So Two Handed Weapons

[AeonsLegend]

I tried to like them. I tried using them, but stat wise they don't really look that great. I mean a Two Handed Sword has only 1 damage more than a Sabre. The extra passive is +15% damage. Is it even worth having a big slow weapon that deals the same amount of damage as a one handed weapon that can be dual wielded for faster attacks or single handed for extra accuracy and crit chance?

 

What am I missing?

[JerekKruger]

Well, in the 3.04 patch Sabres damage is going down, so the difference will get larger. Also two-handers can, on certain classes, reach 0 recovery (or close enough that it makes almost no difference), and once you reach this point, the extra speed from dual wielding counts for naught (attack speed doesn't help you beyond 0 recovery). Finally remember to include damage reduction in your calculation: suppose a one-hander does 10 damage and a two-hander does 11 damage, that's just a 10% boost, but if the target has 8DR then the one-hander does 2 damage and the two-hander does 3 damage, which is now a 50% boost.

 

But yes, in many cases using two one-handed weapons is better, particularly for classes who have lots of full attack abilities and/or can't get close to 0 recovery naturally. All I'd say is that PoE isn't so difficult as to make optimisation matter, so if like the idea of using a two-handed sword then I'll do it even if it's a little less optimal and I'll still beat the game.

[Boeroer]

Yes, the 3.04 patch will change how people see 2handers.

 

At the moment the only disadvantage of sabres is their single damage type. And you can go around that by using Bittercut.

 

2handers have some of the best uniques because you can get them early and they have some nice enchantments (Hours of St. Rumbalt, Tidefall, Blade of the EP, Tall Grass etc.). Esp. great swords with their 2 damage types are good. But the high base damage of sabres and the ability to dual wield them and therefore get +50% speed as well as Full Attacks is obviously better. Also using a shield while having nearly the same damage or using one handed style is better - if you don't look at uniques but only judge the plain base weapon.

 

When sabres' damage will be changed from higher base to a mere +20% bonus, 2handers will be a real alternative. The difference in damage per hit between dual wielding swords and using a great sword is very obvious - especially against enemies with high DR. +20% damage is a lot weaker than higher base damage - especially if you have a lot of damage mods like rogues, ciphers or fighters have.

 

But atm sabres are the best option for DPS.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

What am I missing?

 

A durganized Blade of the Endless Paths with a lash and a potion of DAOM

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know, I know ... tired old song and all XD

[Raven Darkholme]

edit: I'm an idiot.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Raven Darkholme

[Boeroer]

Eh? Do Time Parasite and Alacrity stack?

[Raven Darkholme]

Whoops, maybe I should have tested it before spouting nonsense.

I assumed since it doesn't show suppressed if you hover your mouse over the character and since it does 2 different effects (attack speed steal and straight out buff) it wouldn't suppress each other which is partly true but the part about 50% attack speed is suppressed, my bad.

At least by jumping ingame and testing it on GM I can confirm she also rocks with tidefall even tho slightly less than with dual bittercut.

[Boeroer]

Hehe. Too bad wounding doesn't generate focus. Did you ever test Firebrand + Scion of Flame with a cipher? Maybe combined with Myth Fyr from a chanter? The focus gain should be good...

[Raven Darkholme]

Hehe. Too bad wounding doesn't generate focus. Did you ever test Firebrand + Scion of Flame with a cipher? Maybe combined with Myth Fyr from a chanter? The focus gain should be good...

I didn't yet but I might test it a little later.

I looked at firebrand not too long ago, but I don't like it hitting reflex since most dragons have quite low deflection compared to reflex (Adra has slightly higher def but both almost the same, one of the Bog dragons has insane deflection, but you can charm that one)

Once I switch to melee my focus built is insane anyway, especially as soon as I have Time parasite, I've almost stopped going for reaping knives but it's good fun against less squishy targets, I just can't spend the focus anymore.

Main "problem" is focus build before mindweb, but I have a ****ty exceptional arquebus and I don't wanna go pistol cuz range.

It's still not a problem since worst case scenario I have 75+ish focus and one melee strike easily builds enough.

[Boeroer]

Firebrand doesnt target reflex anymore, that was changed in 2.03 or so.

[Raven Darkholme]

It doesn't?

I can't seem to find the corresponding patch notes, does it target deflection now?

[Boeroer]

Yarp  Have a look at the ingame weapon description.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Boeroer

[Raven Darkholme]

Yarp  Have a look at the ingame weapon description.

Haven't been to Def Bay in a while but I will give firebrand a go, I have 200k anyway and since I haven't been to Cragholdt yet that seems like a nice and underleveled place (I'm maxed lol) to test out stuff.

[Raven Darkholme]

So I tested Firebrand on Crägholdt map and I'm sorry to be blunt but it sucks.

Damage isn't higher than bittercut, but since I neither respecced for flame damage talent nor had flame damage chant on I'm sure that can be changed.

My main beef with it is the accuracy, which dropped to 75 from 98 I had before.

Ofc I also didn't have 0 recovery and might I add also quite slow recovery in comparison to for example the Blade from the endless path.

[Jojobobo]

I think Tidefall is one of the best weapons in the game, easily. In terms of two damage types on weapons, all one-handed swords are naff, but some war hammers are good - but none of them have anywhere near as good enchantments. Bittercut is great, but again the big nerf is coming, so it will be not near as good as it was before.

 

Tidefall is (a) high damage to bust through DR, unlike dual wielding, (b) wounding so even if the dual wield isn't good enough, consistently damaging © drains and restores endurance, (d) has the two damage types to consistently deal damage and (e) is both legendary-izable and additional lash-able at the same time. In terms of what a weapon offers, it's perfect.

 

The Hours of St. Rumbalt is also one of my favourite weapons in terms of design. I picked it up before Defiance Bay and yet it has accuracy equal to a Superb enchantment meaning more crits, and those crits deliver higher damage due to Annihilation and also make people Prone which is extremely easy to chain. I did better damage with St. Rumbalt than with Tidefall, but Tidefall still edges because of Wounding more than anything.

 

I think people playing this game are way too much obsessed with DPS from playing the likes aRPGS such as the Diablo franchise to get the system is much more nuanced and weapons which can punch through DR are also worth consideration over high rates of attack. I also think the main trouble is very few two handers are worth it other than great swords, which I think is the main issue with two handers going into 3.04. To say, at least for great swords, two handers going into 3.04 aren't worthy I don't think is true.

 

PS You can get Tidefall with Mechanics two. I got Gloves of Manipulation from Raedric's Hold day 4 from the lists (which I know some people have trouble replicating some of the time, but from my many playthroughs that got through Act I I don't), you get +2 from the Artificer's Hall, you get +1 from Gfeja's Boon and I think you can get a guaranteed scroll of +3 Mechanics from the Vailian Embassy (either that, or I'm very lucky). So long as you have 4 Lore for the scroll, getting it is extremely easy, with literally no optimisation. I know, I'm a filthy meta-gamer, but in any case you're welcome 

Edited October 22, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Raven Darkholme]

I love Tidefall, just tested it the other day.

I don't really mind having slight recovery and doing less damage, since with my ciphers awesome attack speed the stacking wounding is pretty amazing.

Tidefall might actually be better vs dragons than bittercut.

[Boeroer]

I like Hours of St. Rumbalt a lot. The combination of annihilation and overbearing and the high ACC makes it one of the best weapons for crit based builds.  But Tidefall is also very nice. WF Soldier has all the good stuff: Tall Grass, Godansthunyr, Shatterstar, Strike Hard - even The Temparacl is good. You can easily equip a party with soldier weapons only and will not gimp yourself in any way.  

[Raven Darkholme]

St. Rumbalt is something I will definitely test, when I have both Instinct and Parasite crits happen to fast to count.

Thx for the tip.

[JerekKruger]

Whilst it's indisputable that, amongst two-handers, Great Swords have the widest selection of good weapons available early, there are some pretty good options in amongst other types of two-handers. The Blade of the Endless Paths is one of two two-handers with the Speed enchant, and is the better of the two. Mabec's Morning is the only two-hander with the Stunning enchant and its other enchants aren't bad (Slaying (Wilder) is obviously situational); Daybreak has Destroys Spirits so can be used similarly to St. Ydwen's Redeemer (though it's available a lot later); and Acuan Giamas has the great Wounding enchant and the fairly unique and interesting Spellchance enchant. For Pikes we have Tall Grass, which is generally good and particularly good in a Barbarian's hands. It starts getting less good when we get to Pollaxe's: if Traitor's Merit had Overbearing then it would have an amazing synergy but as it is you're relying on others sources to provide the afflictions; at first glance, Half-Mast is a sort of poor man's Tall Grass, but at least it has two damage types; and the WInd's Arm is... I don't really know. Quarterstaves are probably the most lacking, with no truly standout weapons, but Llawran's Stick is at least decent with the Speed enchant.

[Boeroer]

It's a shame that all the good morning stars either come WAY to late or you have to be lucky to get them. I mean a unique weapon in the pit of no return, come on...

 

Acuan Giamas is one of the best weapons in the game. It is so much fun to use it with a rogue: escape to a backline caster, hit him and eventually steal spells. If you do, stop hitting the guy (because if he dies your spells will be gone) and cast damaging spells nonstop with Deathblows. If you can't steal, the wounding makes short work of any enemy anyway. Also works very well on a fighter with Charge & Disciplined Barrage: crits with spell guaranteed. Imagine this weapon against the Hunting Lodge bounty.

Mabec's is also very nice - but I did a TON of playthroughs and got it only twice.

 

Pikes: besides Tall Grass the assortment is quite meh. But Tall Grass is great and it can be obtained early, so ok.

 

Estocs: all unique estocs are great in some way. The Blade is obviously good, Drake's Bell can be brought to insane DR bypass per hit and has an unusual burn DR bonus that stacks with everything and The White Spire has Spell Bindings (which is always good) and Disorienting. And it looks so good!

 

Pollaxes: I agree. Although there are some nice specimen they also come too late. Wind's Arm is good if you have an interrupting barb and/or a blast wizard in the party and stand by their side. A chanter with "The Champion braved the Horde alone" and the "Thick grew their Tongues" phrase combined with this and most enemies ate interrupt-locked in an AoE.

 

Quarterstaffs: also really sad. Llawran's Stick is ok because it comes early and Durance's Staff is also nice because of the two damage types and the lash it comes with. But then it's over. No overbearing staff (would have been fitting), no interfering staff (dito) only that really lame Wendwalker. It's the opposite as with Morning Stars: the good ones come very early and then there's nothing. 

Edited October 23, 2016 by Boeroer

[AeonsLegend]

How do you get 0 recovery with a 2 handed weapon?

[Raven Darkholme]

Right now only possible with the blade of the endless paths + durgan + either Alacrity or similar class specific buffs like Time parasite.

I'm not quite sure what max dex would add to the equasion tho, since the char I tried it with was GM and she "only" has 16 base dex.

Maybe with 20+ Dex you can do it with other weapons.

[Boeroer]

Depends on the class. With a wizard you can use Deleterious Alacrity (1.5), Gauntlets of Swift Action (1.15), Durgan Steel (1.15) and you are already near 0. Those speed modifiers get multiplied, not added - so every tiny bit more helps a lot. In this case it's 1.5 * 1.15 * 1.15 = 1.98 where 2 would mean 0 recovery. If you now have a weapon with speed like the Blade of the Endless Paths you can even multiply this with 1.2 and be at 2.38. That means you could even wear durganized plate (-0.35) and be > 2 which still means no recovery.

 

A fighter with access to Alacrity (potion, spell bind item) could even wear durganized plate AND use Vulnerable Attack and reach 2. But this is only possible with the speed enchantment. Other 2 handed weapons will still have a tiny bit of recovery with a wizard, but it's not really noticable.

 

Those speed penalties get substracted instead of multiplied by the way - I know - it's totally intuitive.

 

A chanter can do this with the Champion invocation, but since it only speeds you up with 1.4 instead of 1.5 he will not reach the speed of a wizard, but close.

 

A barbarian can use Frenzy (1.33) and stack it with Bloodlust (1.2). That way he's even faster than a wizard and doesn't need a speed enchantment on a two hander to reach 0 recovery.

Although that is a bit circumstanctial. With Frenzy only he's also pretty close. And he also has Blood Thirst which nullifies recovery after a kill.

 

A cipher can use Time Parasite as a wizard uses Alacrity. Both do 1.5.

 

A ranger can use Swift Aim, but since it's 1.2 only he will not reach 0 recovery with two handers - not even with the speed enchantment.

 

Same with a monk's Swift Strikes (1.25)

 

All others have to use Outlander's Frenzy or potions to get near 0 recovery with a two hander. A potion of Alacrity always helps.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Boeroer

[Boeroer]

Right now only possible with the blade of the endless paths + durgan + either Alacrity or similar class specific buffs like Time parasite.

I'm not quite sure what max dex would add to the equasion tho, since the char I tried it with was GM and she "only" has 16 base dex.

Maybe with 20+ Dex you can do it with other weapons.

DEX can never lead you to 0 recovery. DEX gets applied after all the attack speed mods got calculated. If you already have 0 recovery it does nothing for your recovery any more. If you have recovery left it will dininish it but can never put it to 0.

[AeonsLegend]

Hm, that doesn't sound all that effective for sustained fights. I'm currently playing a Barbarian on PotD and Frenzy only lasts as long as a sneeze with 18 intelligence. Fights last way way longer than that, because these ****ty PotD enemies have DR from 16-40.