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Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?


Ben No.3

United States of Europe?  

41 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the EU become one single nation?

    • Yes, it should
      7
    • Yes, but EU members who don't want to participate should still be part of the EU as it exists now
      2
    • No, not right now
      1
    • No, the EU members should become closer to each other but not a single nation
      9
    • No, I oppose the idea of a EU nation
      12
    • No, and I don't support the EU in the first place
      10


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Direct democracy is when the people themselves decide much more. For example they elect the president, and they may be more referendums. Pro: most democratic form con: the fate of the state lies in the hand of the people, which isn't necessarily the best thing (trump for example)

facepalm.jpg.

direct democracy = only referendums

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_democracy

elect the president = representative democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Representative_democracy

 

Direct democracy is only true democracy - and this democracy don't exist in modern world. Representative "democracy" is actually Oligarchy in Roman republic style.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy

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So what do you prefer? Personally, I think there is a too big danger in direct democracy, so I prefer parliamentary. :)

To be honest because of the history of Apartheid South Africa isn't a good example of a functional parliamentary system as we are dealing with some historical challanges that tend to create certain negative political dynamics ...so I dont know whats best ?
Weimar (Germany after WWI and before Hitler) was parliamentary as well and failed horribly... Don't let history interfere your judgement Edited by Ben No.3
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Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Thanks for your support :) but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Yeah UN successful war on hunger created population boom in countries where illiteracy is over 50%. Good job

 

(sorry I know its pretty negative view but its reality)

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Thanks for your support :) but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Yeah UN successful war on hunger created population boom in countries where illiteracy is over 50%. Good job

 

(sorry I know its pretty negative view but its reality)

 

Yes but the UN still does more good in the world than bad. if the UN didnt exist or was dissolved we would have much more global strife and insecurity throughout the world 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Thanks for your support :) but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Yeah UN successful war on hunger created population boom in countries where illiteracy is over 50%. Good job

 

(sorry I know its pretty negative view but its reality)

 

Yes but the UN still does more good in the world than bad. if the UN didnt exist or was dissolved we would have much more global strife and insecurity throughout the world

 

Are you talking about same UN where guy from SA is responsible for human rights? xD

 

Listen, I agree that UN done nice things, it doesn't always mean they are good

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Thanks for your support :) but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Yeah UN successful war on hunger created population boom in countries where illiteracy is over 50%. Good job

 

(sorry I know its pretty negative view but its reality)

 

Yes but the UN still does more good in the world than bad. if the UN didnt exist or was dissolved we would have much more global strife and insecurity throughout the world

 

Are you talking about same UN where guy from SA is responsible for human rights? xD

 

Listen, I agree that UN done nice things, it doesn't always mean they are good

 

What guy from SA?

 

Well the UN  has a structural " issue" around the veto in UNSC but the veto swings both ways and there is real consensus at times where we see a positive outcome like the Iran sanctions 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Obviously UN isn't perfect, but especially in comparison to the League of Nations, it does a pretty good job.

  • Like 1

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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Thanks for your support :) but it seems same goes for the UN... Everyone knows it's problems, no one talks about its somewhat successful war on hunger, the successes of WHO and UNICEF...

Yeah UN successful war on hunger created population boom in countries where illiteracy is over 50%. Good job

 

(sorry I know its pretty negative view but its reality)

 

Yes but the UN still does more good in the world than bad. if the UN didnt exist or was dissolved we would have much more global strife and insecurity throughout the world

 

Are you talking about same UN where guy from SA is responsible for human rights? xD

 

Listen, I agree that UN done nice things, it doesn't always mean they are good

 

What guy from SA?

 

Well the UN  has a structural " issue" around the veto in UNSC but the veto swings both ways and there is real consensus at times where we see a positive outcome like the Iran sanctions

 

In September 2015, Faisal bin Hassan Trad, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the UN in Geneva, has been elected Chair of the United Nations Human Rights Council panel that appoints independent experts.[121][122] UN Watch executive director Hillel Neuer said: "It is scandalous that the UN chose a country that has beheaded more people this year than ISIS to be head of a key human rights panel. Petro-dollars and politics have trumped human rights."[123] In January 2016, Saudi Arabia executed the prominent Shia cleric Sheikh Nimr who had called for free elections in Saudi Arabia.[124]

 

What a joke UN is

Edited by Chilloutman

I'm the enemy, 'cause I like to think, I like to read. I'm into freedom of speech, and freedom of choice. I'm the kinda guy that likes to sit in a greasy spoon and wonder, "Gee, should I have the T-bone steak or the jumbo rack of barbecue ribs with the side-order of gravy fries?" I want high cholesterol! I wanna eat bacon, and butter, and buckets of cheese, okay?! I wanna smoke a Cuban cigar the size of Cincinnati in the non-smoking section! I wanna run naked through the street, with green Jell-O all over my body, reading Playboy magazine. Why? Because I suddenly may feel the need to, okay, pal? I've SEEN the future. Do you know what it is? It's a 47-year-old virgin sitting around in his beige pajamas, drinking a banana-broccoli shake, singing "I'm an Oscar Meyer Wiene"

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Yes, the UN has some flaws. Some heavy ones to. But I'd rather have a flawed UN that also produces some good than no UN at all.

Everybody knows the deal is rotten

Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton

For your ribbons and bows

And everybody knows

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I'm surprised by all the yes votes, to be honest.  Not many of us in the US prefer Federal power over State.  I'm all for more unity and working together, but I would be hesitant to give up individuality.  

Yes, this is the biggest social obstacle we need to overcome in the USA

 

The ideal US outcome for less political unhappiness is a view where the majority of Americans understand that at times Federal involvement is necessary to achieve a more stable and fair society. Lets be honest how many states would have allowed gay marriage by now if it wasn't for the Supreme court ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I'm surprised by all the yes votes, to be honest.  Not many of us in the US prefer Federal power over State.  I'm all for more unity and working together, but I would be hesitant to give up individuality.  

What defines a country really. Is it language or cultural differences because those aren't that great in Europe. I think narrowly local entities, counties, burrows, whatever you want to call them should have a large degree of self control. Beyond that you need a central authority to take care of common interests, education, policing, defence, healthcare and so on. 

 

Nations when they project self interest towards their competitors are harmful entities, they should be done away with. We should be thinking ahead, toward the subjugation of space and the enslavement of alien species. 

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Na na  na na  na na  ...

greg358 from Darksouls 3 PVP is a CHEATER.

That is all.

 

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I'm surprised by all the yes votes, to be honest.  Not many of us in the US prefer Federal power over State.  I'm all for more unity and working together, but I would be hesitant to give up individuality.  

What defines a country really. Is it language or cultural differences because those aren't that great in Europe. I think narrowly local entities, counties, burrows, whatever you want to call them should have a large degree of self control. Beyond that you need a central authority to take care of common interests, education, policing, defence, healthcare and so on. 

 

Nations when they project self interest towards their competitors are harmful entities, they should be done away with. We should be thinking ahead, toward the subjugation of space and the enslavement of alien species. 

 

I would say your love of cheese must be a binding factor throughout the EU ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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No! I wouldn't mind Norway joining a "United States of Scandinavia" though. Or wait, yes I actually would - Swedes are pretty intolerable.

Swedes intolerable? You joking right ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I'm surprised by all the yes votes, to be honest.  Not many of us in the US prefer Federal power over State.  I'm all for more unity and working together, but I would be hesitant to give up individuality.  

 

 

Do you give up different amounts of individuality depending on whether on most of the power is with state government or whether it is with federal government?

 

In my experience you are just comparing one set of more or less corrupt politicians with another similar set. Whether those politicians sit 800 miles away from you or 3000 miles away doesn't affect all that much of your daily life.

 

That idea of states rights vs the federal government is similar to the argument espoused in the UK regarding Brexit and it's completely spurious. The politicians in London don't represent the rights of people in Cardiff any better than the politicians in Brussels.

 

Local power is a big part of the constitution in Portugal, and it didn't make a single bit of difference towards the lives of ordinary people, unless to those few ordinary people that somehow got into elected office. In that case the difference was corruption. What local power means is local, hard to curtail corruption. For evidence of this look at American small towns, football and rape, for example.

 

No! I wouldn't mind Norway joining a "United States of Scandinavia" though. Or wait, yes I actually would - Swedes are pretty intolerable.

 

Swedes are awesome man. By the way, one of my downstairs neighbors is from Bergen.

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No! I wouldn't mind Norway joining a "United States of Scandinavia" though. Or wait, yes I actually would - Swedes are pretty intolerable.

Swedes intolerable? You joking right ?

 

Yeah, we have a friendly rivalry. They are not as awesome as danes though. It's kind of funny, even though the Scandinavian countries are very similar - I still see danes as laid back and fun, and swedes as extreme in their opinions, overly proud, etc. Stereotypess and all that jazz.

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Just take a look at America and how we deal with "differences" and the poor to get an idea on how the USoE would handle.

When you say differences do you mean the current political rift in the USA?

Yes and no, I'm talking about the whole time.

Indians, Chinese, Irish, Blacks, LGBT, Poor, different political parties, Japanese, Religions other than Christianity, just to name off the top of my head.

The Asians and the Irish aren't as bad off anymore (thanks to the Irish being the first ones to form the mafia and the Asians not holding a grudge), but the rest is still a big problem in some cases and have seen attacks and discrimination against the rest in my life time and still cases today.

 

I dunno why the blacks are still discriminated against but I have a feeling it's because of the Democratic Party and votes, and since they ain't contributing as much as they used to, it's not the illegal immigrants that have become their new meal ticket.

The poor will always because they can't/won't contribute to the overall ideal of parties.

The LGBT have in the past because they were considered a "dead end" vote since a lot wouldn't be able to have kids and keep the votes going so there was no need to interrupt what the going religious/culture stipulation.

Christianity isn't the national "official" religion but with the majority of the people who do religion follow that, it's widely accepted as the standard. Having religions that are similiar are usually accepted as okay, but something drastically different or "violent" isn't and meets with opposition.

 

Our country isn't what people think it is or as great as it is. It's good and I love it, but we are in no ways perfect and still an experiment that's evolving and seems like DEvolving. I think worse case is that we are trying to make EVERYONE happy and u know what happens when u try to do that

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http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0405/6307082a.html

 

article is 1999, but is more relevant today.  'stead o' eu forming a US, britain would benefit economically from joining the existing USA... perhaps add poland as well... and maybe buy greenland from denmark.

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...
No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...
 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...
No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...
 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

Have you ever been to Germany? We learned from our mistakes (we finally did), and we were able to create a country with all the bad outcomes in mind, so we figured out ways how to avoid them the best way possible. And while the Germans were certainly awful people in the past, I think it's safe to say we managed to create a pretty good country. But do prove me wrong

 

 

Yes, you have denied yourselves an identity to such a degree that you have to forge a new one of Europa instead where everyone has to join. Snap out of it already as the current talisman of human rights and tolerance is a very, very weak one. Read Heinrich Heine's poem about christianity to see what i am talking about. 

 

I have been to Germany several times, both on business and on vacation from Berlin to Oberstdorf. 

"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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i'm in favor of 2 opposite choices. either make USE and remove completely national interests from EU policies or revert back to the pre-euro mode of EU where each country had financial autonomy and EU wide policies were not as intrusive.

we have been in the middle ground for almost 15 years and it doesn't work... things just keep getting worse

Edited by teknoman2

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

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But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...
No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...
 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...
No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...
 

Am I only one getting a laugh out of this? Through out history the German people conquered Europe one way or the other, but now suddenly they claim to not exist and that national borders are just an organizational problem, but effectively it would still result in Germania being created, even in a crypto-state. "Wir schaffen das!", indeed.

 

Go to bed, Merkel, you're drunk.

Have you ever been to Germany? We learned from our mistakes (we finally did), and we were able to create a country with all the bad outcomes in mind, so we figured out ways how to avoid them the best way possible. And while the Germans were certainly awful people in the past, I think it's safe to say we managed to create a pretty good country. But do prove me wrong

 

 

Yes, you have denied yourselves an identity to such a degree that you have to forge a new one of Europa instead where everyone has to join. Snap out of it already as the current talisman of human rights and tolerance is a very, very weak one. Read Heinrich Heine's poem about christianity to see what i am talking about. 

 

I have been to Germany several times, both on business and on vacation from Berlin to Oberstdorf. 

 

 

This post is utter nonsense and hyperbole......Meshugger do you realize without Germany you have NO EU?

 

Think about that concept, no Germany no EU

 

What do you mean when you say  " denied yourselves an identity" ....what identity did they deny?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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http://www.forbes.com/forbes/1999/0405/6307082a.html

 

article is 1999, but is more relevant today.  'stead o' eu forming a US, britain would benefit economically from joining the existing USA... perhaps add poland as well... and maybe buy greenland from denmark.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Make Sharp_One an American? Do it. Keep Britain out though. 

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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