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From the Twitch Q&A: enchanting and ceiling

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Cheers! :)

 

 

Limitations on enchanting also already exist in the game - you cannot give weapons speed, rending, wounding, etc. I don't see very much discontent with this and I assume it is because the benefits of the enchantments tend to be less opaque than +damage +accuracy.

 

It's totally ok that some things can't be enchanted by yourself. I'm also ok with the plan to restrict the lash enchantments and make the whole echantment system feel less generic. I just think quality enchantments are an easy way to ensure that one or two early game weapons can stay viable (not top notch) throughout the game without fuzz. And it's already in the game - so no need to develop complicate new stuff that is prone to bugs. You can make your item viable without making it better than the fancy stuff.

See, it can be fun to take a torch an enchant it to legendary - or to take the Dissapointer and make it a legendary pistol. There's even a long thread in the PoE forum about it. I think nobody said "boo" but a lot of people said "sweet". It can be fun without harming the game nor other players.

 

Sure, if OBS finds a way so that any weapon (like one or two, restricted by resources) can be enchanted with an individual set of things that perfectly matches the lore and spirit of said weapon and thus makes it somewhat viable for the late game (if you spend expensive and rare components) without quality enchantments than it's also cool with me. But I guess people will still cry if they see that other players took a bland item and turned it into something shiny while they thought their Grey Sleeper was "Teh Best!11!".

 

I just want to be able to choose one or two weapons and armors I like (for whatever reason) and make them viable options for the endgame. Some really nice build ideas only work because of a special item with a special enchantment. If said item is of low level and you can't use it in the late game then that build idea is dead.

 

Style reasons are another issue - doesn't matter if they are plausible in game or not. This is even more true for armors than weapons. I put a fine plate on my Drake's Ambassador because it was the armor that looked best in my opinion. Then I enchanted it to superb at some point. Where was the harm in that?

As long as some players like to pick their stuff based on appearence and are happy it's not good to take that away from them - without good cause. 

Complaints like "I think it's stupid that the dagger of the dude in that other playthrough on youtube in that other country on that other computer is almost as cool as my Grey Sleeper because - hold your breath - he used a Skye Dragon Eye to enchant it. How presumtuous! Remove enchantments!" are no good cause for me. :)

 

Things like "it felt bad that the Blade of the Endless Paths was nothing special" I can agree with. But I think there are other ways to ensure that both sides can be happy.

 

If they do as planned you will be having trouble to play three melee guys with great swords or four ranged guys with bows. A the moment you could make a pike frontline and it would be viable. Not supergood, but it would work. If you enjoy stuff like that, why not? If quality is restricted to tier+1 you will have to skill your characters in line with the good gear you will find (in the future... :blink: ). Most likely you will have to retrain when you find a great pollaxe although you never wanted to wield a pollaxe. I hated BG for that sometimes: you had a nice party with a nice set of weapon focuses and then you found that awesome flail and nobody could use it properly. The end of the story is that you compose a party for your second playthrough that can wield all the good mid- to endgame gear you found in your first playthrough. Isn't that a bad thing? It doesn't encourage you to play more often. 

Edited by Boeroer
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Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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I feel like the metagaming issue could be one of the unintended consequences to this change. Player will have to metagame late game gear to not build their characters wrong like you mentioned Boeroer. This would indeed be bad design as Josh himself has mentioned multiple times.

Edited by jnb0364

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I don't know, I still think it's too early to be pointing out flaws in the systems implementation when we know so little about it right now. We're like the blind men feeling the elephant.

 

The old system had problems that the devs are trying to fix, the new system might have problems depending upon the specifics of how it's implemented.


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Not being able to pick a weapon I like aesthetically and keep it for the whole game is definitely an issue and we know for sure it's gonna be there with the enchantment ceiling :p

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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@Boeror do you think dumping the quality enchants altogether would be a reasonable solution? Instead of endgame weapons having flat bonuses to damage and accuracy they might have a few extra effects instead.

 

Also isn't it their current plan to progressively add weapon specializations (now tradeoff modals instead of straight bonuses) as you level? That system seems built to address the BG problem of punishing you for not having already played the game.

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What we know right now are the flaws in the old system, and at least one piece of information about the new system, namely the restriction on quality enchantments. I can't see how that change will fix any of the flaws of the old system.

 

Of course it might be that there are lots of other changes that we don't know about yet, and that the combination of those changes will indeed fix all flaws with the old system. If so, any developer who happens across this discussion will simply think "ah well, when they see the full system they won't worry" and that's fine. But on the off chance that this is something they haven't realised/thought of (and don't discount that possibility) then it's no bad thing that they're reminded of it.

 

If nothing else, perhaps this thread will prompt a developer diary talking about enchanting in more detail, which would be cool.

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Not being able to pick a weapon I like aesthetically and keep it for the whole game is definitely an issue and we know for sure it's gonna be there with the enchantment ceiling :p

 

No, you'll be able to do that. It just won't be mechanically effective. :p


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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ROFL :lol:

 

I don't want to lose Andrea, so we have to do something!

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Illathid - your crimes against fashion are noted and won't go unpunished :p

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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A bit more about enchanting from josh:
 

 

Quick question about enchanting in Deadfire as I am confused over what some of the changes are. Is there going to be a set number of weapons to be found with dragon slaying, for example, as an enchantment already applied, or would an enchantment like dragon slaying or flaming be able to be applied to any weapon the player wishes to?


The former.  You may find a weapon that has Bane against Dragons.  That could then be enchanted into Dragon Slaying or Bane against Beasts (more broad), but you can’t just put those enchantments on any weapon.  Enchantment exists to improve the core aspects of the weapon or armor that are already present.

This also applies to more basic attributes like Finely Accurate, Fine, and Finely Damaging.  You can upgrade Finely Accurate to Exceptionally Accurate, Fine to Exceptional, and Finely Damaging to Exceptionally Damaging, but not Finely Accurate into Exceptional or Fine into Exceptionally Damaging.  If something has an inherent focus on being more accurate than damaging, enchantment will improve that, but not fundamentally change it.

 

http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/157872978111/quick-question-about-enchanting-in-deadfire-as-i

Edited by illathid

"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Personally I would like to see more randomization of the special enchants on the unique and powerful items. I think this would reduce the tendency to metagame a character around a single late game item in repeat playthroughs. I.e. If you didn't know whether the 'Axe of Awsomeness' that drops at a certain level 16 location will have legendary accuracy, stunning, extra corrode damage, or spell stealing you couldn't really plan a whole build around it. Maybe the axe is always in that pirate chest on every playthrough... but you still don't know exactly what it will be enchanted with.

 

If I recall there was some such randomization in Pillars and White March, I think? Tidefall I thought was slightly different on playthroughs... speed vs wounding and such.

 

I suspect valid arguments against enchant randomization exist too ;) maybe some people want to metagame... perhaps that could be addressed by making sure that all the different major types of awesome enchants are represented on late game weapons... you just didn't know which weapon would get which enchant. So, in the example above... if the Axe of Awsomeness didn't get legendary accuracy (it got something else), the loot tables would ensure that legendary acccuracy was placed on one of the other late game one handed melee weapons. Could be implemented by simply making tables of late-game powerful weapons and enchants (by type... one handed, two handed, ranged, etc) and then shifting the enchant column up or down randomly. All the types of enchants would be represented on an appropriate weapon for your metagame character build in game... you just wouldn't know where they would appear.

Edited by amazeing4art

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Well you'd be putting Boeroer out of a job for one ;)

 

But more generally, a lot of people (myself included) enjoy the process of designing builds for Pillars, so not being able to do so would be a loss for them. Beyond that, I feel that doing so would reduce the ability to imbue items with personality: each item has its little description/story but the more aspects of the item are randomised the fewer you can reference in the description.

 

 

Interesting, though it doesn't really tell us much more about how limiting this will be to item choice.

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I like the fact that you can't just apply enchantments to any weapon—if any weapon you fine can be made flaming, finding a flaming weapon won't be special anymore. Improving upon existing properties sounds interesting.

 

I just wouldn't include quality enchantments in this because it can limit item choice and force you to change items you really like.

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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If I recall there was some such randomization in Pillars and White March, I think? Tidefall I thought was slightly different on playthroughs... speed vs wounding and such.

Nope. The only randomization comes from chests and stuff that contain random loot. But no unique weapons or armor involved.


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I like the fact that you can't just apply enchantments to any weapon—if any weapon you fine can be made flaming, finding a flaming weapon won't be special anymore. Improving upon existing properties sounds interesting.

 

I just wouldn't include quality enchantments in this because it can limit item choice and force you to change items you really like.

Exactly my thoughts.

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For upgrading lashes we'll have a choice. For Slayings we'll have a choice. For quality... we won't. Hmm, inconsistent.


Vancian =/= per rest.

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We will - but only +1 step. Maybe the lashes and other stuff like Dragon's Bane also can't be improved more than once.  


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I am still confused is Josh saying you can't have a flaming - fine sword? Is it going to be one or the other? Or is it going to be a flaming finely accurate sword - a corrode superb saber - a freezing finely damaging axe and then within those weapons the special and the quality can only go up one? I cant tell i wish they would explain this better. 

Edited by jnb0364

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I am still confused is Josh saying you can't have a flaming - fine sword? Is it going to be one or the other? Or is it going to be a flaming finely accurate sword - a corrode superb saber - a freezing finely damaging axe and then within those weapons the special and the quality can only go up one? I cant tell i wish they would explain this better. 

 

I think it's the latter, though obviously not with those specific combinations. Essentially I think he's saying each enchantment category will be able to be upgraded once, but I don't think he's saying weapons can only have a single enchantment category.

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I am still confused is Josh saying you can't have a flaming - fine sword? Is it going to be one or the other? Or is it going to be a flaming finely accurate sword - a corrode superb saber - a freezing finely damaging axe and then within those weapons the special and the quality can only go up one? I cant tell i wish they would explain this better. 

 

I think it's the latter, though obviously not with those specific combinations. Essentially I think he's saying each enchantment category will be able to be upgraded once, but I don't think he's saying weapons can only have a single enchantment category.

 

 

I actually think so too but this just gets back to the original issue being discussed about this change on this post. 

Edited by jnb0364

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We will - but only +1 step. Maybe the lashes and other stuff like Dragon's Bane also can't be improved more than once.

But we won't be able to choose how to upgrade quality. We can either upgrade or not.


Vancian =/= per rest.

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A question I asked along with its answer: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/157949245471/another-enchanting-question-the-limit-on

 

 

Another enchanting question: the limit on upgrading quality enchantments (fine, superb, etc.) has some of us worried that if there's an early game weapon we particularly like for whatever reason, we won't be able to carry on using it (or at least not without taking a power hit). Is there anything you can reveal to allay our fears? Perhaps a one off option to upgrade items further (a blessing of Berath perhaps), or a reduction in the disparity between quality tiers?

 

Well, being able to use a weapon from the beginning of the game to the end was a specific complaint that many Pillars players brought up.  For those players, their sense of discovery and excitement was ruined (in their words) by the enchantment system because once they found a weapon they liked, there was no reason to switch to anything else.

 

There are some other potential approaches we could take, e.g. only allowing a weapon to be enchanted a single time, but with no restriction on what power of enchantment goes on it.  That would force players to choose between extending the normal lifespan of a weapon for a few levels or putting it away for many levels until they can put a really strong enchantment on it in the late game.

 

Ultimately, though, if you’re looking for the ability to use any specific weapon from hour 3 or 4 through hour 30/40/50/60, I don’t think there’s a good solution that will make everyone happy.

 

My thoughts: I wouldn't say there's no hope for those of us who don't like this change, but I don't think there's much hope.

Edited by JerekKruger
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