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Druid

1) (No name) A Druid focused more on Spiritshifting.

 

Hope this means permanent spiritshift is a thing in POE2, preferably with the option for actual equipment (even if there's limitation like no metal armor kinda thing...and something similar to "amulet of mighty fists" so the paw attacks can be enchanted) since it was cool early game but quickly died off as a option. 

 

@Faerunner: If it helps there's an updated mod for POE1 that allows permanent spiritshifting, you can even see my Bear/Nature party (Tree Chanter, Bear Druid, 4x Ranger w/ Bear) in ones of the pics http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/138/? (not my mod, just a submitted pic)

Edited by Failedlegend

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I am trying to remember the source, but I could have sworn I read the Priest class kits were the god choices (Priest of Eothas, Priest of Magran, etc).

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Hope this means permanent spiritshift is a thing in POE2, preferably with the option for actual equipment (even if there's limitation like no metal armor kinda thing...and something similar to "amulet of mighty fists" so the paw attacks can be enchanted) since it was cool early game but quickly died off as a option. 

 

I've said it before, but I'll say it again: I would absolutely love a Druid subclass that turns spiritshift into a modal ability (rather than a limited duration one) but disabled (or at least limited) spellcasting whilst spiritshifted. I don't actually think allowing gear is necessary, since spiritshift Druids are already very good without it (highest single target damage in PoE), but I wouldn't mind a few items which are specifically designed to carry on providing buffs once spiritshifted (the Wildstrike Belt already does, how about some necklaces or rings as well).

 

Also, depending on how it works, a spiritshift focused Druid multiclassed with a Monk might be amazing if the Monk's unarmed bonus gets applied to the spiritshifted form's natural weapons.

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I am trying to remember the source, but I could have sworn I read the Priest class kits were the god choices (Priest of Eothas, Priest of Magran, etc).

 

I believe I read this too, as well as Paladin subclasses being the Order choice. If this is the case I hope we'll see them get a little more than they currently get and perhaps also see a few more Gods/Orders added in.

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The drug monk and the Black Jacket are focused around a game mechanic that many people don't use or under-utilize. Making the mechanic more powerful but limiting it to a subclass probably makes it easier to balance and might encourage people to use the mechanic more generally once they get in the habit.

 

Also, the focus on a class of items lets a few changes to their usefulness nudge us towards a huge amount of variety. The need for more, and specific, types of external items and micromanagement then becomes part of the subclass's drawback relative to the base class.

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Yes - I can imagine that it can result in fun to be motivated to use things like drugs. Or to be motivated to wear and enchant different kinds of weapons so that you will always have the optimal damage type.

 

When I once did that rogue build which was mainly focused on scroll use it forced me to use scrolls way more than I was used to - and it was fun. Another nice side effect was that my inventory wasn't so cluttered with scrolls. ;)

Edited by Boeroer

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If the only benefit the drug monk gets from drugs is a greater consumable duration, then I don't see it incentivising consumable use that much since, you know, you can just take more when the first lot wears off. If the buffs from consumables were increased that would be a different matter, and perhaps that'll be a choice further into the subclass, but duration alone doesn't seem worth the trade off.

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The actual quote from fig is the following:

 

 

The Nalpazca gain greater benefits from using drugs, but their Wound threshold is increased while under the influence.

 

If that means duration or effect I can't say.

 

I can say, however, that I'm very dissappointed in this subclass. I'll never play a character that does drugs from a roleplaying point of view, and since I want to play more diverse monks, this is a definite loss of options for me. I don't mind controversial themes on companions, but having specializations with controversial themes is a really limiting option.

The other subclasses so far also represent popular fantasy archetypes, which is not exactly the case for potheads. And on a mechanical level, its also boring - following joshs description, if you never use drugs in the first place, nothing changes to playing that character, whereas every other subclass implies a necessary change of gameplay.

 

The lore of monks has been changed massively from the DnD version, so I'd much prefer a subclass that lets me get back closer to the original martial artist.

1) Just turning the fist bonus into something for weapons would grant an easy DnD2 Kensai.

2) A subclass that increases deflection when no armor is equipped and lets you get wounds by evasion rather than being hit would be mechanically cool.

3) There are also a dozen of interesting archetypes for monks in pathfinder alone (Zen Archer, Sensei, Four Winds and Ki Mystic alone come to mind)

 

I don't mind drugs being in the game, and I wouldn't mind having some kind of optional talent that makes their use more efficient. But why do we need to waste one of the few available subclass slots for something which is (imho) not really a popular archetype, with powers that won't necessarily change the way you play, and is tied to a controversial theme?

Edited by Doppelschwert

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Because it was featured in WM with Zahuas background and it is part of the PoE lore now I assume. First I thought about it like you. But now I changed my mind and find it interesting.

 

I would also like to see other possible subclasses which were mentioned in PoE lore like the Fellows of St. Waidwen Martyr order and stuff like that.

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The actual quote from fig is the following:

 

 

The Nalpazca gain greater benefits from using drugs, but their Wound threshold is increased while under the influence.

 

If that means duration or effect I can't say.

 

I can say, however, that I'm very dissappointed in this subclass. I'll never play a character that does drugs from a roleplaying point of view, and since I want to play more diverse monks, this is a definite loss of options for me. I don't mind controversial themes on companions, but having specializations with controversial themes is a really limiting option.

The other subclasses so far also represent popular fantasy archetypes, which is not exactly the case for potheads. And on a mechanical level, its also boring - following joshs description, if you never use drugs in the first place, nothing changes to playing that character, whereas every other subclass implies a necessary change of gameplay.

 

The lore of monks has been changed massively from the DnD version, so I'd much prefer a subclass that lets me get back closer to the original martial artist.

1) Just turning the fist bonus into something for weapons would grant an easy DnD2 Kensai.

2) A subclass that increases deflection when no armor is equipped and lets you get wounds by evasion rather than being hit would be mechanically cool.

3) There are also a dozen of interesting archetypes for monks in pathfinder alone (Zen Archer, Sensei, Four Winds and Ki Mystic alone come to mind)

 

I don't mind drugs being in the game, and I wouldn't mind having some kind of optional talent that makes their use more efficient. But why do we need to waste one of the few available subclass slots for something which is (imho) not really a popular archetype, with powers that won't necessarily change the way you play, and is tied to a controversial theme?

 

1. Coffee is a drug. Alcohol is a drug. Drugs aren't just pot and heroin. The vast majority of people use drugs of one type or another.

2. One of PoE's strengths is its unique lore. They're not just the stereotypical D&D rip-offs. Monk is a relatively non "popular" and non "archetypal" character in this genre to begin with. 

3. Wounding oneself---self-harm---is also a very controversial theme. 

4. Monks still have plenty of customization options. 

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The actual quote from fig is the following:

 

 

The Nalpazca gain greater benefits from using drugs, but their Wound threshold is increased while under the influence.

 

If that means duration or effect I can't say.

 

I can say, however, that I'm very dissappointed in this subclass. I'll never play a character that does drugs from a roleplaying point of view, and since I want to play more diverse monks, this is a definite loss of options for me. I don't mind controversial themes on companions, but having specializations with controversial themes is a really limiting option.

The other subclasses so far also represent popular fantasy archetypes, which is not exactly the case for potheads. And on a mechanical level, its also boring - following joshs description, if you never use drugs in the first place, nothing changes to playing that character, whereas every other subclass implies a necessary change of gameplay.

 

The lore of monks has been changed massively from the DnD version, so I'd much prefer a subclass that lets me get back closer to the original martial artist.

1) Just turning the fist bonus into something for weapons would grant an easy DnD2 Kensai.

2) A subclass that increases deflection when no armor is equipped and lets you get wounds by evasion rather than being hit would be mechanically cool.

3) There are also a dozen of interesting archetypes for monks in pathfinder alone (Zen Archer, Sensei, Four Winds and Ki Mystic alone come to mind)

 

I don't mind drugs being in the game, and I wouldn't mind having some kind of optional talent that makes their use more efficient. But why do we need to waste one of the few available subclass slots for something which is (imho) not really a popular archetype, with powers that won't necessarily change the way you play, and is tied to a controversial theme?

 

As someone who was annoyed that I had to take drugs to do Zahua's quest in WM2, I'm ok with this subclass existing since I'm not force to take it.  Although I do hope some classes get more than 2 subclasses besides Priests and Paladins.

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1. Coffee is a drug. Alcohol is a drug. Drugs aren't just pot and heroin. The vast majority of people use drugs of one type or another.

2. One of PoE's strengths is its unique lore. They're not just the stereotypical D&D rip-offs. Monk is a relatively non "popular" and non "archetypal" character in this genre to begin with. 

3. Wounding oneself---self-harm---is also a very controversial theme. 

4. Monks still have plenty of customization options.

 

1. These are the drugs in PoE. Do you see Coffee, Alcohol or anything else which is legal in the western world?

2. I can't reply to this since spoilers are not allowed, but this subclass is very incosistent with regards to the lore.

Apart from that, almost no class is changed from DnD:

Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger, Barbarian and Druid are almost the same in terms of mechanics and flavor.

Ciphers seem to be close to psionic classes, but I don't know much about those.

Monks, Paladins and chanters are the major changes to the original classes, where after much complaining, paladins got a lot of their original signatures patched. I'm not against having new interesting lore and options, but if someone wanted to play a traditional martial artist or a bard, they should be able to, and it's justified if they are upset because they can't.

Also, playing a martial artist may not be super popular, but its still more popular than being the stoner guy. I know a few people that like to play monks in RPGs. I don't know anyone who always wanted to play some wasted guy being high.

 

3. That's true, and I can't say I prefer it to the DnD version. However, this is easier to ignore, since I can just pretend my character gets enraged when being hit, fueling his battle prowess this way.

 

4. One of the main draws for me of playing a monk is evading hits instead of taking them. I could play a kensai or a martial artist this way. This is not available as customization for a monk, and this is dissapointing - in fact, the wound system makes very compelling arguments to wear armor later in the game, the polar opposite.

 

Everyone else gets to have their nostalgia, so I don't see why I shouldn't have my cake and eat it too. In particular if its in favor of being better at doing drugs, which would be probably better if it was available to everyone. If you wanted to play a barbarian that gets his rages through taking drugs, you'd also benefit from a talent that let you specialize in doing them.

Edited by Doppelschwert

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Well something to keep in mind with some of these post is that the base class will be just as good as the sub classes. So for each class (except priest and paladins) there will be three classes to choose from. So for example i dont like the new ranger subclass ghost knight but who cares i can role a regular ranger (pending the other unmentioned sub class) and it should be just as powerful. At least that is the goal. It is hard to look past the new shinny objects sometimes but the old standbys are supposed to be just as good.

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1. Coffee is a drug. Alcohol is a drug. Drugs aren't just pot and heroin. The vast majority of people use drugs of one type or another.

2. One of PoE's strengths is its unique lore. They're not just the stereotypical D&D rip-offs. Monk is a relatively non "popular" and non "archetypal" character in this genre to begin with. 

3. Wounding oneself---self-harm---is also a very controversial theme. 

4. Monks still have plenty of customization options.

 

1. These are the drugs in PoE. Do you see Coffee, Alcohol or anything else which is legal in the western world?

 

 

 

Look at the drugs' effects---they're all either stimulants or aids to clear-headedness (resistance to fear, confusion). Pretty much the opposite of the stereotypical negative effects of getting "stoned" on pot. (There is one which aids perceptiveness which you could argue is slightly like pot, I'd suppose.) Blacsonn looks similar to alcohol. Coffee, tea, tobacco all come from plants, and yes, other plants with similar properties are legal in "the western world".

 

I don't use "pot" myself (it gives me anxiety and makes me very drowsy), but most of the neuroscientists and biochemists I knew from the Ivy League universities I went to for undergrad and graduate school actually did use illegal drugs, including pot. And pot has become either legal or decriminalized in many places in the Western world, as it rationally should be. 

Edited by SaruNi

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The actual quote from fig is the following:

 

The Nalpazca gain greater benefits from using drugs, but their Wound threshold is increased while under the influence.

If that means duration or effect I can't say.

 

I can say, however, that I'm very dissappointed in this subclass. I'll never play a character that does drugs from a roleplaying point of view, and since I want to play more diverse monks, this is a definite loss of options for me. I don't mind controversial themes on companions, but having specializations with controversial themes is a really limiting option.

The other subclasses so far also represent popular fantasy archetypes, which is not exactly the case for potheads. And on a mechanical level, its also boring - following joshs description, if you never use drugs in the first place, nothing changes to playing that character, whereas every other subclass implies a necessary change of gameplay.

 

The lore of monks has been changed massively from the DnD version, so I'd much prefer a subclass that lets me get back closer to the original martial artist.

1) Just turning the fist bonus into something for weapons would grant an easy DnD2 Kensai.

2) A subclass that increases deflection when no armor is equipped and lets you get wounds by evasion rather than being hit would be mechanically cool.

3) There are also a dozen of interesting archetypes for monks in pathfinder alone (Zen Archer, Sensei, Four Winds and Ki Mystic alone come to mind)

 

I don't mind drugs being in the game, and I wouldn't mind having some kind of optional talent that makes their use more efficient. But why do we need to waste one of the few available subclass slots for something which is (imho) not really a popular archetype, with powers that won't necessarily change the way you play, and is tied to a controversial theme?

You mean controversial as in stealing bribing lying threathen assaulting breaking and entering and last but not least... murdering?

 

The game is full of "controversy" ;)

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To be honest

A drug using warrior can be amazing.

 

Geralt of Rivia (The Witcher) uses drugs all the time.

 

Bane. One of the worst enemies of Batman. Uses drugs.

 

Elric. The albino emperor of Melnibone needs his drugs to be able to fight or else is too weak.

 

Or if you like it asian...

The Drunken Master is an archetype of monk that fights better because of drugs.

 

I could go on. Just to show it isnt far fetched and out of nowhere.

Its well established.

 

Also: this monk is more based on a flaggelant who would whip themselves into a high/frenzy. So be glad he isnt wearing leather and a whip hahaha

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To be honest

A drug using warrior can be amazing.

Geralt of Rivia (The Witcher) uses drugs all the time.

Bane. One of the worst enemies of Batman. Uses drugs.

Elric. The albino emperor of Melnibone needs his drugs to be able to fight or else is too weak.

Or if you like it asian...

The Drunken Master is an archetype of monk that fights better because of drugs.

I could go on. Just to show it isnt far fetched and out of nowhere.

Its well established.

Also: this monk is more based on a flaggelant who would whip themselves into a high/frenzy. So be glad he isnt wearing leather and a whip hahaha

Oh, oh, I do so hope the second sub-class for the monk is a gimp.

 

Enchanted ball-gags and cat suits for all!

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There are also real-life examples of present-day martial arts masters who attribute some of their abilities to smoking a lot of pot: Joe Rogan (United States Tae Kwon Do national champion, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt, widely recognized as one of the best mixed martial arts commentators and the best of the UFC), renowned jiu-jitsu master Eddie Bravo, and high-ranked mixed martial arts fighters Nick and Nate Diaz.

 

Also consider all the great martial artists who have tested positive for Performance-Enhancing Drugs in the last few years:

 

Anderson Silva

Lyoto Machida 

Jon Jones

Vitor Belfort

Royce Gracie

 

If PEDs weren't currently banned, almost all serious high-level martial arts fighters would take them.

 

In Eastern monastic traditions, use of intoxicants is discouraged, but use of stimulants (mostly green tea) is encouraged. The goal is to become more awake and more  perceptive. There was just a huge meth bust at a Buddhist monastery in Myanmar (Burmese Buddhism has been tremendously influential, and Myanmar has a fantastic martial art called Lethwei that is like Muay Thai but with headbutts and they compete in it as a full-contact sport):

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/06/buddhist-monk-held-meth-pills-found-in-monastery-myanmar

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethwei

 

As for drug use in canonical fantasy and the mythology/religious practice that it's based on:

 

Tolkien - Pipeweed, lembas

Robert E. Howard - Black lotus (origin of the MG:T card?)

George R. R. Martin - Milk of the poppy, shade of the evening, sourleaf

Steven Erikson - D'bayang, Durhang, Kaff, Khall leaf, Neth berries, Uthurl

Michael Moor**** - drugs used by main/title character Elric (one of my childhood favorites)

Dune (scifi as well as fantasy, but I'd count it) - the Spice
Robin Hobb - drugs used by main character Prince Regal in The Farseer Trilogy 
Patrick Rothfuss - Sweateaters, denner resin
Brian Saunderson - Firemoss
R. Scott Bakker (possibly the best fantasy writer now) - Chanv, qirri
Almost everybody - Alcohol
 
Norse mythology - skáldskapar mjaðar
Ancient Greco-Roman - Alcohol to achieve ecstatic trance in worship of Bacchus/Dionysus
Sanskrit - Soma
 
Also, Deadfire Archipelago is supposed to be more multicultural, and there are plenty of examples from around the world---Mayan warriors chewing coco leaves, shamanistic practitioners eating or smoking plants, etc.
 
But as a fan of the classic backstab stealth rogue archetype, I can empathize---PoE 1 really lacked a good Assassin class, and I missed it. So while the Assassin subclass isn't as unique or creative as the others I'm happy it will be in the game. Maybe they'll make one of the subclasses interesting/unusual and the other more like the stereotypical fantasy class, for classes where that's lacking, like a Chanter who's more like a Bard and a Monk who's more martial arts focused (... she prones her opponents by taking them down and breaking their arms... if they have arms).
Edited by SaruNi
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Really hope this rogue subclass is a duelist type build-- off tank w +deflection and damage (or attack speed when engaged with one enemy) bump, negative modifiers when engaged with more than one

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I don't know why suddenly everyone is arguing how great/realistic drugs are in this thread - I do not want to ban drugs from the game, I want you to be able to invest into drugs independently from a subclass.

 

There are a lot of great characters in fiction (the lists already posted, also Sherlock Holmes comes to mind) that are drug addicts or users, and there are also some very cool concepts to use them, as a barbarian whose rage is drug-induced. I don't want to play these characters, but that doesn't mean I want you to not be able to do that.

However, and that is the point everyone seems to miss - most of those characters are not monks. Which means it would make sense to make such a specialization an optional talent, instead of basically telling you - if you want to be really good with using drugs, take one level in the Nalpaczla Monk Subclass and forfeit any ideas of a different second class.

 

Apart from that, there is an important distinction between the words used to describe these terms. In my language, and that may be the issue here, drugs are almost exclusively used to refer to mind-altering substances, and that is also how they are depicted in PoE in context with Zahua. I wouldn't mind a herbalist using herbs for increased effect or an alchemist using some potions, but then again, why would you lock these things that interact with a general gameplay system (consumables) onto a single class, when you could have it available to everyone?

 

You lose options for character building in general and also access to a second monk subclass that interacts more with the actual monk abilities. The way josh described it, it just feels tacked on.

 

And again, how would it work with multiclassing? You take one single level in the nalpacza and drugs get much stronger, at the cost of generating wounds. Then you just don't use any wounds and enjoy your improved buffs for the rest of the game with literally no downside.

This should be a talent with a general trade-off and not class based.

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You take one single level in the nalpacza and drugs get much stronger, at the cost of generating wounds. Then you just don't use any wounds and enjoy your improved buffs for the rest of the game with literally no downside.

 

Given that abilities such as Sneak Attack and Carnage are going to scale in power with class level, I wouldn't expect a single level of Nalpacza monk to dramatically boost the power of any drugs/consumables you use.

 

That being said, I'm less than thrilled with the Nalpacza taking up one of only two subclass slots available for monks as well. It's not because it's controversial or even that I'd never consider using it, but rather that there's nothing particularly exciting about it and, like you said, it's the kind of ability that thematically works for a broad enough range of other characters (druids, priests, and ciphers seem to me like strong fits for this as well) that it should probably just be a talent.

 

On top of that, it stands out as the most specific and narrow of any of the subclasses I've seen thus far. Training in the ways of an Assassin or a Black Jacket, for example, seems like the sort of thing that could potentially be done anywhere, but the Nalpacza not only suggests association with a particular area in the world that may be far removed from where the Watcher and/or any NPCs hail from but also suggests ties to a culture that has been massacred and subjugated more or less to extinction. I'd argue that the fact that a Watcher from anywhere in the world can pick up the Nalpacza's tricks at all after, at most, sharing a bit of Zahua's stash during one comparatively brief quest seems to trivialize their culture and legacy immensely.

Edited by blotter
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On top of that, it stands out as the most specific and narrow of any of the subclasses I've seen thus far. Training in the ways of an Assassin or a Black Jacket, for example, seems like the sort of thing that could potentially be done anywhere, but the Nalpacza not only suggests association with a particular area in the world that may be far removed from where the Watcher and/or any NPCs hail from but also suggests ties to a culture that has been massacred and subjugated more or less to extinction. I'd argue that the fact that a Watcher from anywhere in the world can pick up the Nalpacza's tricks at all after, at most, sharing a bit of Zahua's stash during one comparatively brief quest seems to trivialize their culture and legacy immensely.

I still like the idea of the Nalpacza monk, but you have a point there.


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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

Edited by Eurhetemec

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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

 

Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses.  Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure.  That is why I haven't put more than I have.  

 

Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change.  YMMV, on that assumption.

Edited by Ganrich
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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)

1)

2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

 

Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses.  Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure.  That is why I haven't put more than I have.  

 

Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change.  YMMV, on that assumption.

 

 

Yeah I've since found the quote. As he said the diety/order will "effectively" be the subclass I tend to think it's more likely that they'll simply have more subclasses, just each one probably a bit less in-depth. I don't really see a reasonable way to put either the gods or the orders into two groups.

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