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AMD Ryzen

AMD Zen Ryzen

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#181
Zoraptor

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The latest rumour for Zen2 is 8 cores/ ccx, 10-15% (!) IPC gain and 5GHz clocks. I'm... skeptical. If true it would be an utter disaster for Intel as their clock and slight IPC lead would be gone at a stroke, and they'd be potentially competing with threadripper class chips at consumer prices; but I suspect 6 cores/ccx, 5% IPC and up to 5GHz clocks would be more likely given the available information on TSMC's 7nm (with GloFo's being a bit behind both time and process spec wise), but that would still be better and cheaper than Intel's offerings until they can offer maybe 10nm++ which could be years away.



#182
injurai

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AMD were the ones pushing the 5GHz before that trend broke, if they are better positioned to play at the thermal edge all ontop of their recent fab/arch gains, then yeah Intel should fear.

 

Still I think Intel has the prototypes to win, just their production pipeline has probably been caught a bit behind where they otherwise need to be.



#183
Zoraptor

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They have some good potential chips on paper, but with 14nm being in its 5th year and with the only way to improve it seemingly being to add cores Intel desperately needs their 10nm process working properly, and by their own admission it's likely to take 2 revisions to get practical performance above their current optimised 14nm process- and with their competition now being AMD and TSMC/ GloFo 7nm and not primarily their own chips that's a major problem. The 10nm fiasco is also gumming up any IPC improvements they may have from improvements to the Core architecture, since they haven't (yet and probably won't with 9 series if the rumours are true and it is just more cores at identical clocks and IPC) or cannot bring them to the working 14nm process.

 

But yeah, the medium term positive for Intel is that when they do get 10nm working they may well get a burst of IPC improvements along with the increased density/ cores/ potential clock speeds/ energy efficiency from the smaller process.



#184
injurai

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What's the relationship between AMD and TSMC/GloFo that allows them to be ready for 7nm and Intel not?



#185
Zoraptor

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AMD used to own Global Foundries but spun it off, and they used to have an exclusive contract with them but bought out of it a couple of years ago. So AMD outsources its production and can use TSMC/ GloFo or anyone else's compatible fabs if needed as demand, cost and performance dictates. Intel's production is in house so they have and exclusively use their own processes; historically this has been an advantage as they have typically been ~2 years ahead of the competition tech wise. 10nm was due well before the (equivalent, despite the size difference in the name) TSMC/ GloFo 7nm process but still hasn't really arrived in any meaningful way, so the usual situation is reversed.

 

Theoretically Intel could outsource production too, but that would be crippling to morale/ prestige and require some significant redesigns. The technicalities of which are well beyond my expertise though.


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#186
Keyrock

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The latest rumour for Zen2 is 8 cores/ ccx, 10-15% (!) IPC gain and 5GHz clocks. I'm... skeptical. If true it would be an utter disaster for Intel as their clock and slight IPC lead would be gone at a stroke, and they'd be potentially competing with threadripper class chips at consumer prices; but I suspect 6 cores/ccx, 5% IPC and up to 5GHz clocks would be more likely given the available information on TSMC's 7nm (with GloFo's being a bit behind both time and process spec wise), but that would still be better and cheaper than Intel's offerings until they can offer maybe 10nm++ which could be years away.

8 cores is pretty mucha given as the current top of the line Ryzen chips are already 8 cores/16 threads. As for the increase in IPC, 10-15% is optimistic but certainly not unreasonable. If true, Intel is set to lose more ground until they can bring a true new architecture to the table.The Core architecture is really long in the tooth.

As Zoraptor mentioned, Intel's in-house chip manufacturing facilities have been their main advantage (other than strong arm tactics, FUD, and shady anti-competitive deals that stifled the competition's ability to bring products to the table) for decades. Intel has been 2 to 3 years ahead of AMD on almost every die shrink and process improvement... Until now. 10nm has been an unmitigated disaster for them and it's now many years behind schedule and AMD is set to actually beat them to the punch on a die shrink.

This is the worst position Intel has been in since the Pentium 4 space heater fiasco.

Edited by Keyrock, 27 July 2018 - 04:01 PM.

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#187
kirottu

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First Look: AMD Threadripper 2000 Series

#188
M4xw0lf

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Tests of the TR 2950X (16c/32t) and 2990WX (32c/64t) will be out next monday, but of course the improvements we're going to see are clear from comparing the 1800X and 2700X (at least for the 2950X - the 2990WX comes with the small boon of double the cores ^^).


Edited by M4xw0lf, 06 August 2018 - 11:47 AM.


#189
injurai

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I wonder if we'll see anything at QuakeCon



#190
Keyrock

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The Threadripper 2 benchmarks are out and these things are monsters.  The 2950X and 2990WX OBLITERATE anything Intel has on offer right now, and the 2950X does it at a much lower price point than Intel's top offering in the category while still mopping the floor with it.  For us gamers, though, these chips are overkill and not a value proposition as they offer few, if any, benefits for gaming at a much higher price point than consumer grade chips.  The best value proposition for gamers is the 2920X.  The 4 extra cores over AMD's consumer grade top offering isn't a big deal for gaming, but what is nice is that you still get the 64 lanes of PCIE 3.0, like its more expensive cousins, and at a price point that's not as ridiculously higher than consumer grade chips.  For big production workloads, encoding, stuff like that, with properly extremely high-threaded workloads, though, the high-end Threadripper 2 chips are monsters that wipe the floor with anything Intel has out now in the same category, and, quite frankly, I don't think Intel has anything they can put out at that price point that can even attempt to compete with the 2990WX in the next couple years, until they develop a new architecture that can scale like AMD's Infinity Fabric or better.


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#191
Zoraptor

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No 7nm from Global Foundries now, so Zen 2- and the 7nm graphics chips- will be exclusive to TSMC. Bit of a shame as contrary to what I said above GloFo's 7nm was actually tracking a bit better than TSMC's performance wise but apparently was looking to be a lot more costly and in the end too costly.



#192
Malcador

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That is going to hurt IBM a lot, apparently.



#193
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Yeah, might mean no Power 7nm chips for IBM. GloFo's 7nm was largely based on IBM's own 7nm work.



#194
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Intel has launched their new i9- for the low cost of one kidney*. Wouldn't normally be relevant for here, but...

 

cZ4FWU5.jpg
 
Not like the other two points are exactly stellar either. 9570 was as mainstream as the 9900k, and soldering is returning something that should never have gone from the top end.

 

*here you could buy 2x 2700x or a threadripper and MB (albeit a cheap one) for the same price.



#195
injurai

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Imo, AMD's pricing encourages more frequent upgrades. Which means it would be easier for AMD to move their top-end stock. Intel's recent models are more about brokering SKU's for dividend reasons. If they were cheaper I'd be inclined to humor them more.

 

Right now Intel's release cycle is in a sticky situation with their Process-Architecture-Optimization. New fabs are great and all but what you really want is the new arch. New archs can be flawed so you really want the improvement. But it's the new fabs where you see some huge jumps in transistor count. So where is the best time to purchase? All have their own risks. The major thing is whenever you do upgrade, it makes sense to have gone through a whole cycle, so if you bought on arch last time, upgrade on arch again. But this is an awful way to have to shop as a consumer. The price forces you to wait at least two/thirds of a cycle and it's not worth it until the 3rd or beyond. Then even when you do upgrade pricing is a racket because the market is flooded with sub-par chips.



#196
Zoraptor

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AMD certainly offers a more value for money long term upgrade proposition with Zen 2 still coming, plus their aggressiveness of pricing is way beyond Intel's in general. Counterintuitively though at the moment Intel has probably encouraged more upgrades- if you bought a mid range or above Ryzen at launch (1600 or greater) there's little reason to upgrade to either new Intel or AMD offerings (yet), if you own a year+ old i5 you're likely to already be getting limits from their 4 threads, and even if you bought an i7 you could now get double the cores/ threads from AMD or Intel.

 

But yeah, Intel's 10nm problems have resulted in 4 'generations' of Skylake with no IPC improvement. All the IPC improvements were set for 10nm designs which still aren't able to be produced.







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