floredon Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 Multiclassing will be the most difficult thing to balance of the entire game... Shapeshifting druid + carnage/torment reach? Wizard + deathblows? Paladin + dragon trashed? Too many imba possibilities... It's a single player RPG. Class balancing should not be that important. oh but it is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlintlockJazz Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 As someone with no desire to multiclass my caster PC some prestige class system would be much appreciated Same, not really a fan of multi-classing particularly in PoE where the classes were already quite flexible anyway. Prestige classes or as someone else mentioned earlier kits would be great. Arch Mages oh my! 2 "That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail "Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganrich Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 As someone with no desire to multiclass my caster PC some prestige class system would be much appreciatedSame, not really a fan of multi-classing particularly in PoE where the classes were already quite flexible anyway. Prestige classes or as someone else mentioned earlier kits would be great. Arch Mages oh my! Some cool ideas can come from this though. A Barb/Chanter mixing Carnage and the concentration phrase would be an example. I agree the class system was really flexible with most classes. Some more than others though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I'm ambivalent toward the idea myself, but excited for the Boeroer threads. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jones092201 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) I think part of this debate should consider that some people aren't as interested in creating optimized builds, and more interested in having a base set of abilities that conform to the idea of the character they want to play as. Both styles are fine, but multiclassing efficiently takes a good bit of study (made easier by community threads and YouTube) Kits and prestige classes allow your character to function in a way the devs have tested and know worked. Plus, being an assassin instead of a rogue, or a duelist instead of a fighter, helps player immersion i think. I usually play on instinct round one, stumble through the game, and then build a significantly stronger character round two. Both play throughs are great fun. Edited January 27, 2017 by jones092201 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Looks like I'm rolling a F/M/T then. 2 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monara Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Seems such an odd choice to offer all these new character development options with multiclassing and then at the same time give us a tiny party size so we never get the chance to experiment with different characters anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Eh, you have space for a tank, off-tank, controller, healer, and whatever with five people. It's not as good as six people, but the fifth person provides space for experimentation. Monk/ fighter and monk/ druid would be on my list of easy multi-classes. More interesting might be Rangerdins. Sworn enemy and marked target could possibly make a nasty stack. Or ranger-mages. You would just need to take enough mage to get alacrity. Same with cipher-mages. Fighter/priests might damn near replace paladins. Chanter mages could probably use combusting wounds and dragon slashed nicely. And I can see a level of rogue being practically mandatory for weapon users. Rogue 1 / Wizard 5 / Cipher 10 could get nasty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silent Winter Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I don't mind the idea of multi-classing, and it can lead to some fun role-playing builds (Barbarian-Wizard? Rogue-Paladin?) - but please don't spend eternity ( ) balancing the game out. If there are one or two OP builds, that's fine. But don't nerf the cr*p out of the fun builds just because someone else *can* build it to be OP. _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ *Casts Nature's Terror* , *Casts Firebug* , *Casts Rot-Skulls* , *Casts Garden of Life* *Spirit-shifts to cat form* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerunner Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Ranger/Druid! Animal companion + Spirit-shifting! I call dibs! 2 "Not I, though. Not I," said the hanging dwarf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messier-31 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Nope, sorry Nope = A barbarian that doesn't care? Sorry = A humble monk? More like "I couldn't care less about Warrior/Ranger/Cleric/Mage/Squirrel/Carrot/Communist builds". IMHO they shoulda bring on the prestige class. 1 It would be of small avail to talk of magic in the air... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andraste Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Ranger/Druid! Animal companion + Spirit-shifting! I call dibs! This is my plan for my 'canon' Watcher. Always wanted her to have an animal companion, and she already uses a bow. If that combination isn't possible, I'll settle for a Druid with some chants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rheingold Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Not crazy about multi classing - it did quite a lot of damage to d&d. The kits or prestige classes are a good solution. I hope Obs put a lot of thought into this and don't wreck the game. At the moment the classes are actually in a good spot - I really hope that whatever changes they make, they don't mess it up. 1 "Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them.""So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?""You choose the wrong adjective.""You've already used up all the others.” Lord of Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marelooke Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 NWN2 seriously turned me off of multiclassing. Multiclass builds there were usually stupid powerful and they just made character creation (and evolution) complexity go through the roof. Not my idea of a good time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rheingold Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Yeah, sadly if they aren't careful I can already see the Fighter/Cipher 15/1 or Cipher/Barbarian 15/1 cheese dips coming... Nightmarish stuff 1 "Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them.""So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?""You choose the wrong adjective.""You've already used up all the others.” Lord of Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aotrs Commander Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) D&D 3.x's multiclassing system was one of its best aspects (though to be fair, the old AD&D system had some merits as well). For tabletop at the vey least, I had absolutely no compunction in "class" becoming and entirely metagame construct. Not that I ever really believed in the sanctity of a class being a flavour and not a mechanical choice ever anyway - one of my current 3.x characters is a straight Cleric/monk whose spells have been completely reflavoured into Naruto-style jutsu and who calls himself a ninja. Granted, you can't do the same with a CRPG, but even so. (I have no loyalty or nostalgia to AD&D and earlier as either set of rules mechanics or an expereince, since AD&D was not my first RPG (HeroQuest), my second (Rolemaster - until 3.0 my system of choice and still is a close second) or even my third (Warhmmaer Fanatasy Roleplay), but the distance forth.) I would hope that this would be following the former system, rather then rather pale attempt, say D&D 4E made. Wait, hang-on, didn't we actually get some multiclassing feats like 4E in PoE (it's been a while since I last played)? Or I am just going daft? Come to that, my enduring memory is pretty much playing a duel-class Fighter/Mage every time I've played BG2 or Torment (in the sense I went to about Fighter 8-9 for the hit points, then swtiched to mage). Edited January 27, 2017 by Aotrs Commander 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boeroer Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 As we already discussed in another thread: Gotta love my cipher-barb. Soul Whip + Heart of Fury = Whoooohaaa! Or my druid-monk-paladin: Wildstrike Burn + Greater Wildstrike Burn + Turning Wheel + Lightning Strikes + Flames of Devotion + Intense Flames + Scion of Flame. Such things need to get balanced or the whole game will be a joke even at "Supertricky Pothole Path of the Uberdamned". Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 I guess a limit could be put in: You have to take three consecutive levels at least when you pick a class or switch it. Just a suggestion. *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndiraLightfoot Posted January 27, 2017 Author Share Posted January 27, 2017 Oh, now we have a stretch goal with subclasses as well, I mean what is this? PoE2, a cornu copiae of CRPG dreams? Everything's just getting better by the day... Yay! *** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" *** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) The comments are a mine of interesting information: Feargus DEVELOPER@Superlovi - I totally understand your concern. What we've done is a couple of things - (1) We merged our universal game data editor into the engine (we didn't have time to do this on Eternity 1), that let's the designers balance things much more quickly, 2) we are starting with a system we already know, we aren't creating it and balancing it at the same time, and 3) We were incredibly lucky to have Dave Williams join the project - he's been a designer in both computer and board games, and was the creator of the Legend of the Five Rings card game. He's incredibly good with big complicated systems. Edited January 27, 2017 by anameforobsidian 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
floredon Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 The comments are a mine of interesting information: Feargus DEVELOPER @Superlovi - I totally understand your concern. What we've done is a couple of things - (1) We merged our universal game data editor into the engine (we didn't have time to do this on Eternity 1), that let's the designers balance things much more quickly, 2) we are starting with a system we already know, we aren't creating it and balancing it at the same time, and 3) We were incredibly lucky to have Dave Williams join the project - he's been a designer in both computer and board games, and was the creator of the Legend of the Five Rings card game. He's incredibly good with big complicated systems. Interesting that they hired someone with experience designing card games. POE digital CCG please (no, don't mention Pathfinder I know). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentep Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 Personally I think they should do strictly D&D style Dual Classing instead of multiclassing. I may be the only one though. 2 I cannot - yet I must. How do you calculate that? At what point on the graph do "must" and "cannot" meet? Yet I must - but I cannot! ~ Ro-Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr <3 Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 I asked the question. Really hope that they will manage to do it ( a proper balance ). My real ray of Hope is the beta testing with early access to the players: at least the most obvious and abusive combos should be ruled out before games is completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anameforobsidian Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) I'll be interested to see how subclasses work out with multiclasses. They could be a nice way to encourage single classing. Edited January 27, 2017 by anameforobsidian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yonjuro Posted January 27, 2017 Share Posted January 27, 2017 (edited) Nope, sorry Nope = A barbarian that doesn't care? Sorry = A humble monk? More like "I couldn't care less about Warrior/Ranger/Cleric/Mage/Squirrel/Carrot/Communist builds". IMHO they shoulda bring on the prestige class. Yes, or fighter/barbarian/paladin. Makes sense - because a barbarian is like a fighter who loses something due to lack of discipline but gains something due to ferocity and a paladin is like a fighter who loses some raw power but gains abilities due to more discipline so, yeah, no, it makes absolutely no sense at all. On the other hand, I guess flexibility is good, because players are free to play something that makes sense to them or to build the powergaming ubermunchkin of ubermunchkiness - whatever they like. (And, to be clear, I like me some ubermunchkiness every now and then). I think the reason for some of the crazy builds had to do with the power curve of the base classes. If, say, a fighter grows rapidly and then levels off after level 9, then taking levels in other classes for flexibility is a no-brainer. If a fighter continues to grow super-linearly, then taking a level in another class would be a genuine trade off (particularly in a system like D&D v. 3.x where the cost of gaining a level is exponential and based on the sum of all of the current levels). Edited January 27, 2017 by Yonjuro 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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