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Pleading for Rogue buff once more

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#41
Boeroer

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The only nerf I would do to druids would be to take away spellcasting while shifted and make Spiritshift a modal. That would be enough for me. They don't feel more power- or useful than the other classes except rogue. Mind that a spiritshifted druid "only" does single target damage and easily gets outperformed by a barb or chanter when it comes to overall DPS.

By the way: I played a solo barb in PotD and did every encounter and had not much problems. No kiting involved after some levels. You can't do that with a rogue. They start off weaker than a rogue though. But barbs can catch up and overtake quickly.

But since this is about rogues, let's talk about sensible rogue buffs. ;)
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#42
the streaker

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So then divide out the finishing blow low endurance bonus... 1700/2.5 = 680. 

 

As Boeroer says, if you do a 1700 finishing blow against an enemy with, say, 100 endurance remaining, you've actually only really don't 100 damage. At that point you needn't even bother dividing by 2.5, as you could have done that 100 damage without finishing blow anyway. 

 

... impossible to be sure unless you build a druid to see how high he can go, but let me tell you ahead of time that this exercise has already been done tons of times over the years and rogue comes out on top.

 

 

This has been tested. People aren't just talking hypothetically here, there was an entire thread where someone claimed that a spiritshift druid was (when build correctly) amazing at single target damage. Other people (including Boeroer at the time iirc) were sceptical, but after testing it turned out that no, the spiritshift druid really was ridiculously good at single target damage.

 

re: "lucky crit", check a properly built rogue's accuracy and crit rate. You're less likely to get a graze than a crit.

 

 

Lucky crit doesn't refer to the idea that crits are uncommon, it refers to getting a crit, that is also a high damage roll, and which benefits from any other non-guaranteed damage bonuses a class might have access to.

 

 

Your first part is a bit misleading. A lot of enemies have more than 100 endurance, and usually it takes more than 1 hit to kill them. The rogue doesn't one-hit kill everything, which means the damage is not lost, like you suggest. Only when you reach the point where a class can one-hit a lot of powerful enemies does it mean any further damage is meaningless.

 

I'd love a link to the spiritshift druid calc you mention.

 

Regarding the last part, the variation in weapon damage is not that much, surely you know this? Taking the Estoc as an example, average damage roll is only 15% lower than the max damage. It's not like you'll roll one attack and hit for 500, and then roll another and hit for 200. More like you'll roll 500 on a lucky hit, and 425 on an average hit.

 

Also, you guys are wrong about finishing blow. The point is not that you can do 1000 damage on a dead target. The point is that eventually you run out of good DPS talents/abilities to take, and finishing blow is an easy +50% damage in any circumstance and additional massive damage to take down bosses. You'd be silly NOT to have it on a build whose only focus is single-target DPS.

 

Someone else said "trust the veterans here" but honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, the veterans have long since come and gone (except peddrolem, to his credit he was testing out abilities and calculating stuff since the game came out). This is an old game that is not too complicated and has been "solved" for a while now. It's kinda disappointing to come back here and instead of calculations and technical discussion you see "trust us" and "lol nerd".



#43
Dr <3

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Have you seen my post? Do you honestly think that you can obtain similar numbers with a rogue?

#44
Boeroer

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Who said "lol nerd"? As far as I know nobody did that. This has been a civilized discussion so far and I would be happy if it stays this way.

I also wouldn't say that you should blindly trust the "vets" - who can define what that is - but if some people who played the game quite a bit and did a lot of research and testing all tell you their experiences you maybe should keep an open mind and consider that there might be a slightchance that they don't talk total nonsense. Especially if they report about tests that have been done inside the game and outside of a highly theoretical and maybe outdated spreadsheet.

You can still present a testing setup where a rogue build beats a druid in single target DPS throughout the same encounter.

I tried to post several builds for every class here in the past and sunk countless hours into planning, testing and playing those builds. And sadly there's a reason why I only posted two rogue builds so far and both are no melee rogues: it's not because I hate rogues (I don't). They just don't perform as well as all the other class builds I tried. Not in terms of fun (which is highly subjective) but also not even in the terms of dps. You can't solo bounties with them. It's possible with any class exept rogues if you don't want to split pull and draw the invisibility card all the time. And nowadays it's even worse when compared to other classes because those got really neat abilities during the expansions. That's no proof of course,but those are hints that cope with my general impression that rogues are the weakest (and most one-dimensional) class atm.

If you want to keep up with barbs, casters and monks in terms of damage and you only can deal single target damage it better be really really high or really reliable.

I mean there are some builds that work quite well, like the shield rogue with Badgradr's Barricade for example. It's fun enough. It's just sad that even such a creative idea gets outperformed by most other classes that can even add something else than single target damage to the party.

Concerning Finishing Blow: I think we talk past each other. It's a not too good DPS ability with weird mechanics that has very limited uses per rest. It has not much impact on your DPS. Not like Charge or Wildstrike or Heart of Fury or whatever else do which too can use per encounter and are even more powerful when used properly. So I don't think it's of any value to say rogues are good damage dealers because of the very circumstancial Finishing Blow. It is now what Heart of Fury was before the buff: a bad joke. It would be a whole other situation if it would be a per encounter ability or even a (weaker) passive ability: more bonus damage the lower the endurance of the target - now that would have been a cool ability.

They can do good single target DPS, true, but they are not the best, that's what's sad about the whole situation. Because they can't do much else than that.
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#45
Boeroer

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Have you seen my post? Do you honestly think that you can obtain similar numbers with a rogue?


I never managed. And I really tried when that druid > rogue discussion came up back then. Not with annihilating sabres nor with dual Drawn in Spring and also not with dual Bittercut (although that's quite neat with the two damage types + Spirit of Decay + corrosive lash). It works with Missile Barrage + Deathblows though. But that's a bit limited. ;)

#46
Phenomenum

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Hey, Happy New Year all of you! I wish you a buhch of luck, peace and happiness!
PoE2017jpg_1908295_24621594.jpg


Edited by Phenomenum, 31 December 2016 - 03:36 PM.

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#47
JerekKruger

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Your first part is a bit misleading. A lot of enemies have more than 100 endurance, and usually it takes more than 1 hit to kill them.

 

Most enemies have more than 100 endurance yes, but you're not going to be getting huge Finishing Blows hits against them until their endurance is low and, unless I misunderstood, your 1700 perfect crit relied on Finishing Blows/ Certainly the only 1700ish number I see in the thread you linked is Kaylon's calculation, which relies on an enemy being below 1% endurance. Under these circumstances, 100 endurance is incredibly generous, since the highest endurance I can find on the Gamebanshee guide is about 750 for one of the two bog dragons, so under 1% would be 7 endurance (assuming PoE doesn't track decimal endurance).

 

So to clarify: If you hit an enemy with a 1700 crit when it has 7 endurance remaining then you have only really done 7 damage and therefore that huge crit is not reflected in your real damage output.



#48
Elric Galad

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[...]

 


 

Your first part is a bit misleading. A lot of enemies have more than 100 endurance, and usually it takes more than 1 hit to kill them. The rogue doesn't one-hit kill everything, which means the damage is not lost, like you suggest. Only when you reach the point where a class can one-hit a lot of powerful enemies does it mean any further damage is meaningless.

 

I'd love a link to the spiritshift druid calc you mention.

 

Regarding the last part, the variation in weapon damage is not that much, surely you know this? Taking the Estoc as an example, average damage roll is only 15% lower than the max damage. It's not like you'll roll one attack and hit for 500, and then roll another and hit for 200. More like you'll roll 500 on a lucky hit, and 425 on an average hit.

 

Also, you guys are wrong about finishing blow. The point is not that you can do 1000 damage on a dead target. The point is that eventually you run out of good DPS talents/abilities to take, and finishing blow is an easy +50% damage in any circumstance and additional massive damage to take down bosses. You'd be silly NOT to have it on a build whose only focus is single-target DPS.

 

Someone else said "trust the veterans here" but honestly, and don't take this the wrong way, the veterans have long since come and gone (except peddrolem, to his credit he was testing out abilities and calculating stuff since the game came out). This is an old game that is not too complicated and has been "solved" for a while now. It's kinda disappointing to come back here and instead of calculations and technical discussion you see "trust us" and "lol nerd".

 

 

 

Sorry if this "trust us" sounded a bit pretentious. It was more a lazy answer than anything.

 

I've found the link you were asking for about Druid vs Rogue damages.

 

https://forums.obsid...apeshift/page-2

 

Happy new year 2017 to everyone by the way !

Best wishes to you and your families !



#49
Dr <3

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Thks for the link. Also consider that now the "wildstrike bug" is fixed, but also without it the druid DMG remains outstanding

#50
Boeroer

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Yes - Avenging Storm getting the wildstrike lash was totally game breaking. Good they fixed that.
When I first tried that druid my jaw dropped to the floor until I figured out that there was this bug. But still impressive performance. It's even better if you skip Outlander's Frenzy and put on Sanguine Plate and Shod-in-Faith, run to your target and catch a crit, then shift. You'll have even more speed, more MIG and END and waste no time for casting. Rogue can do the same of course.

#51
the streaker

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Thanks for the links guys, and happy new year!

 

I'm on a fresh install so I'll have to replay through the whole game with WM1+2 to figure out the new skills, and do some test runs with results to convince you (and myself :p) that rogue is still king.

It's not that I'm stubborn, I see the videos of druids doing 100+ dmg per swing. Druids are simple - you turn on beast mode, and left click an enemy (apologies in advance for the long post, but I feel the rogue has gone out of style and his full abilities ignored on this board as of late).

 

Rogues are complicated, but I'm a math guy and I love seeing how the numbers add up. Higher base accuracy, better +accuracy talents, higher perception (int is a dump stat, on druid it's vital), sabres enchanted with +accuracy and +crit, meaning crit chance sky-high. Sabre base damage of approx. 25, increased by crit (+1x), sneak (+0.5x), deathblows (+1x), savage (+0.2x), strength (conservatively +0.3x), for a total of about 3x base damage.

 

Now add on the weapon lash damage + heart of the storm (or equivalent) + slaying mod on to the base weapon damage. I don't remember enough about the game to work that out, so let's say it's total 40 base weapon damage x 3 = 120 on a crit (roughly, some gurus are going to bust me on some details here). Now you use the numerous rogue activated abilities that use "full attack" aka swing both weapons, as well as adding 25% to 50% additional damage boost. "Full attack" doesn't quite double your DPS, but it's damn close.

 

Note I'm not including any other specific boosts and buffs you can accumulate, cause it's too long of a list, but you bet I'll use them all to achieve the max damage per hit.

 

And by the way, you start out in stealth with another +150% backstab damage boost. Then after you've broken stealth, you just pop back into invisibility instantly, and attack right after for another +150% backstab damage bonus. Do that a few more times. Now add up all the damage you've done over the time it took you to do it... the DPS number is insane. And, needless to say, with bosses that are below "injured" it's obvious what happens when you put a rogue on him... 1000 dmg hits x 4.

 

I know eventually you'll run out of these activated abilities, but they'll last you enough to outperform the ~20s that the druid is doing basic attacks in shapeshift form. In the meantime you're constantly losing aggro due to invisibility, so you can actually stand and fight instead of getting boned by enemy attacks and spells. I also realize this is a lot of effort spent on one character, but the rogue needs to be the star of the party in order to shine, otherwise don't bother with her. She's like a racecar - no good for going to work and back everyday, but she can do the 1/4 mile in record time ;)


Edited by the streaker, 02 January 2017 - 12:14 AM.


#52
Boeroer

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Cool you want to try. :)

You don't have to play through the whole game for that by the way. You could buy two hirelings in Gilded Vale's inn and then use the console to level up and get all the gear and enchantments you need. That way I test new build ideas before using then in a complete play through. Spares a lot of time. :)

If you want to do that and can't figure out how it works or can't find the right commands don't hesitate to ask. It's quite simple but sometimes the commands are a bit obscure and some internal game object names are spelled wrongly or differ completely from the ingame lore or item description. Example: Maefolc Skull is Giants Skull and The Hours of St Rumbalt is The Hours of St Rumbault and stuff like that. You can find the correct game object names for the console in the game object folder on your hard drive.

Edited by Boeroer, 02 January 2017 - 01:31 AM.


#53
JerekKruger

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I'll be interested in seeing the result, and if you do provide convincing evidence that the Rogue can do better single target damage than the Druid I will accept it of course. Good luck.



#54
Elric Galad

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Well, the point is that rogue should be way better than druid to convince me.
Druids has other cards in its play such as Relentless Storm and Form of the Delegan (8 stacking physical DR for party, fast cast and ultimately per encounter...).


And you should also compare Rogue with Ranger. After all, Druid DPS is limited in duration. (Reloading Spiritshift with the scepter requires attacking with it several times until it procs, so I usually prefer switching to spells at this point of the fight.)

Ranger (and pet) single target DPS is another big competitor. In my opinion, this is even more critical than comparing rogue with druid.


But good luck !

Edited by Elric Galad, 02 January 2017 - 04:46 AM.


#55
Dr <3

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Or if you want to do a full run just make a party with both rogue and druid and see wich you prefer over time ( since i'm quite sure druid will have better resaults you can even make rogue ad your main to have advantage of Story talents , like merciless hand ecc )

#56
the streaker

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Cool you want to try. :)

You don't have to play through the whole game for that by the way. You could buy two hirelings in Gilded Vale's inn and then use the console to level up and get all the gear and enchantments you need. That way I test new build ideas before using then in a complete play through. Spares a lot of time. :)

If you want to do that and can't figure out how it works or can't find the right commands don't hesitate to ask. It's quite simple but sometimes the commands are a bit obscure and some internal game object names are spelled wrongly or differ completely from the ingame lore or item description. Example: Maefolc Skull is Giants Skull and The Hours of St Rumbalt is The Hours of St Rumbault and stuff like that. You can find the correct game object names for the console in the game object folder on your hard drive.

 

OK thanks for the advice, might take a while regardless. In the meantime, here's a pic of my new lvl 4 rogue with generic fine sabres doing 73dmg on his first crit :p

Attached Files



#57
Boeroer

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Backstab + Sneak Attack + crit = +250% base damage. That is nice for a single hit of course.

Too bad a rogue can't backstab all the time. ;)

#58
the streaker

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OK, I ran two builds (attached pdf) around in the tavern, they're not optimized, but the best I could do off the top of my head. Both builds crit all the peasants, so my numbers are only crits. The druid just runs into the fray and kills things. The rogue is accompanied by cipher who runs in first and uses starting focus to eyestrike and bind everyone in an AoE = instant sneak + deathblows on everyone. I did about 30 attacks and averaged the damage.

 

Rogue average swing damage is around 100. Too low, I have to look into what's not optimized, but that's for another time.

Druid average swing damage is around 140, and that new lvl8 storm spell adds another 50 (Jesus... talk about a buff).

 

So on a critical swing + storm strike, the latest druid spiritshifter is actually very impressive, I must admit.

 

In regards to attack speed, rogue with full attacks/zero recovery enchants is at 1s/attack. Side note: I can get quite a bit higher DPS with enchanted stillettos, since they swing so much faster - and with zero recovery, DPS is all about swing speed. Didn't test fully.

Druid is at 1.22s/attack, if info on this forum is correct.

 

The final and hardest part is accounting for the massive difference in accuracy. Comparing to a target of equal defense to the druid's accuracy, the druid never actually crits, and only hits half the time (50%hit/35%graze/15%miss). The rogue's spread is more like 40%crit/40%hit/20%graze against the same target. Furthermore, rogue doesn't actually depend on crits as much, because it's only one of a long list of additive damage multipliers. Druid's base damage is very high, so the difference between a graze and a crit is massive.

 

Using my very outdated and limited knowledge of graze/crit multipliers and how they combine with weapon+lash damage and other multipliers, I did some funny math and normalized both classes' DPS to account for grazes and hits, and believe it or not, the two classes are almost identical, with the rogue pulling ahead a bit (I bet you're rolling your eyes at that :p but my setup and data is there for you to interpret yourself).

 

TL;DR:

- Once per rest, for 13 seconds, a cat spiritshifter druid can go into cat flurry attack mode and wreck house.

- For 24 seconds, a cat spiritshifter and a sneaky rogue are surprisingly close in single-target DPS against a respectable enemy defense, assuming the spiritshifter uses lvl 8 avenging storm spell, and the rogue can use deathblows. I find the rogue pulls ahead due to the higher accuracy and quicker swinging weapon. DW Stiletto rogue might be even better.

- For fights lasting longer than 24 seconds, the rogue is the obvious winner.

- If fighting trash under-levelled mobs that the druid can reliably crit, he is deadly.

 

Other notes:

- the special abilities you can get from equipment (especially the WM stuff) is insane, and the druid loses it all during combat. E.g. Purgatory + executioner's hood restores tons of endurance to the rogue, executioner's hoot also does passive AoE frightened, Gwyn's band can be used to daze.

- Druid is easy and requires little setup. Go into beast mode and kill stuff. Rogue requires party support.

- Rogue has much higher interrupt and concentration

- Deflection and DR similar on both

 

Attached File  druid vs rogue.pdf   31.25KB   10 downloads


Edited by the streaker, 02 January 2017 - 08:10 PM.


#59
peddroelm

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Druid + DAOM potion drank before shape shift should attack at 0 recovery (dual weapon wield and no armor penalty) . Two weapon fighting should also enable vulnerable attack at 0 recovery. It might not seem much but at 0.6666s attack speed (for 0 DEX cat form) it will add a bit before the lash multipliers.  (on the other hand druids don't get many perks)

 

At 0 recovery cat/Hiravias druid has huge DPS advantage since it has the attack speed of small weapons (almost twice as fast as the rest of the forms). The rest of the forms attack as at 1s attack speed at 0 DEX but the boar has a massive 20% wound (DR ignoring multiplicative component that is extra multiplied by Might Mod again) damage built in.  So cat form almost double the DPS of the other forms except extreme might boar that might even overtake it vs very high DR targets.

 

ONE CANNOT IGNORE LASH (multiplicative) damage in the comparison since druid & rogue cannot get the same amounts (druid can get way more) and at high damage numbers amount for a ton of extra damage. One can probably reach above 100% lash damage components on druid which pretty much doubles the DPS (requires party support /  chanter burn aura / depends on the various target's DR amounts vs the different damage types )

 

And yes druid (NEEDs) / benefits way more from (party) accuracy buffs. As noted above their accuracy progression "sucks" compared to rogue, and due to the huge base damage , the (shape-shifting) druid benefits/suffers way more from the hit quality damage modifiers (*0 miss, -0.5 graze, 0 , 0.5 crit). In the "real world" druid will often lose a lot of potential DPS due to accuracy issues vs high deflection targets unless properly supported (ACCURACY BUFFS and deflection debuffs) which while critical to any type of damage user that uses deflection for hit checks is particularly effective for the shape-shifting druid. 

 

Druid can use savage attack while the rogue cannot (suppresses reckless damage bonus ). Very worthwhile on cat form AFTER you fix the accuracy issues.

 

Fast weapons are the way to go for max  DPS rogue (almost half attack speed duration while the base damage difference is way smaller ). Unique weapons do throw a bit of a spanner in the calculations (sharp sabre/ annihilating/ spirit of decay bittercut) but I'm pretty sure (dualing?) the wounding dagger should still end up comfortably on top vs most DR levels. (doubly so with obscene might rogue). Fast/small weapons make for a character that is more "responsive" in combat and can react faster to new developments on the battlefield.  Finishing blow is not enough to justify the slow, harder hitting 1s attack speed weapons. 

 

Optimal finishing blow use [ NEXT TO 0 OVERKILL DAMAGE] requires MODS to display the numeric remaining hitpoints of enemies and pocket calculator / app to calculate [minimal] finish blow damage per hit based on the remaining target hit-points (and rogue skills/equipment/active buffs) EVERY time the target sustains any damage.

Game doesn't show even max enemy hit-points in game (bestiary/meta-knowledge) and doesn't even display CORRECTLY normal attack's damage range most of the time (LYING CHARACTER SCREEN), let alone finishing blow's damage range vs targets (COULD MAYBE MODDED TO DISPLAY SELECTED SKILL DAMAGE RANGE FOR BOTH WEAPONS ON HOVER OVER TARGET (considering the variable amounts of hitpoint loss after the first hand hit)). (3 damage ranges for first hand (graze, normal,crit) and 3 damage rages (graze,hit,crit)  for the second hand for EVERY first hand damage range; 12 damage ranges in total; that hover-box damage range simulator for dual wield finishing blow would cover half the screen :) ) .

 

As it stands (designed ?) finishing blow is most of the time just a tool for massive overkill and meaningless high combat log damage numbers. (it will be either activating too early doing next to no multiplicative damage and not killing the target OR way too late - massive meaningless overkill and waste of the ability when auto attack alone would've finished the job). The game currently doesn't provide anywhere nearly enough tools to allow close to optimal use of the ability and judging by the ability description card (bogus) shows exactly how much the developers care about the matter.


Edited by peddroelm, 02 January 2017 - 09:59 PM.


#60
Dr <3

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Some notes, i will write more detail when i have time:
- you could optimize more your druid build taking away vulnerable attacks and superior deflection and adding gallant focus (+4 accuracy) and apprentice sneack attack.
- you forgot to use " the other half" of druid: if you cast dangleman form before the fight for example you can reach good dr and immunity to Stuck, a simple avenging storm at the start of the fight will boost your survivability far over the rogue ( stunned enemies do not hit you); at the same time enable sneack attack ( 15% of 47-74 is about 10 DMG in mean, more than activating vulnerable attack) and finally solve your accuracy issue ( stunned enemies got -30 to deflecion so is not hard to crit anymore). But you can not try this in the tavern since everyone istanly dies thoug 😂
- you have to decide if testing in party or in solo
In solo with 3 int will be neraly impossible to your rogue to mantain deathblows, unless you lower the parception and add to int, in the same way you build your druid. Also this will indirectly lower the gap in accuracy that you found.
In party if you enable also priest and chanter druid get boosted more than the rogue. Devotions for the faithful is a mayor boost to accuracy for both classes, but you are right saying that druid benefit more. Champions boon clearly favors the druid, since he has a much bigger "base dmg" to multiply ( sabres have a base dmg of 16-19, druid claws much more). Same goes for the Chanter : +25% burning lash is much more "visibile" on the druid ( and in his case it apply also on the avenging storm hit).

Edited by Dr <3, 02 January 2017 - 11:25 PM.






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