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To what extend do we (Germany) have communism (overstating it on purpose)?


Ben No.3

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Upon comparing Marx 10 points from his manifesto with Germany's market as it is today, I have to say I was rather surprised as to help much actually was implemented. I'll explain. Please note that I read the manifesto on German, so terminology might be off.

 

1. Expropriation of all land

Okay, we don't have that. Marx' claims probably originated in the fact of how much power German landlords did hold at the time.

 

2. Steeply ascending income tax

We have that... In Germany, taxes rises proportionally with income, and those with high income (as in from upper middle class upward) will be charged almost 50% income tax.

 

3. No inherent wealth

Well, not to the full extend. But to be honest, inherent wealth is pretty highly taxed in Germany. 50% or so I believe.

 

4. Confiscation of all property of emigrants and rebels

No. This is a rather weird one.... If anyone knows where this comes from please tell me.

 

5. Creation of a national central bank with monopoly on credit.

Many countries do have a central bank, but the monopoly aspect does not apply.

 

6. Govermental monopoly on all means of transportation

To some extend. Definitely much more in the 70s, but even now many aspects of transportation are run by goverment

 

7. More national factories, creation of more farming land

Again, to some extent. Obviously, the vast majority of firms are run privately, but for example, as mentioned, large parts of transport are completely run by government. Also, for example the state Niedersachsen owns large parts of Volkswagen. Then of course social and health insurance. So, there are few, but more than one might think.

 

8. Duty to work for all, creation of "workforce armies", especially for agricultural purposes

No. Again, a rather odd one.

 

9. Unification of agricultural and industrial workforce, working towards equality between city and countryside

No, not really. There is still a string urbanisation going on.

 

10. Public and free education of children, abolishment of child labour.

Yeah, we got those.

 

Just thought it was rather interesting to see... If Marx would spend some time in today's Germany he'd probably be proud of all the progress ;)

And to be honest, most countries have more Marxist elements in them than one might think.

 

What I'm trying to demonstrate is that we should go away from stigmas. We don't need to choose between different systems, we take the best of all. Of course Germany is a free market economy, but I think the little fun I had with the 10 points show how good ideas that might seem opposing at first can actually be implemented into society. :)

 

DISCLAIMER: This is apparently hard for people to understand: I realise that Germany is not Marxist, communist or socialist. I am not looking at the systems Marx wishes to set in place, I'm looking at the reasons why he wanted these systems. And even then, this is more of a joke that should provoce thinking outside the box, to not to only look at what someone wrote but to analyse it and think wether they'd like different systems throughout time, such as today's. Is it really that hard to understand?

Edited by Ben No.3
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Not at all.

 

A liberal welfare state is in no way synonymous with Marxism or communism. Marx himself criticized the limitations of the social welfare supported by Bismark and the like.

 

To quote myself the last time you brought this up:

 

 

Well I think if Marx was alive today he'd be pretty satisfied with Germany's state

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own.

 

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The question is wether Marxism is a timeless philosophy, and to be honest, I don't think so. Marx was heavily influenced by the time he lived in, I highly doubt his opinions would be anywhere near as extrem if he would be around today.

 

The industrial revolution was a time of extreme inequality, so obviously Marx put a extreme system up against. Do you really expect a completely new thinker to come of with a perfect system right away? Ideas take generations to fully develop... And during this time, the parts raft don't hold up get dropped, but the parts that are considered good are kept. And workers rights and protection of the working class essentially is a rather good idea, don't you think?

 

But if we reduce Marxism down to its values, which is why I chose these points, it really isn't all to different from what we have today. Marx has been one of history's most influential thinkers far more than you might think.

Don't be fooled, pure capitalism doesn't work either because similarly to how communism would I require selfless people, capitalism would require rational people. There is no such thing as a purley capitalistic society.

Edited by Ben No.3

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Also, note that the intention of the post was not to show that Germany is Marxist (which is simply wrong), but rather to point out that our systems are a mixture of the best of several systems, and no ideas should simply be tossed aside, I chose communism because ppl tend to be somewhat against that (for whatever reason ;) ), and so it would be easy to show what I mean.

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Not at all.

 

A liberal welfare state is in no way synonymous with Marxism or communism. Marx himself criticized the limitations of the social welfare supported by Bismark and the like.

 

To quote myself the last time you brought this up:

 

 

 

Well I think if Marx was alive today he'd be pretty satisfied with Germany's state

Only a liberal would be able to toss aside a person's entire life's work and hijack them as one of their own.
What I meant by that post was not that we live in a society according to Marx teachings, but that our society is close enough to Marx believes that he would not have a reason to really "complain" to the same extend... We have come a long way, and we have come faaaar closer to what Marx would I consider a fair society than industrial Europe was. Edited by Ben No.3

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

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https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm

 

Please read what the actually man wrote before making a fool of yourself.

"TL;DR: Schlongs make you catch the gay and are too woke." - majestic

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Please read what I said... If we reduce it down to its values. I know about that, but if you would please try not to think "Marx wrote that" but rather "Marx wrote that, but probably because of the time he lived in."

 

And besides, does anyone read what I write? Obviously Germany is not communist or Marxist, but my point is that the (let's call it that) reason why Marx came up with communism mostly does not really exist anymore. It's just a little thought experiment: would Marx write anything if he was alive today? To be honest, I think the answer is no, for the reasons I stated.

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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What are you guys talking about?

 

- Marx's letter for Communism in America?

- The Demands pf the Communists in Germany?

- The Draft of Communist Confession of Faith?

- The Principles of Communism?

 

https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/pdf/Manifesto.pdf

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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You seems awfully obsessed with Marx if you ask me

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Jeez Ben you are becoming a real One-Trick-Pony here. I'll sum it up simply. Suppose you work as an independent carpenter. Does the German government own the trees the lumber comes from? No. Does it own the mill that cuts them? No. Does it own your business and assign you work to do? No. That's all privately owned and the proceeds of each enterprise is taxed to one extent or another. That is not even a little bit communist.

 

Glad I could be of assistance!  

"While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before"

Thomas Sowell

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The question is wether Marxism is a timeless philosophy, and to be honest, I don't think so. Marx was heavily influenced by the time he lived in, I highly doubt his opinions would be anywhere near as extrem if he would be around today.

 

The industrial revolution was a time of extreme inequality, so obviously Marx put a extreme system up against. Do you really expect a completely new thinker to come of with a perfect system right away? Ideas take generations to fully develop... And during this time, the parts raft don't hold up get dropped, but the parts that are considered good are kept. And workers rights and protection of the working class essentially is a rather good idea, don't you think?

 

But if we reduce Marxism down to its values, which is why I chose these points, it really isn't all to different from what we have today. Marx has been one of history's most influential thinkers far more than you might think.

Don't be fooled, pure capitalism doesn't work either because similarly to how communism would I require selfless people, capitalism would require rational people. There is no such thing as a purley capitalistic society.

Bennie I appreciate the effort you putting into these types of posts. Im not sure why some  people who dont agree with what you say have to be rude or dismissive..just ignore them :)

 

So for me  the discussion around ideology should be kept simple. I consider Marxism, Socialism ( Cuba style ) Communism and other similar ideologies to all have the same problems. They dont work or rather they dont sustain or allow for real economic growth

 

You must  read this book  https://www.abebooks.com/Civilization-West-Rest-Niall-Ferguson-Lane/20784218654/bd?gclid=CODYpJ3y1dACFUG7Gwod69cC6g

 

Niall Ferguson is one of the worlds most respected and prominent historians and he answers the question  " why did the West win the Cold War "

 

In summary no Communist\Socialist society can match the economic output of a Capitalist driven economy

 

So when we discuss alternative systems of government in the year 2016 the most relevant question should be something like " can you match the economic output of the free market " 

 

History tells us so far this is not possible so Capitalism is the best system to drive any economy. After the 2008  crisis all Western countries and the various private sector industries recognize there is no such thing as " pure Capitalism " so you correct with that view

 

So we now have countries like the USA which are hybrid economies where the private sector does drive the economy but government is also involved around good governance and ensuring compliance in sectors like the banking sector. The CEO of Goldman Sachs summarizes this 

 

http://money.cnn.com/2015/02/24/investing/lloyd-blankfein-china-capitalism-goldman-sachs/

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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"The concept of the social market economy received fundamental impulses from reflection and critique of historical economic and social orders, namely Smithian laissez-faire liberalism on the one hand and Marxian socialism on the other."

-Wikipedia on social market economy, which is in place in Germany

 

Told you so(?) ;)

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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