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freche

Please, never redo White March encounters

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Have had the game since release but never got to finish it, making an attempt right now.

 

 

Got into White March and all I see, everywhere I go there are hordes of enemies that just bum rush everything. Is this your idea for "difficult" encounters?

 

Hordes of enemies is the lamest **** design you can do, enemies got one job, kill you and they got one shot at it, so they can unload everything. But the player needs to survive multiple of encounters and that includes having both spell slots and health pool, unless you want to rest spam but I doubt that is intended.

 

Doesn't help that they just ignore engagement. "Ohh you engaged me? How cute, you need 15 hits kill me anyway so I'll give you that one freebie. I gonna go over there and kill your friend, because he dies in 4 hits and if you try to follow me my 3 friends here will get a couple of free attacks each and you will end up eating dirt, toodeloo!"

Edited by freche
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For a contrary point of view, I enjoyed most of the WM1/2 combat.

​Crowd control is your friend.  Tactical positioning is your friend, to keep monsters off of your more frail characters.  And above all, it increases the importance of secondary character attributes.  It makes sense for creatures to attack pure "glass cannons" first and take them out of the fight early.  This makes defense something that's actually important, whether from spells, equipment, tactics, or attribute/stat allocations.

​I won't say there's no room for improvement in PoE1 combat... but I also disagree with your perception of where the major points of potential improvement lie.​  The last thing I want is to see it end up as simplistic MMPORG-like "taunt mechanic" combat: a really stout tank or two "gains the aggro" and everybody else fires at will.

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I like it that the "one tank to glue them all" approach doesn't work. I personally rush enemy casters with one or two special characters. Why shouldn't the enemy do the same? Especially if they are twice in numbers?

A very easy solution is to not build parties with one or two lame tanks who can't do anything but stand upright and rest glass cannons who could kill everything in seconds - if they wouldn't fall on their faces all the time after being looked at.

Edited by Boeroer
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i actually did not enjoy the white march content as much as the main game, still fun. I haven't finished it. I enjoy a hard encounter here and there but not whole areas basically becoming a dungeon crawl. I also didnt think the story had many choices in it. It feels like no matter what you do you help stalwart which is weird to me. Why does every choice end up helping them. So you talk or kill the ogres, talk or kill the Iron Flail, clear the mine, start the white forge, all helps the stalwart.  the side content was interesting. I still enjoyed it just not as much as the main game and part of that was that there were to many encounters. Its fine that they are hard just dont have one ever two feet and its not that i couldnt beat the encounters i just didnt want to after a while.

Edited by jnb0364

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I like it that the "one tank to glue them all" approach doesn't work. I personally rush enemy casters with one or two special characters. Why shouldn't the enemy do the same? Especially if they are twice in numbers?

A very easy solution is to not build parties with one or two lame tanks who can't do anything but stand upright and rest glass cannons who could kill everything in seconds - if they wouldn't fall on their faces all the time after being looked at.

 

I have 3 melee characters, Main, Edér, Maneha (used to be Pallegina, will pick her up again) 4 melee if you count Itumaak, then I have 3 ranged Sagani, Aloth, Durance.

 

Normal tactics is to catch their front with my 3 melees, while Durance buffs/debuffs. Aloth cast some CC and AoE. Sagani and Itumaak focus on ranged/casters.

And I don't mind enemies using tactics and I would love to see some good tactics that isn't just rush everyone because of HP pool and numbers.

 

If on any difficulty below PotD I need to have meta knowledge about who to bring for every map then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

If I need to rest between every two encounters because I have used all my spell slots then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

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I don't know what OP is talking about. WM content, in every aspect, is better than base game. Including encounters imo. Some are hard but not unmanagable.

Maybe you can come back later when you gained a level or two?

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You're not very good at this, are you?

 

You could have provide a suggestion on how he could play better other than resort to said sarcasm right? But i agree with you .. i hate that "tank and spam" it makes game boring.

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Have to agree with Sed, White March was an improvement from just about all facets of the game. Combat could be tough though, particularly if the party is under leveled.

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

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You're not very good at this, are you?

 

You could have provide a suggestion on how he could play better other than resort to said sarcasm right? But i agree with you .. i hate that "tank and spam" it makes game boring.

 

I did! See below my initial post where I made a suggestion how to overcome those problems.

 

My sarcasm was triggered by the angry ranting I have to admint. ;) It sounded a bit like "I deserve better than this!". ;) No offense though. Most likely this was only my impression. Also depends in which mood the reader is, too. I think I was very tired...

 

I believe his problems came from Lagufaeths mostly which indeed can be a pain in the back. But it's also rewarding if you can beat them without too much fuzz. You just have to adapt.

Edited by Boeroer
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If on any difficulty below PotD I need to have meta knowledge about who to bring for every map then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

If I need to rest between every two encounters because I have used all my spell slots then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

But you don't. I mean there's a reason for quicksave and quickload. If you get crushed by enemies then nothing stops you from reloading and trying a different approach. And on normal and hard WM is not more difficult than the main game. You have to have the appropriate level though. Maybe yours was too low. Ever tried to beat Raedric or the Skaen temple in Dyrford with a underleveled party? Even worse than WM I'd say. Same with Caed Nua when you first enter it with a party which level is too low.

 

One or two levels may totally change your perception of the WM encounters. Who knows?

Edited by Boeroer

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Ever tried to beat Raedric or the Skaen temple in Dyrford with a underleveled party? Even worse than WM I'd say. Same with Caed Nua when you first enter it with a party which level is too low.

 

One or two levels may totally change your perception of the WM encounters. Who knows?

 

This seems like very sound advice (unsurprising given your awesome builds btw!  ;))

 

I have tried both those things and it was SO HORRIFYING good god. First time I went to do Raedric, I don't remember my level, but like, he literally killed my entire party in the first ten seconds of battle. And I wasn't bad at the game, I was just not, as a certain person from WoW might say, "prepared". I still have like Vietnam-esque flashbacks to the Skaen temple too, good god. It was a bloodbath.

 

Yet the same thing a level or two later? Pfffft. With Raedric I'd eventually managed to do it at low levels by lying to him and "leaving", then hiding in room near the throne room and "pulling" him and his guards MMO-style to the door way (using every speed boost I could come up with), and fighting them in the doorway (I also blew more or less every consumable I had). Yet on my next playthrough I was two levels higher, and actually less-geared and optimized, and he attacked me at his throne and it was a bloodbath in the opposite direction. I'd been fully prepared for elaborate running away strategies and so on, but they were not needed!

 

I also agree: non-mobile tanks being too easy to rely on outside WM. The WM encounters can be a bit cheesy but if you re-jig your party and strategy, and are the right level, they're not that horrific.

Edited by Eurhetemec

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Right. But to be fair: Lagufaeth in high numbers with Broodmothers will always be tricky. Damned Cleansing Flame. Especially if you have no priest.

 

There's a nice trick though and its name is Aila Braccia. ;)


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We have a saying in our tabletop games: "the wizard dies first."

 

Essentially meaning that good tactics require prioritising on the enemy that do most damage and can be killed fastest. In a world where Magic Is A Thing, everybody knows that you hit the caster as a priority.

 

So it's good that the monsters in PoE (and preumably PoE2) would/will be going after our fragile party members.

 

(Though, granted, unintelligent creatures probably shouldn't, for flavour rather than game mechanics, but if that has to be sacrificed on the altar i don't mind too much.)

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If on any difficulty below PotD I need to have meta knowledge about who to bring for every map then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

If I need to rest between every two encounters because I have used all my spell slots then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

But you don't. I mean there's a reason for quicksave and quickload. If you get crushed by enemies then nothing stops you from reloading and trying a different approach. And on normal and hard WM is not more difficult than the main game. You have to have the appropriate level though. Maybe yours was too low. Ever tried to beat Raedric or the Skaen temple in Dyrford with a underleveled party? Even worse than WM I'd say. Same with Caed Nua when you first enter it with a party which level is too low.

 

One or two levels may totally change your perception of the WM encounters. Who knows?

 

 

I actually did and got my arse hands down the first time i play the game in readric's hold with a low level 3-character party :p. I then learnt with more party characters.. game became actually much easier.

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I just started White March however I am currently over leveled I believe so I am guessing that will make up for my bad gameplay. ;)  I am really much more into it because of the story and journey. 

 

I do love the game and am backing PoED at a level I have never, nor should I really ever do, backed at.   Cant wait to play it.

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I don't mind the difficulty in White March, but the encounters seem a little forced. And that bores the hell out of me, and if my party accidentally dies then I get too tilted to continue. Like, do you really need to put enemies behind every corner? I felt like wherever you move or whatever you do, you have to fight something for no good reason. Does the door to the matriarch ogre really need to be locked, so you have to go through a dozen other ogres to get there? Does Galvino really need to own a huge villa full of monsters, with him residing at the other end of the house? These and similar examples seem like they were sacrificing immersion and reasoning for gameplay.

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I dunno, I am torn as well about WM1/2.

All it did was to put different spells on Aloth so he could just buff up during the fight and actually become the main tank while all my "fake" tanks dished out damage through disengagement. One of the best tactics for the grieving mother was to put on speed boots, get aggro, run in a circle while durance buffed her to infinity and each lap she led the enemy past my "tanks" that just slapped everything prone thru disengagement. Sagani/my main just spanked the ranged ones in the mean time. Worked almost every fight and looked incredibly silly. On the other hand in the vanilla game I had the typical Tankfront, buffers middle, DPS ranged in the back with an occasional flank to get my cipher death destruction beams in......

I honestly don't know what they could do to make fights more interesting, imo they were the weakest part of the game.

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.... Does the door to the matriarch ogre really need to be locked, so you have to go through a dozen other ogres to get there?.....

 

  You don't need to kill any of the Ogres in the cave. Still, I understand the point you are making.

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I like it that the "one tank to glue them all" approach doesn't work. I personally rush enemy casters with one or two special characters. Why shouldn't the enemy do the same? Especially if they are twice in numbers?

A very easy solution is to not build parties with one or two lame tanks who can't do anything but stand upright and rest glass cannons who could kill everything in seconds - if they wouldn't fall on their faces all the time after being looked at.

 

I have 3 melee characters, Main, Edér, Maneha (used to be Pallegina, will pick her up again) 4 melee if you count Itumaak, then I have 3 ranged Sagani, Aloth, Durance.

 

Normal tactics is to catch their front with my 3 melees, while Durance buffs/debuffs. Aloth cast some CC and AoE. Sagani and Itumaak focus on ranged/casters.

And I don't mind enemies using tactics and I would love to see some good tactics that isn't just rush everyone because of HP pool and numbers.

 

If on any difficulty below PotD I need to have meta knowledge about who to bring for every map then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

If I need to rest between every two encounters because I have used all my spell slots then no, I don't think the game is well balanced.

 

 

It seems that your problem is being underleveled. I did most of the WM without problem (except for certain dragon that I needed to kill later) with only 2 and 1/2 melee "tanks" (Eder, Pallegina and Itumak) If the first fight you get in a new zone is too strong just level a little in other place and then come back. As people said 1 or 2 levels in this game make a huge difference. (+ the items you got when leveling)

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Doesn't help that they just ignore engagement. 

 

Yeah I feel like a lot of times enemies are ignoring my engagement. Not sure if I am doing something wrong or there is a bug...or maybe I am missing something? I know you can't engage with ranged weapons, I am talking about enemies ignoring my melee front liners.

 

Anyway that said I only played a small portion of white march and it happened to be on Path of the damn difficulty. I ended up restarting the game because it was too frustrating for me but I still think it was doable. I just didn't want to have to wipe like 10 times every time to be successful. Then again path of the damn was meant to be like that. The lower levels have less enemies and I think are quite fair. On normal it is very easy as long as you don't completely ignore the type of defenses enemies have and focus down key enemy targets first like priests and wizards (or druids... which are usually the worst type of enemy I had to deal with so far in pillars.)

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Yeah I feel like a lot of times enemies are ignoring my engagement. Not sure if I am doing something wrong or there is a bug...or maybe I am missing something? I know you can't engage with ranged weapons, I am talking about enemies ignoring my melee front liners.

 

Enemies will ignore your engagement when (a) the character that is engaging them is not threatening enough and (b) there are more threatening and less protected characters to attack instead. Post patch 2.0 your tanks need to do something other than act as punching bags and your damage dealers need to be tougher than wet Papier-mâché.

 

Anyway that said I only played a small portion of white march and it happened to be on Path of the damn difficulty. I ended up restarting the game because it was too frustrating for me but I still think it was doable. I just didn't want to have to wipe like 10 times every time to be successful. Then again path of the damn was meant to be like that. The lower levels have less enemies and I think are quite fair. On normal it is very easy as long as you don't completely ignore the type of defenses enemies have and focus down key enemy targets first like priests and wizards (or druids... which are usually the worst type of enemy I had to deal with so far in pillars.)

 

 

Knowledge is our best weapon in PoE. In my first few play throughs I found Hard to be hard, now I find PotD to be fairly easy (apart from the early game) and thus deliberately do certain things earlier than the game expects you to (e.g. clearing Caed Nua or heading to the White March as early as possible).

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Yes - concerning engagement some enemies are pretty "smart". Especially Lagufaeth and other fast moving enemies which come in great numbers will rush your casters if those have low defenses and DR. Because those casters are the real danger. If the disengagement attacks of your front line are too weak the enemy will just eat that weak disengagement attack and then leave to remove the bigger threat. I think that's a good approach - I do it myself all the time, so how could I complain? 

 

A backline wizard with thicker armor and a shield will not be much less effective. A but slower perhaps - but on the upside enemies won't rush him that often anymore. Nit only will he be sturdier if he gets attacked - the higher defenses and dr alone will cause less rushing. Also works with priests and so on. Once you give your backline some deflection and DR most enemies will stop at the first enemy they reach - usually the tank or front line.

 

I personally don't use pure tanks anymore because of that. I found it much easier to create sturdy frontliners which can also dish out great damage. Wizard or druid "tanks" work very well if they are not alone, same as barb tanks. Of course pure paladin and fighter tanks can still be useful - not against swarming enemies, but they are great to keep dragons and other bosses busy while the rest of the party deals damage. 

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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