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Might attribute and the flimsy wizard

attributes might changes from PoE physical strength spiritual strength

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#21
Ninjamestari

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I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.



#22
Leeuwenhart

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Hello! i get frustrated every time i remember that physical and spiritual strength are inevitably related,
The other characteristics included on the other attributed are more logically related, but physical and spiritual strength? Someone else bothers this? Hope this is changed.

I had this idea:(sorry, cant avoid it :v)
Might having two branches, one for physical strength and one for spiritual, if you have 16 might, you have 16 on physical and 16 on spiritual, you can relocate points from physical to spiritual and vise-versa, of course the bonuses on combat would be really small, but now there would be physical and spiritual strength attribute checks, so you can role a pure muscular with arcane dysfunction or a flimsy arcane genius wizard


You're not the only one, but apparently such criticism is considered a sort of blasphemy here so watch your back. All in all I think their decision to go with this system alienates way more people than it attracts, and was, and still is, one major reason I didn't back the first game and I'm not going to back this one. I'll buy it if it seems good enough, just like I did with the first game.


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#23
draego

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I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is not necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 


Edited by jnb0364, 20 February 2017 - 08:06 AM.

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#24
Fardragon

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Some tank builds don't need perception.



#25
Archaven

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I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 

 

 

I take it that it has pros and cons. Pros being fail safe that no one will build a bad character. Cons being possibly stats being "irrelevant" and solely for min-maxing. And if they decided to not off balance, might as well remove ability scores all together. Like many "simplified" RPGs ala Dragon Age Inquistion. 



#26
Varana

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I would actually welcome a fantasy world that does away with the old "squishy wizard bookworm" trope and introduces wizards that need to be physically strong. Fantasy is so tediously entrenched in its clichés that it's kind of boring sometimes. It's fantasy, you can do almost anything!

But if you do that, it has to be consistent. From actually describing wizards that way, to including obligatory gym membership in your setting's Hogwarts, to wizards doing appropriate tasks in non-wizarding daily life. That's where PoE fell short - it sold its wizards as traditional bookworms and required them to be physically strong in stats.
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#27
Leeuwenhart

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In storytelling.
Not in stats.

If stats were same but your convo or cutscene said forcepush instead of push or blow door instead of kick door it would be ok

#28
Varana

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Not exactly sure what you mean.
Stats and story should go hand in hand. Both are different sides of the same coin. Characters can't do anything in the story when their stats don't allow it; what they can do in the story, should be reflected in their stats. That's how it should be.
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#29
Leeuwenhart

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Not exactly sure what you mean.
Stats and story should go hand in hand. Both are different sides of the same coin. Characters can't do anything in the story when their stats don't allow it; what they can do in the story, should be reflected in their stats. That's how it should be.


Like the coin in your example might has two sides

Might for a fighter means physical brawn
Might for a wizard means arcane power


Same stat. Different wording.

Edited by Leeuwenhart, 20 February 2017 - 10:53 AM.


#30
Ninjamestari

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I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is not necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 

 

 

Despite my strong support of the AD&D multi-classing, that is about the only thing I liked about those rules. 3rd edition did the stats far better, and I think it's dishonest to automatically compare the current system to the absolutely worst version of D&D out there that has been used in a crpg.



#31
draego

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I really don't see why they even changed the system that worked for D&D so well. Strength describes a physical trait of a character perfectly, and there are consequences for having low or high strength. And since there is one other attribute that is problematic, namely perception because through providing accuracy, it is necessary for everyone. So remove perception, add Willpower that improves the power of spells and spell like abilities akin to Might, and split accuracy between accuracy for spells that comes from intelligence and an accuracy for physical attacks that comes from dexterity. Problem solved.

 

It didn't work well in baldur's gate d&d. you couldnt make a low int wizard or a low might fighter. This is the point you didn't even have a choice. At least in POE there is some choice. And no perception is not necessary for everyone. I've made builds with leaving perception even or slightly below. POE was a step in the right direction. If they tweek it i hope they dont go back to BG style for sure. 

 

 

Despite my strong support of the AD&D multi-classing, that is about the only thing I liked about those rules. 3rd edition did the stats far better, and I think it's dishonest to automatically compare the current system to the absolutely worst version of D&D out there that has been used in a crpg.

 

 

I understand but that is what the game was originally compared to so i may have just misunderstood your reference to d&d



#32
Ninjamestari

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Fair enough. The point is merely that a stat system can be used to describe character traits in a meaningful way without removing choice altogether. Physical strength can be useful for a spellcaster just like Intelligence can be useful for a Fighter without succumbing to completely arbitrary effects like AoE & Duration. Strength should be a purely physical stat, although no one has said there can't be certain spells that benefit from high strength; for example conjuring a powerful magical current might require certain amount of physical prowess to hold onto, but it shouldn't directly affect spell damage so that wizards don't have to be steroid pumped body-builders, but there would still be room for a wizard build that can potentially utilize a higher strenght.


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#33
rjshae

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I have no problem to might as it is now. Whenever I build a "weak" character it is constitution that determines the physical condition

 

They could emphasize the muscular aspect of the Constitution stat more by putting in minimum Con requirements for the various armor, shields, and weapons. If you want to wear heavy plate mail, carry a tower shield, and wield a two-headed battle axe, then you need a higher Con to wield those without a penalty. But it seems unlikely they would ever implement something like that.


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#34
Gliese581

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Hello guys, first time posting here. What do you think of tying the Might stat in conversations from Pillars to Constitution instead? That way your mighty Wizard doesn't have to be physically brawny and Obsidian don't have to tweak dialgoue to encompass both the brawny Fighter and the mighty Wizard doing the same thing in conversations.

 

The might -checks from Pillars could even be split between Might and Constitution so that Constitution gives you all the "I'm physically powerful" options whereas Might retains all the "I'm very capable" more general power statements.

 

If you add such a system then with the multiclassing a Fighter/Wizard that invests in both Might and Constitution could presumably use both types of lines in dialogue so you could still play as the brawny Wizard if you wanted to.



#35
Wormerine

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The might -checks from Pillars could even be split between Might and Constitution so that Constitution gives you all the "I'm physically powerful" options whereas Might retains all the "I'm very capable" more general power statements.
 


Here is the issue:

“Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defence.”

Might represent both physical strength of your character and magic/spiritual strength.

While Constitution:

“Constitution is a combination of the character's overall health and endurance. Although it is not used much in interactions, it is sometimes checked to withstand pain or endure a physically taxing ordeal.”

So while a character with low might but high constitution could do Captain America’s “I can do this all day!” routine, or sustain environmental dangers (like escaping from burning house in white march) he is unlikely to threaten someone or lift heavy stuff.

For me It would be enough if they would explain lorewise how physical strength correlates with powerful spell casting.

#36
DigitalCrack

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The might -checks from Pillars could even be split between Might and Constitution so that Constitution gives you all the "I'm physically powerful" options whereas Might retains all the "I'm very capable" more general power statements.

Here is the issue:

“Might represents a character's physical and spiritual strength, brute force as well as their ability to channel powerful magic. During interactions, it can be useful for intimidating displays and acts of brute force. In combat, it contributes to both Damage and Healing as well as the Fortitude defence.”

Might represent both physical strength of your character and magic/spiritual strength.

While Constitution:

“Constitution is a combination of the character's overall health and endurance. Although it is not used much in interactions, it is sometimes checked to withstand pain or endure a physically taxing ordeal.”

So while a character with low might but high constitution could do Captain America’s “I can do this all day!” routine, or sustain environmental dangers (like escaping from burning house in white march) he is unlikely to threaten someone or lift heavy stuff.

For me It would be enough if they would explain lorewise how physical strength correlates with powerful spell casting.
All this back and forth on this is only because for some reason people cant seperate physical strength from "might" Might has no direct connection to specific origin of strength (physical or magical) its simply "the power to do something" whether through physical or magical means. no mental gymnastics required its simply a false perception that might is defined as only physical strength.

Edited by DigitalCrack, 12 October 2017 - 06:25 AM.

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#37
Wormerine

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All this back and forth on this is only because for some reason people cant seperate physical strength from "might" Might has no direct connection to specific origin of strength (physical or magical) its simply "the power to do something" whether through physical or magical means. no mental gymnastics required its simply a false perception that might is defined as only physical strength.


... this is how the game defines it. Might determines how hard you hit (with physical weapons), it is a check for all physique connected rolls (intimidate someone with your posture, lift an object, push the wall etc), while also reflecting spellcaster’s spell power. It IS strength and more.
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#38
Lephys

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All this back and forth on this is only because for some reason people cant seperate physical strength from "might" Might has no direct connection to specific origin of strength (physical or magical) its simply "the power to do something" whether through physical or magical means. no mental gymnastics required its simply a false perception that might is defined as only physical strength.

 

Incorrect.

 

All this back-and-forth is unnecessary, I'll give you that. However, there's a single, perfectly valid problem with all-encompassing Might, and that's simply that it makes a world in which neither physical strength nor non-physical strength can be measured. If a Wizard has 18 Might, what kind of physical strength does he have? He has ??? physical Strength, because "Wizards' Might is their MAGICAL power, 8D!". That's great, but he still has a body and a capability. Same with a Barbarian. He still has a mind and a magical capacity (in the PoE world), even if he doesn't cast spells, per se. So, which are you measuring on each character? Both (in which case all Wizards are the hugest, Conan-y dudes ever), or only one on any given character.

 

Thus, imagine your party is trapped in a cell and there's a nearby device that's like a magical EMP. If your Wizard has high MAGICAL strength but is a feeble, no-muscley tiny person, then he can't do much. If he IS muscle-y and physically strong, then maybe he can break or lift something. Reciprocally, if everyone's tied up or restrained, but your Wizard is super magically powerful, then he can do magic stuff to significantly affect the situation, as distinct from physical things.

 

The all-encompassing "Might" allows for neither of these scenarios. The game simply cannot measure physical strength as distinct from magical strength, even though they both exist. So, to just say "Wizard's power is magical, and Warrior's power is physical" doesn't cut it. That's ignoring that 2 things are defined, and neither is ever measured.


Edited by Lephys, 12 October 2017 - 08:43 AM.

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#39
Baltic

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Whilst Obsidian could define and show might better, as soon as you start thinking too much about these options you run into trouble. Yes a high might wizard would probably use magic to intimidate people but so would a might 3 level 1 wizard.

#40
Lephys

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@Baltic,

 

That's a lovely example to illustrate how simple it all is and how silly it is to "overthink" this whole Might thing. So now that Deadfire has multiclassing, what would a Barbarian/Wizard use to intimidate someone? Better yet, how would Barbarian/Wizard A's intimidation differ from the very differently-built Barbarian/Wizard B's intimidation?







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