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The real influence of populism\nationalism in the EU


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I don't see right winning votes on the weight of their economic programme. In fact, none of those parties have offered an economic alternative for the voter to latch onto, other than some extremely vague promises. Statements of the sort: "Bring back manufacturing jobs to the US", "We'll save xyz million euro if we leave the EU" were the least vague things I saw coming from the right.

 

They did however, present a hard stance on immigration.

 

You could always argue it was a punitive vote against, rather than a vote for - but if they're rejecting the economic status quo they sure as hell are rejecting the pro-immigration left positions as well.

 

And bear in mind they managed all this while on the beating end of a severe media frenzy - if the game was played on anything resembling a level playing field, there wouldn't be a single non-right government left in Europe.

 

First off, the economy is, and has been, a primary topic for both the left and the right. I don't know about the political discourse in Serbia particularly, but here, in Italy, France, and especially the UK and the US, the issue of immigration has been presented as subaltern to economy (H-2B issues in the US, strain on the NHS and public schooling in the UK) first, security concern as a distant second, and not at all as a matter of cultural emergency or ethnic survival.

 

Yes, there are good reasons to think that the votes have had a strong protest component. Against both left and right. Against the "establishment" by disaffected types, who are both increasing in number and increasingly aware that they are getting the raw end of the deal in this "social contract" which professional politicians aren't about to change anytime soon. It's not surprising that when people think their future is threatened they first seek to secure their own and that of their offspring before anyone else's. That is human nature.

 

And no, the right wasn't under MSM attack, except in the US -- only in the US it wasn't the right per se, it was Trump. It pays to remember that he guy had been disavowed by his own party. The same extreme, one-sided media polarization hasn't happened in Europe, so not only are you making an unfalsifiable (and therefore useless) claim, you are basing it on a false premise.

 

Oh, and by the way. They just elected a pro-refugee leftard in Austria this sunday. But that doesn't count because... reasons?

 

With that all said, let's go back to your original statement:

 

 

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

I have to say that you have an interesting concept about what "half" means, and the rest is basically magical thinking along the lines of Lisa's tiger-warding rock, which the very poll you brought up disproves.

Edited by 213374U

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I don't see right winning votes on the weight of their economic programme. In fact, none of those parties have offered an economic alternative for the voter to latch onto, other than some extremely vague promises. Statements of the sort: "Bring back manufacturing jobs to the US", "We'll save xyz million euro if we leave the EU" were the least vague things I saw coming from the right.

 

They did however, present a hard stance on immigration.

 

You could always argue it was a punitive vote against, rather than a vote for - but if they're rejecting the economic status quo they sure as hell are rejecting the pro-immigration left positions as well.

 

And bear in mind they managed all this while on the beating end of a severe media frenzy - if the game was played on anything resembling a level playing field, there wouldn't be a single non-right government left in Europe.

 

First off, the economy is, and has been, a primary topic for both the left and the right. I don't know about the political discourse in Serbia particularly, but here, in Italy, France, and especially the UK and the US, the issue of immigration has been presented as subaltern to economy (H-2B issues in the US, strain on the NHS and public schooling in the UK) first, security concern as a distant second, and not at all as a matter of cultural emergency or ethnic survival.

 

Yes, there are good reasons to think that the votes have had a strong protest component. Against both left and right. Against the "establishment" by disaffected types, who are both increasing in number and increasingly aware that they are getting the raw end of the deal in this "social contract" which professional politicians aren't about to change anytime soon. It's not surprising that when people think their future is threatened they first seek to secure their own and that of their offspring before anyone else's. That is human nature.

 

And no, the right wasn't under MSM attack, except in the US -- only in the US it wasn't the right per se, it was Trump. It pays to remember that he guy had been disavowed by his own party. The same extreme, one-sided media polarization hasn't happened in Europe, so not only are you making an unfalsifiable (and therefore useless) claim, you are basing it on a false premise.

 

Oh, and by the way. They just elected a pro-refugee leftard in Austria this sunday. But that doesn't count because... reasons?

 

With that all said, let's go back to your original statement:

 

 

By the way, some people on this forum were very dedicated to proving me wrong on the issue of Islam and immigration. Now that its successfully tanked half of your governments, what have you to say now?

I have to say that you have an interesting concept about what "half" means, and the rest is basically magical thinking along the lines of Lisa's tiger-warding rock, which the very poll you brought up disproves.

 

 

Immigration is a non-issue in Serbian politics because we're a transit route, not a destination.

 

I call bull on the claim that the media isn't overwhelmingly one sided. The anti-Brexit propaganda was visceral, the media discrimination of Le Pen, Wilders, Farage, Orban, Swedish Democrats has been pervasive for years. They're allowed to participate in the political process but the media has been demonizing them for as long as they've been around. I can't see anyone claiming with a straight face that those parties/individuals have been getting fair treatment in their respective societies. 

 

Now that their opponents are trying to backtrack and incorporate their stances on immigration in their policies (shown by Merkel's new speech at her candidacy announcement) it has become more socially acceptable to hold those positions, but up until recently, claiming affiliation with any of those parties was practically tantamount to social and (sometimes) professional suicide. They were the dirty racists, islamophobes, homophobes, nationalists, nazis, fascists etc. etc.

 

Yes they elected a leftist in Austria. The other guy got substantial support as well, so its not like they're a fringe thing there. 

 

What does half mean? Well the victory of Brexit and Trump is basically a victory for the right. The conservatives are still around in GB because the political system doesn't allow for any other party to truly compete with the two main ones, but the vote showed that the majority of Brits are basically even more to the right than the alleged party of the right.

Then we have the French elections. Hollande is a corpse, the right (in some shape or form) will take power in France. Fillon, or Le Pen - the left is done in France.

Netherlands. Polls give Wilders a significant chunk of the parliament. Whether he'll be able to form a government with everyone against him is another matter. Polls also show the Labour party losing a tremendous amount of seats.

Germany. Its practically impossible to unseat an incumbent chancellor. That's how their system works. But Merkel admitted her policies on immigration were a failure and her public support is at a low level. 

I don't follow Spanish or Italian politics.

So even though some governments may survive the fact is that current policies have blown up in the face of all of the aforementioned European governments and the immigration was a significant part of that.

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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I call bull on the claim that the media isn't overwhelmingly one sided. The anti-Brexit propaganda was visceral, the media discrimination of Le Pen, Wilders, Farage, Orban, Swedish Democrats has been pervasive for years. They're allowed to participate in the political process but the media has been demonizing them for as long as they've been around. I can't see anyone claiming with a straight face that those parties/individuals have been getting fair treatment in their respective societies. 

 

Now that their opponents are trying to backtrack and incorporate their stances on immigration in their policies (shown by Merkel's new speech at her candidacy announcement) it has become more socially acceptable to hold those positions, but up until recently, claiming affiliation with any of those parties was practically tantamount to social and (sometimes) professional suicide. They were the dirty racists, islamophobes, homophobes, nationalists, nazis, fascists etc. etc.

 

Yes they elected a leftist in Austria. The other guy got substantial support as well, so its not like they're a fringe thing there. 

 

What does half mean? Well the victory of Brexit and Trump is basically a victory for the right. The conservatives are still around in GB because the political system doesn't allow for any other party to truly compete with the two main ones, but the vote showed that the majority of Brits are basically even more to the right than the alleged party of the right.

Then we have the French elections. Hollande is a corpse, the right (in some shape or form) will take power in France. Fillon, or Le Pen - the left is done in France.

Netherlands. Polls give Wilders a significant chunk of the parliament. Whether he'll be able to form a government with everyone against him is another matter. Polls also show the Labour party losing a tremendous amount of seats.

Germany. Its practically impossible to unseat an incumbent chancellor. That's how their system works. But Merkel admitted her policies on immigration were a failure and her public support is at a low level. 

I don't follow Spanish or Italian politics.

So even though some governments may survive the fact is that current policies have blown up in the face of all of the aforementioned European governments and the immigration was a significant part of that.

 

So, we went from "half of the governments in Yurop have been tanked due to immigration (Islam)" to "Trump has won in the US, and maybe in the future the right is going to win elsewhere, and er, Brexit means the right won (despite the fact that the Tory PM resigned over it)". You done shifting from one foot to the other yet?

 

Again, other than your own bias, what do you have to support that "immigration (Islam) was a significant part" of the results of Brexit and the Italian referendum? This is how it works: you look at evidence and then you make a hypothesis. What you've been doing is cherrypick facts and then magically draw conclusions that, oh surprise, fit your preconceptions.

 

And please, understand that getting lambasted by the media is "fair" representation when you are in fact a self-servingproven liar. If you are equating the one-sided treatment that Le Pen and Orban get in European media to what Trump received, well... I don't know what to say to you. Read more newspapers?

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What do you mean maybe? Who do you think is going to win in France, with every poll predicting a face off between two candidates of the right? Is the fact that the country has devolved into all but a ("state of emergency") police state since the attacks not conclusive proof that the French have a problem with immigration/integration that's so bad they don't even know how to handle it?

 

 Is Merkel admitting defeat and backtracking on her immigrant policies not a sign of policy failure?  The fact that she's practically impossible to remove from power doesn't mean that "things are okay". 

http://www.dw.com/en/nationwide-german-poll-merkels-popularity-dips-to-five-year-low/a-19521704

 

Proposals involving dual citizenship restrictions, a burqa ban, more police and speedy deportations: the populist Alternative for Germany (AfD) found issues it had been focusing on for months at the center of national debate.

Its quite clear which issue tanked her popularity and that's her handling of the migrant crisis and resulting security. Whether its actually relevant to most Germans is unimportant - the perception that it is, is there.

 

There were daily reports of racist attacks on immigrants in Britain post Brexit. It was quite plain that the anti-immigrant (both mild and not so mild) sentiment was rallied behind that cause. Maybe you should read more newspapers? Its victory is a clear sign that the majority of the populace is further to the right than even the alleged party of the right. Some of it is the economy, pervasive euroscepticism the British always had, but its pretty damn clear a lot of it is also about getting all these "brown people" out of the country. 

 

I never said anything about the Italian referendum. I don't even know what the fuss is all about, Italy changes governments like people change socks. 

 

As for the Farage articles, that is a joke. A politician being a self-serving liar? Wow Columbus. 

I never said any of those politicians were good people or on the "right side" of history. What i said was that the media discriminates against them and that is frankly true. The media in Europe is not nearly as powerful as Trump's opponents in the US (nor are the stakes so high for so many people), so the scale of the attacks is going to be lower. The discourse of the right regarding Islam and immigration was buried under media attacks for years with the usual Nazi qualification hammer. If it was such a non-issue it would have gone away - instead its the only thing that's making headlines for months.

 

Get out from your marxist rock and realize that people can have other concerns apart from the state of the economy. Having bread on the table is not the only issue relevant to mankind and the political process, otherwise we wouldn't have religions, nation states, tribes, cultures or any other sort of affiliation.

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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Well you are wrong about Britain, they don't want 'brown' people out, they want east europeans out. And reason for it is pretty simple - they actually took jobs of UK people, while immigrants form Afrika/Asia usually takes jobs which UK people don't want to do

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Get out from your marxist rock and realize that people can have other concerns apart from the state of the economy. Having bread on the table is not the only issue relevant to mankind and the political process, otherwise we wouldn't have religions, nation states, tribes, cultures or any other sort of affiliation.

 

 

Haha, okay mate. So we've gone from "Islam tanking half our governments" to "people are not only" concerned about the economy! Whoop-de-****ing-doo, but at least we're making progress. I never said that the economy was their only concern, I said you were cherrypicking and jumping to conclusions. Then the poll *you* cited said economic issues rate first among their concerns, if not exclusively.

 

Maybe read your own links for a change:

 

 

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"All the same, most Germans still trust the CDU to come up with solid asylum and refugee policies. But 27 percent of Germans say they feel none of the country's political parties have convincing solutions to the problem - a rather high figure.

 

Only 7 percent say they're confident that the AfD - which has yet to prove its authority as part of a government - has the right answers."

 

 

So her popularity is falling... and yet she's still 10% ahead of her closest competitors, the socialists. Her lead over the AfD is almost 20 points. It's not that it's "practically impossible" to unseat Merkel. It's that Germans seemingly aren't keen on putting the far right in power again so soon.

 

But there's more:

 

more1.jpg

 

more2.jpg

 

 

http://ifop.fr/media/poll/3576-1-study_file.pdf

http://www.bva.fr/data/sondage/sondage_fiche/1930/fichier_intentions_de_vote_-_vague_7_-_pop2017_-_7_decembre_2016cbc14.pdf

 

 

Hmm... the two latest polls for the upcoming French presidential election show that the foremost concern for the French is, in fact, unemployment. Terrorism and security second in both, but on the one where a comparison to previous polls is made, it's clear that it's starting to take a back seat. Understandable considering that there haven't been any more attacks for a while now. Those two polls do predict a victory for the right, but neither gives Le Pen a shot.

 

Yeah, yeah. The poor right gets discriminated against (what the hell does that even mean?) by the evil librul media. Your evidence? "that's frankly true" and "nobody with a straight face would claim otherwise". Yeah, you'll excuse me if I don't take your critical assessments as gospel. You don't exactly have a great track record interpreting data objectively.

 

It's frankly sad how you keep twisting facts and misinterpreting figures to suit your Islamic bogeymen stories. Wake me up when you learn to properly cite stuff that actually supports what you are saying.

 

edit: of course, it pays to remember how laughably off polls have been lately. Brexit, Trump, and it also happened here. Another thing to consider when making predictions and regarding matters as settled.

Edited by 213374U
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Just look at the hateful faces of Le Pen and Wilders. Just look at them. There's tremendous hatred in their hearts.

 

Witness the face of love:

 

1476324707676.jpg

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I gotta be honest here: I'm very suspicious of other country's interests in Germany's policies.

 

I regularly see Americans, British, Swedish, Polish....all kinds of different countries commenting on how Germany is dying or under Sharia Law and bla bla bla....well first of all, lolno. Second, even if it were, why do people care...? Like Poland for example doesn't let the refugees in. Okay. Good for Poland. Their country, their choice. So why is it when Germany lets refugees in, somehow all these other countries somehow seem validated in lecturing Germany for doing so...?

I live in one of the three states that sees the largest portion of immigrants. Know what I've seen? Syrians addicted to iphones. That's it. They get babbies first iphone, get addicted to it, and no joke, I legit distinguish the turks from the Syrians not by physical traits, but by iphone addiction or general demeanor. I personally have not had an issue with them, nor has there been an issue remotely close to my doorstep or my area.

 

Know what I have seen? American publications wrongly interpretating a scenario that just basic understanding of the German language could've solved. Hysterical headlines that conclude every problem in Germany must be the result of muslims. Remember our "terrorist attack" that turned out to be a German-Iraqi dual citizen with mental stability issues who ran around shooting brown people cause he didn't want foreigners in "his country?" Yeah. I understand 100% the desire to conclude it was ISIS when the story was developing, but I would hope we can look back on it now and say "oh look, Germany hasn't been subjected to nonstop, wide-scale terrorist attacks like some other countries."

Since Germany decided to take in roughly 1.5mil refugees, there have been five instances of an attack in the name of islam, one actually targeting Americans rather than Germans, four failing to kill anyone, though injuring 21 in total between them. Alongside this I know of about four additional cases involving an assault of some kind, sexual or physical, at least one resulting in death. If people consider that to be 21 injuries too many or five (or four, depending on interpretation) close calls too many, good for you, you have a right to that opinion and it's a completely reasonable opinion. However, in that same sense, I would state it's rather unreasonable to act as though Germany is being taken over by Sharia law because less than 10 of 1.5mil refugees crossed the line. I would likewise question why the HELL everyone else gets off thinking they can tell Germany it did "wrong" by making this choice given events thusfar. Recently Merkel pointed out that these problem children cannot be viewed as the rule rather than the exception, and the response...? Again I see Americans, British, Polish, Swedish and everyone else that isn't German telling Merkel to cut her BS and go to hell for saying that. I didn't even vote for Merkel, but I still find that reaction to be completely ridiculous. I really have no clue why these other countries' citizens care so much or why they claim to be a better authority on the situation than Germany's own Chancellor.

 

 

At this point, I wanna link this vid. Give it a quick watch:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk3NOv6XZ3Q

 

 

So you've seen the video. Were those muslims? I don't know. I mean the guy sort of has the stereotypical look to him, but he's not exactly brown, though that doesn't neccesarily mean he's not muslim either. Could be, could not be. Know what immediately jumps out at me as evidence against the idea it's muslims rather than just some drunken thug? The fact that he was drinking and smoking. I had a classmate once from Lebanon. He loved Hitler and wanted all the Jews to die. We had a "fun" time telling him that wasn't appropriate and definitely not something to say in Germany of all places. Strangely, when we got an Israeli girl in class, he was fully respectful to her and even went out of his way to be kind to her. The two became friends. Anyways, the thing about Mr. Hitlerfan? He didn't drink. He wouldn't go near alcohol. Many radical muslims won't. And look, again, that's an issue where it varies. One muslim might avoid alcohol, another might drink no problem. I do expect radical islamists would be less likely to drink though and more likely to commit some crimes in modern countries. Both together though...? Weird combo. All I'm saying is that I find it a bit odd to look at that footage and jump to the conclusion "islam did this" when the little evidence we have suggests the contrary (though it's by no means overwhelming evidence), and yet that's precisely what many people are doing.

 

What I find alarming about all of this is I view it as evidence of xenophobia. Let me be clear: not wanting muslim refugees does not make you a racist, a bigot or any other slanderous accusation. It's a perfectly reasonable stance. When I have someone trying to lecture me on how my country should go to hell for accepting refugees that have - for the most part - done absolutely nothing wrong? Yeah, now I'm starting to question why the hell people care, and I'm left to conclude xenophobia truly is on the rise if people are offended by entirely different countries not holding the same stance as them.

 

Great example of what I mean? Here: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article159236011/Die-alarmierenden-Zahlen-im-Jahresbericht-der-Bundespolizei.html

 

Can't read it? I'll provide a proper translated article in a second, but first here's one in english: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3893436/Angela-Merkel-pressure-refugee-policy-revealed-migrants-committed-142-500-crimes-Germany-six-months-2016.html

 

Ok, so ready for me to make my point? Here's one translated a lot more fairly: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/11/05/german-federal-police-rise-crime-due-migrant-crisis/

 

And I quote:

 

 

The German Federal Police are tasked primarily with the protection of railway stations, airports, and borders. Most of the recorded thefts occurred at either railway stations or on trains with 44,800 cases reported – up 25 per cent from the year before. In total, thefts have risen 11.9 per cent to 57,146 cases.

The report blames much of the crime on organised migrant gangs, many of them originating from the Balkans. The largest increase in crime by far, however, involves migrants and the violation of asylum laws including illegal immigration and people smuggling, with an increase of 151.6 per cent totally 171,477 violations over the past year.

 

Now again: if any German were to say "I consider the rise in theft a problem," cool! That's a reasonable opinion! They have every right to have it! Was in Berlin recently and saw a number of Muslims trying to swindle people with street scams (claiming to be collecting for a charity and the like) and I believe that in a heartbeat...should also mention a snobby Italian restaurant tried to fleece me and charge me double my bill, too (don't eat at Mondo Pazzo). Regardless, if the complaints were in regards to the spike in theft, I'd have no problem with that.

 

Instead? Here's another sensationalist publication that isn't from Germany itself grabbing the story and conveniently leaving out which crimes are spiking in frequency so that the reader's imagination fills in the gaps and may jump to "RAPES AND HONOR KILLINGS" instead of "petty theft and smuggling."

 

And for those thinking "well this is just proof the daily mail is garbage," I invite you to google "germany migrants crime" and thumb through articles yourself. Some even quote the daily mail as a source as they repeat the same stuff.

 

 

 

I just wish people would calm the **** down in the sense that from accusations I've seen, a lot of them come from people that have no conceivable way of knowing the facts of the situation, and yet their conclusion is always "Germany is now 90% Muslim and completely at the mercy of Sharia law and their women are raped regularly." Hysterical nonsense gets us nowhere. If you wanna speak against such policies, use facts. There's nothing wrong with being anti-immigration because you don't like clinging to your wallet at the train station or you find the story of the medical student raped and murdered to be one rape and murder too many. Or FFS there's a number of other countries that've suffered far worse results from letting Muslim immigrants in that would make great examples for arguing against such policies. The fact people choose Germany as their point of argument when it's gotta be one of the weaker samples for their argument...? To me that just shows people are more interested in pushing a narrative rather than reviewing the facts, and that mindset is exactly what I find so problematic these days, regardless of the topic being discussed.

Edited by Longknife
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"I gotta be honest here: I'm very suspicious of other country's interests in Germany's policies.I regularly see Americans, British, Swedish, Polish..."

 

So.. you have NEVER commented on other coutnries' policy? You never commented in the Amerikan politics thread? Or any other thread about other countries? COME ON. Her eor anyone else? LMAO

 

 

" Or FFS there's a number of other countries that've suffered far worse results"

 

HOLY MOLY. This found in your very whiny post about other countries/people commenting on Germany policies... you do the same exact thing. LMFAO

Edited by Volourn
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"I gotta be honest here: I'm very suspicious of other country's interests in Germany's policies.I regularly see Americans, British, Swedish, Polish..."

 

So.. you have NEVER commented on other coutnries' policy? You never commented in the Amerikan politics thread? Or any other thread about other countries? COME ON. Her eor anyone else? LMAO

 

 

" Or FFS there's a number of other countries that've suffered far worse results"

 

HOLY MOLY. This found in your very whiny post about other countries/people commenting on Germany policies... you do the same exact thing. LMFAO

 

This should be good:

 

Name a country I've commented on the policies of. While it'd be hilarious to watch you embarass yourself, I'll remind you upfront I'm a dual citizen and yes, USA is my other country. German-Americans are actually fairly common.

 

And even so, no, I am not saying you cannot comment on the policies of another country, but I am saying you need to be reasonable about it. I could be critical of Greek's debt, for example, but I likewise would be hesitant to "lecture" them because that's a sensitive topic and there's, for example, a number of reasons for Greeks themselves to feel outraged, as they are now more or less expected to keep up with the productivity of a country with a much greater GDP than theirs, and they may very well be much happier if they could do things at their own pace or may very well have some understandable reasoning to believe states such as Germany and France are giving them a bum deal, despite bailouts.

 

My point is that the tenacity with which people criticize German policy is absolutely ****ing absurd and only serves to highlight one's own bias. It's one thing to say "I feel that was a poor choice," it's another to state "GERMANY IS SELLING IT'S SOUL TO ISLAM, THOSE IDIOTS" and to trust headlines stating that much. At this point it should be obvious (I'd hope) that the media loves hysterics and the US media in particular has gone nuts for years selling an anti-Islamic slant. Mind you, I'm not saying Islam doesn't have it's problems, as there's the extreme on the opposite end that makes the mistake of answering back with a "those poor oppressed muslims" narrative that doesn't do justice to the crimes and the problems that do arise because of muslim extremists, but I am saying that the goal should be to try and have an objective understanding of the facts, not to hysterically spin them to the extreme side of whichever side you support. I would say there's a huge difference between a Syrian and a Saudi, for example, or between a Turk and a Pakistani immigrant, yet such differences are never spoken about. That's precisely what the USA tends to do with fearmongering of muslims, which only died down when it was used as a weakness of Trump's campaign. All the same, I've been asked a number of times by American friends why I don't "come home" since Germany is clearly so dangerous and absolutely riddled with muslim terrorists, and no, that is not a conclusion an ordinary human being makes out of the blue without the media egging them on to believe that way.

 

See how I use USA as my sample because it's a culture I'm familiar with? How I refrain using the UK, Sweden or Poland since I don't know their angle in full? That's called using evidence and one's own experiences to draw conclusions instead of blindly believing the media in whatever extreme or hysterical story they want to sell you today.

 

Again: it's not the anti-immigrant stance itself that I'm against, it's the attitude displayed by those who are not even in Germany as if this is the most obvious choice ever. It's an argument being made from a place of extreme ignorance, and yes, it is drastically different from a German who would argue against immigration or, let's say, a Swede who might concede that thusfar there haven't been overwhelming problems, but that he fears long term this will be a mistake and within a couple years, more problems will manifest. No, that's not happening. Instead, both media publications and normal average joes may as well be pitching this story that every German wakes up at the crack of dawn, walks their sister out to the street corner and then lets the nearest Muslim immigrant have his way with her. I hope it's obvious why that kind of absurd thinking has no place in any serious discussion of policies.

 

Stick to the facts, lose the ego and this blind belief you somehow magically know the circumstances of EVERY immigration case across the globe, and make criticisms based on facts, not wild speculation and doomsday scenarios.

 

Edited by Longknife

"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

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"Instead, both media publications and normal average joes may as well be pitching this story that every German wakes up at the crack of dawn, walks their sister out to the street corner and then lets the nearest Muslim immigrant have his way with her."

 

I'm sure they already do.

The ending of the words is ALMSIVI.

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"Instead, both media publications and normal average joes may as well be pitching this story that every German wakes up at the crack of dawn, walks their sister out to the street corner and then lets the nearest Muslim immigrant have his way with her."

 

I'm sure they already do.

 

All the time, and our school children pledge allegiance to Islam every morning while one hand is over their heart and the other is over a döner kebab.

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"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

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 ":but I am saying you need to be reasonable about it."

 

This is the internet. You expect too much.

 

The point is you DO comment on other countries then. Don't get holier than thou when you do the exact same thing.

 

 

 

Edited by Volourn

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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"Instead, both media publications and normal average joes may as well be pitching this story that every German wakes up at the crack of dawn, walks their sister out to the street corner and then lets the nearest Muslim immigrant have his way with her."

 

I'm sure they already do.

 

All the time, and our school children pledge allegiance to Islam every morning while one hand is over their heart and the other is over a döner kebab.

 

LK I am glad you have decided to defend Germany, its long overdue IMO  but better late than never

 

Germany is a very important foundation of the EU and has achieved much since the dark days of WW2, we  should be inspired by much of what Germany has done and how it was able to recreate its identity. But I find a degree of irrational and unreasonable criticism towards Germany from some members 

 

For example during the debates around austerity and the PIGS  countries I dont remember you supporting Germany ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Hah -  I was expecting something like this from Poland, but it seems Slovakia takes the torch

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/e4b69b26-4de2-3c7d-a21f-516b44ef14a3/ss_christian-slovakia-passes-law.html

 

Heh. "Islamization starts with a kebab and..."

 

I just noticed how hungry I am, and kebab seems like a wonderful idea. *dials*

Give me the eyes, so I see
Give me ears, so I hear
Give me love, so I know what love is
Give me freedom to think, to believe
In something
                        -- Tony Kakko

 

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Nobody wants to move there anyway.

 

 

 

Hah -  I was expecting something like this from Poland, but it seems Slovakia takes the torch

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/e4b69b26-4de2-3c7d-a21f-516b44ef14a3/ss_christian-slovakia-passes-law.html

 

Heh. "Islamization starts with a kebab and..."

 

I just noticed how hungry I am, and kebab seems like a wonderful idea. *dials*

 

This may seem extreme but its the unfortunate inevitable outcome from the failure of some members of the Muslim community to integrate or appreciate or respect Western values

 

This is not about the West being  " islamophobic " even though some of our East European friends may seem to have historical bias towards Muslims this is about a simple dynamic " if you immigrate to Western countries you accept there values "

 

The way we have been trying to integrate all migrants has been well meaning but flawed and if we dont address this we risk the rise of right wing populist parties coming to power under spurious pretenses and this will weaken the overall influence of the  West  and its successful and sustainable ideology 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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To me, it's more all these Muslims and/or Arabs flee their countries and with good reason.. and then many of them go to the 'hateful'  West then often try to change them to be more like the country they fled.

 

Also, if you fled a country because it was persecuting you ... why would you flee to a country that you claim hates and per4secutes you. DOES. MAKE SENSE.

 

Then again, let's look at what European 'Islamophobes' are often accused of doing: 'saying mean things to Muslims on buses'.

 

This is what happens in Islamic countries; Muslims mass murder muslims.

 

 

Hmm.. So, my question who is REALLY Islamophobic?

DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250.

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Hah -  I was expecting something like this from Poland, but it seems Slovakia takes the torch

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/e4b69b26-4de2-3c7d-a21f-516b44ef14a3/ss_christian-slovakia-passes-law.html

 

 

Sensationalist reporting.

 

 

 

Parliament adopted a bill sponsored by the Slovak National Party (SNS), junior member in Fico's coalition, that requires a religion to have at least 50,000 members, up from 20,000, to qualify for state subsidies and to run its own schools.

The change will make it much harder to register Islam, which has just 2,000 adherents in Slovakia according to the last census and no recognised mosques.

 

That's all they did. So yes, they are blocking them through a technicality, but they haven't banned anything.

 

 

Other than that, what is there to say? Slovaks didn't sleep through history class? Or maybe they've just been watched one documentary on France and concluded "me no likey".

Edited by Drowsy Emperor

И погибе Српски кнез Лазаре,
И његова сва изгибе војска, 
Седамдесет и седам иљада;
Све је свето и честито било
И миломе Богу приступачно.

 

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It's good to have populists rule in as many insignificant Yuroppan countries as possible, after they screw up they will just fade into obscurity.

 

Thought that too but after the FPÖ dismantled itself in Austria back in the early 00s they seem to be coming back hard these days.

 

Come to think of it they should actually be a poster-case for what happens when right wing populists are given any sort of responsibility. Scandals, corruption and racking up more combined debt than all the Austrian governments with at least nominal left-wing participation before them could even dream of.

 

In other words, they are... or end up being... politicians, in the end. Who would have thought? Heh.

Give me the eyes, so I see
Give me ears, so I hear
Give me love, so I know what love is
Give me freedom to think, to believe
In something
                        -- Tony Kakko

 

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