causes a couple of problems, AND separately there are improvements to be made in the checking system (check abilities and more stats, etc. to produce more interesting interactions than just "are you powerful?! YOU BLOWED UP THING WITH FORCE!" The first problem (Might stat) isn't a humungous problem, but not-changing it just makes the solution to the second problem more convoluted, (i.e. "just keep checking Might + other stuff until you sort of maybe measure the thing you're wanting to, but still quite don't because Might's arbitrarily two measurements in one").


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#47
rjshae

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The "problem" with the Mig stat is player preconception. Viewed without that bias, Mig does the job its supposed to do just fine.


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#48
DigitalCrack

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really what could determine your options would be class. So if your a magically inclined class you get magic versions of might choices in scripted events and if physical you get physical versions. In the event of a multiclass situation you would simply offer both options so they could either pull the wall down with muscles or magic. This would also allow for you to have scripted events that could require a physical or magical version of a might check to pass.

edit: I realize multiclass (magical/physical based) would have an advantage of more choice but thats the benefit of being hybrid instead of specialized.

Edited by DigitalCrack, 13 October 2017 - 08:45 AM.


#49
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It sounds like we may not be using attributes in dialogue in the same way, so we shouldn't have any wizards intimidating people with their jelly arms.

 

Scripted interactions could just be worded differently. Using magical force instead of heaving and shoving.

 

But then, it doesn't make sense for might to increase gun damage, does it? Some things we may have to just learn to roll with.



#50
Lephys

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The "problem" with the Mig stat is player preconception. Viewed without that bias, Mig does the job its supposed to do just fine.

 

This is simply incorrect. It's not about bias or preconception, it's about the literal purpose of stats. They are simply player metrics. Why? Because, well, imagine PoE without any stats, (nothing else added to compensate, just no stats), then tell me nothing would be missing. Imagine that everything's subjective, and there's no objective reason for the existence of stats within an RPG system. Can you tell me what's missing in that hypothetical? Of course you can.

 

Same thing with Might. If I were a developer, and I wanted to quite feasibly take advantage of a character metric that exists within the game world (physical strength), in the interest of creating a scenario in which ONE Wizard might be able to do something that a different type of Wizard would be unable to do, I am unable to do it. In the equation, Might is a big "(X+Y)", and I cannot call upon either X or Y, separately, even though they exist. I'm not inventing muscles or arcane power. They both exist, as dictated by the game.

 

Maybe Might does everything that you and Obsidian want it to do, but that's not the same thing as doing what it's "supposed to." Or, to be more technically specific, the stat system is not doing what it is supposed to do. If you had a system whose stats were only Tallness, Gumption, and Hair, would you tell me that "Meh, if that's how the person who invented it wanted it to be, then it does everything it needs to do"? Would it be simple bias that anyone would have any kind of a problem with those stats, as entire character metrics?

 

I really wish you would put as much effort into actually explaining how the problem is only player preconception as I put into explaining my point. Everyone keeps trying to shoot down this stuff with "Nope, sorry. Incorrect. Also you just like DnD stats too much" or some such nonsense. Just because two things happen to be similar doesn't mean they correlate. I'm not biased against anything. I'm objectively evaluating the stat system as it exists, in the unbiased context of an RPG that aims to do what it is RPGs do. The Might stat (amongst others) have shortcomings within this context, not simply as compared to one or another attribute systems that I just so happen to like. If I like a different stat system, it's because it does a better job of actually providing character metrics that support more creativity in the game world. Not "because it's stat system X."



#51
Lephys

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But then, it doesn't make sense for might to increase gun damage, does it? Some things we may have to just learn to roll with.

Or they could be changed. It's an option, *shrug*.

 

The gun-damage thing is just another symptom. The problem generates so many little symptoms that are easy to shrug off individually, but when observed collectively serve to illuminate the problem.


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#52
Lord_Mord

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Fighters with high Int would still be bashing the door down with magic, even though they don't really use potent magic.

 

Of course the above was meant for wizards only.



#53
Lephys

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@Lord_Mord:

 

That only illustrates the problem further. It was MEANT for Wizards, but it doesn't apply to only the things it was meant for, as there can still be high-INT Fighters.



#54
rjshae

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The "problem" with the Mig stat is player preconception. Viewed without that bias, Mig does the job its supposed to do just fine.

 

This is simply incorrect. It's not about bias or preconception, it's about the literal purpose of stats. They are simply player metrics. Why? Because, well, imagine PoE without any stats, (nothing else added to compensate, just no stats), then tell me nothing would be missing. Imagine that everything's subjective, and there's no objective reason for the existence of stats within an RPG system. Can you tell me what's missing in that hypothetical? Of course you can.

 

Same thing with Might. If I were a developer, and I wanted to quite feasibly take advantage of a character metric that exists within the game world (physical strength), in the interest of creating a scenario in which ONE Wizard might be able to do something that a different type of Wizard would be unable to do, I am unable to do it. In the equation, Might is a big "(X+Y)", and I cannot call upon either X or Y, separately, even though they exist. I'm not inventing muscles or arcane power. They both exist, as dictated by the game.

 

Maybe Might does everything that you and Obsidian want it to do, but that's not the same thing as doing what it's "supposed to." Or, to be more technically specific, the stat system is not doing what it is supposed to do. If you had a system whose stats were only Tallness, Gumption, and Hair, would you tell me that "Meh, if that's how the person who invented it wanted it to be, then it does everything it needs to do"? Would it be simple bias that anyone would have any kind of a problem with those stats, as entire character metrics?

 

I really wish you would put as much effort into actually explaining how the problem is only player preconception as I put into explaining my point. Everyone keeps trying to shoot down this stuff with "Nope, sorry. Incorrect. Also you just like DnD stats too much" or some such nonsense. Just because two things happen to be similar doesn't mean they correlate. I'm not biased against anything. I'm objectively evaluating the stat system as it exists, in the unbiased context of an RPG that aims to do what it is RPGs do. The Might stat (amongst others) have shortcomings within this context, not simply as compared to one or another attribute systems that I just so happen to like. If I like a different stat system, it's because it does a better job of actually providing character metrics that support more creativity in the game world. Not "because it's stat system X."

 

Well, I can't say you actually convinced me of anything with these statements. Take the Wasteland series, which uses an attribute called "Luck". Does it have anything to do with the actual physical attributes of the character? No, of course not. It's a tuning parameter; a hidden attribute. Luck is provided as a random modifier to certain outcomes. People here keep trying to attribute the Might attribute to a mechanical function. But is it? Or is it a value for chi in a world setting with a different physics? Somebody says I want to build a "wimpy Wizard/Barbarian". Okay, call him a wimpy Wizard/Barbarian with poor muscle tone but with a powerful chi drive to propel a great axe or cast a fireball. Or some other explanation. Might can just as well be a tuning parameter. Toss out your expectations and adapt to the setting as it is.


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#55
Varana

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I also see the main issues with this (apart from player expectation) in implementation and communication to the player.
Is it possible to design a system that uses MIG for the purposes it serves in PoE, mechanically? Sure. But you have to think it through and use the stat, accordingly.
For instance, you could just not use attribute checks for physical feats and check some skill like Athletics instead. If you want to know whether your wizard will be able to bend prison bars with her bare hands, you look at Athletics. But that has to be done consistently for that attribute/skill combination.
You also don't need to do that for every attribute. CRPGs have limited gameplay focus, and if you don't check some things, you don't need to simulate them. Does beauty have to be represented in stats? In a tabletop game, some mechanic would probably be useful. In a CRPG, you can just decide to leave it to the player, and model RES and Speechcraft, or some such thing.
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#56
MortyTheGobbo

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We do get more skills in Deadfire, so it's entirely possible we'll see less attribute checks and more skill checks.



#57
Lord_Mord

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That only illustrates the problem further. It was MEANT for Wizards, but it doesn't apply to only the things it was meant for, as there can still be high-INT Fighters.

 

*sigh*

Do you really have no imagination at all, or are you just enjoying the discussion?


if( fighter ) {

   if( mig > 13 && con > 10 ) {
      kick in door
   }

} else if( wizard ) {
   if( mig > 13 && con > 10) {

      kick in door
   } else if( mig > 13 && int > 10 ) {

      use magic to destroy door
   }

}


P.S.: I know this piece of pseudocode is ****ty. I just wanted to write it down in an understandable way.


Edited by Lord_Mord, 16 October 2017 - 01:27 AM.


#58
Lephys

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Well, I can't say you actually convinced me of anything with these statements. Take the Wasteland series, which uses an attribute called "Luck". Does it have anything to do with the actual physical attributes of the character? No, of course not.

 

Nowhere in any of my post that you quoted (nor in any unquoted posts) did I say anything about attributes bearing the requirement of making physical measurements. I merely said that they are player metrics.

 

If you're going to keep telling someone to toss out their expectations and adapt, you might want to put a hold on your own expectations of their general argument, until you've actually read and evaluated the words that they've presented. Also, the sheer amount of mental effort I've put into evaluating this seems far more adaptive than the "Nah, it's all fine, and the hundreds of people who have brought up individual arguments and breakdowns of this are all just narrow-minded and need to deal with it" notion that you seem to be ferociously holding to. I do not understand why, as you are and have been an extremely valuable collaborator on these forums.

 

To clarify, it's fine that you disagree with me, but you could at least show enough respect to disagree on the same level, and not with a little hand-wave that already assumes the entire idea behind my argument was wrong before my argument even got around to being made. I just honestly cannot see how you're giving my posts much thought if you think "Luck isn't physical, and it's an attribute" somehow shot down any percentage of my presented argument.



#59
Lephys

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@Lord_Mord:

 

Ahh, I appreciate it. I honestly just wasn't understanding how you meant that "That was only meant for wizard" bit. Sorry about that.

 

Yeah, it works, but it doesn't change the fact that something's missing, and it only illustrates that one, "doesn't really matter how you do it" scenario of kicking in a door.

 

To not-measure Strength is not morally wrong or evil, all right? I've made my arguments as objective as possible. Yes, if they just called "Might" something else, like "Power" or "Damage" or something, AND didn't actually represent it as your character's strength (if it was ONLY like... "spirit power" or something and the whole game just said "F you!" to any measurement or reference of physical strength), then stuff would be a bit better. Still, strength is a commonly used stat in rulesets for a reason, as it effects so many different possibilities in an RPG setting. Anything else that is a separate power source (i.e. arcane magic, priest faith/devotion, etc.) is an entirely separate thing that can have very interesting pros and cons when compared to physical strength. We're talking about the possibilities here. So, to say "Meh, the strength of your soul is just how strong anything you do is going to be" sort of throws a lot of that out the window, which is unfortunate.

 

That's the gist of the Might "problem." It's semantics, and oversimplified character metrics, AND it's just plain a poorly-chosen compromise that didn't really accomplish much in the way of eliminating dump stats, etc (and it was not the best way to eliminate dump stats, either). I understand that they had a time crunch and limited resources, so I don't blame them for doing it. This isn't about bashing Obsidian. This is about striving for the best design there can be. So, ideally, much more can be accomplished, reasonably, within the stat system than they are currently accomplishing.

 

I'm not posting any of this to make anyone agree with me. I'm posting it on the off chance that someone actually cares to consider it fully, thereby reinforcing whatever conclusion they end up reaching after such consideration (even if it's their same conclusion, but with a greater consideration backing it, and possibly even for new reasons.) And I don't mind anyone disagreeing here. I'm just sick of people trying to highlander the discussion (there can be only ONE idea) and trying to shoot down any other NOTIONS in here, rather than the actual arguments that are being presented for those notions.

 

It's as if some people cannot even fathom how any human being could possibly have a problem with the current stat system, or simply believe there to be a different way of doing it.


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#60
Abel

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I agree with the people who have a problem with the might attribute as it is. I already stated this before in these forums. My character is a female pale elf priestess. Tiny, feeble. I would like to measure her physical strength (low) separately from her magical power (potent). But can't. Her character sheet does not make sense to me, which is a problem since i roleplay her as much as possible.

 

This is a big flaw of the game to me. One of the worst (with the rest system). I don't have much hope of it being ever fixed though.

 

Lephys pretty much spoke for me. I agree with everything he said, down to the "i'm sick..." part.


Edited by Abel, 17 October 2017 - 04:49 PM.

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