Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[Ben No.3]

"Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?"

 

I could. I believe in PERSONAL responsibility. I am not responsibie for what my parents did - good or bad. I am responsible for what *I* do - good or bad.

 

CAPICHE!?!

It's not about responsibility. Obviously it's not your fault. But could you easily live with the possibility that your (grand)father might have spend years murdering Jews in a gas chamber? Could you deal with the fact that your (grand)parents might have been part of one of humanities greatest tragedies? That your grandparents are the people children will ask teachers about how anybody could ever do such a thing? Could you live with that thought? Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Volourn]

Yes. Because, again, I didn't do anything wrong. It is not complex. Personal repso9nsibility matters to me as much as freedom does because they go hand and hand. That doesn't mean I don't feel bad for the victims. I surely do but I don't feel guilty. No more guilty than if a family member commited some heinous crime today.  I mean, let's give a make believe example. If my brother commited a robbery today I wouldn't feel guilt. I'd feel bad for the victims. And, I'd probably feel annoyed by the two types of people who I'd have to deal with. a) the tools who would blame me for my brother's actions like it is somehow my fault when it isn't or b) The ones who felt sorry for me for having a brother who would do such a thing. Both groups or  scumbag pieces of crap who don'\t believe in freedom, and personal choice.

 

 

I'm a firm believer of the 'the sins of the father are not the sins of the son'. I don't believe in the 'I'm my brother's keeper' nonsense.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Volourn

[Ben No.3]

Well... My problem is not guilt... I am simply disgusted

[Namutree]

image.jpeg

It's a very popular photo, but it's still effective.... What you see is a pile of glasses. The victims were forced to undress before being gased, and their belongings where piled up. So, every pair of glasses must have belonged to someone, right? Those are a lot of glasses, wouldn't you agree? Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?

Yes.

[Darkpriest]

 

It's not a good idea. I like freedom, but I also like cultural diversity and EU heritage. I think that a lot of it is being already lost, and even more would if we would become USE. It's not going to work, because of one simple reason. Which language would you use as the state one and why?

English, because it is already established as am international language in Europe. But look for example at Switzerland... They have three different languages in one country as well and are up and running.

Culturally speaking, the USE would be quite a challenge. But nothing that can not be done

 

 

Actually it's not, the formal languages in EU are English, French and German IIRC, but that was established at the start of the EU, around 50 years ago, now you have more countries and they could say they want their language to be official as well.

[Ben No.3]

I mean as in most people speak it already

[Darkpriest]

I mean as in most people speak it already

 

Arguably I would say that in EU more people speak German than English.

[Meshugger]

image.jpeg

It's a very popular photo, but it's still effective.... What you see is a pile of glasses. The victims were forced to undress before being gased, and their belongings where piled up. So, every pair of glasses must have belonged to someone, right? Those are a lot of glasses, wouldn't you agree? Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?

 

Still not getting it. No sane person celebrates the misery of others but what you're doing is trying to guilt-trip others for something that they had no part of. Being paranoid about what you can joke about just makes things worse.  

[Ben No.3]

 

image.jpeg

It's a very popular photo, but it's still effective.... What you see is a pile of glasses. The victims were forced to undress before being gased, and their belongings where piled up. So, every pair of glasses must have belonged to someone, right? Those are a lot of glasses, wouldn't you agree? Could you easily live with he possibility that your grandparents might have been directly responsible for the very existence of that pile?

 

Still not getting it. No sane person celebrates the misery of others but what you're doing is trying to guilt-trip others for something that they had no part of. Being paranoid about what you can joke about just makes things worse.  

 

I'm only saying have some respect. I don't say anyone here is guilty, that is ridiculous. I'm only saying, joking on one of the greatest tregdies that have ever occured is not something I consider very enjoyable. I can not stop you from it. I will give my opinion. 

Edited October 30, 2016 by Ben No.3

[licketysplit]

I look forward to Spain and France following the UK's lead. Hope it happens. Borders and independence are what helps a nation maintain its identity. 

[Orogun01]

As someone that has an outside perspective living in the US I can tell that having separate cultures within a same nation is a detriment. That's within a nation that has a shared history; which they ignore, so I will have to say that it would most likely fail with different nations that all have separate cultures that have little to do with one another. The only way to keep them together is through imperialism but that seems to be taboo nowadays. Even though it is practiced in some measure.

[Gorth]

As someone that has an outside perspective living in the US I can tell that having separate cultures within a same nation is a detriment. That's within a nation that has a shared history; which they ignore, so I will have to say that it would most likely fail with different nations that all have separate cultures that have little to do with one another. The only way to keep them together is through imperialism but that seems to be taboo nowadays. Even though it is practiced in some measure.

 

Let's form a new political party... the Moderate Imperialists

 

 

On topic, the EU in it's current form is what was once a pretty dream turned into an opaque cesspool of lobbyism and administration. Tzeentch loves you guys!

[BruceVC]

 

As someone that has an outside perspective living in the US I can tell that having separate cultures within a same nation is a detriment. That's within a nation that has a shared history; which they ignore, so I will have to say that it would most likely fail with different nations that all have separate cultures that have little to do with one another. The only way to keep them together is through imperialism but that seems to be taboo nowadays. Even though it is practiced in some measure.

 

Let's form a new political party... the Moderate Imperialists

 

 

On topic, the EU in it's current form is what was once a pretty dream turned into an opaque cesspool of lobbyism and administration. Tzeentch loves you guys!

 

Gorthfuscious !!!  You are not helping by pandering to the anti-EU camp 

 

It is generally expected you always support the EU because you dont want to upset younger people by saying " the EU is  a failure " 

 

Remember you live in Oz now and the success or failure is not really a major issue for you so its best just to be positive 

[Ben No.3]

 

I mean as in most people speak it already

 

Arguably I would say that in EU more people speak German than English.

 

By percent? Not sure.... Don't think so

[Ben No.3]

I look forward to Spain and France following the UK's lead. Hope it happens. Borders and independence are what helps a nation maintain its identity. 

 How on earth would spain maintain economic stability without the EU? And what reason does france have to leave the EU? They are one of the EUs core members

[Ben No.3]

As someone that has an outside perspective living in the US I can tell that having separate cultures within a same nation is a detriment. That's within a nation that has a shared history; which they ignore, so I will have to say that it would most likely fail with different nations that all have separate cultures that have little to do with one another. The only way to keep them together is through imperialism but that seems to be taboo nowadays. Even though it is practiced in some measure.

Keeping together different cultures through an single nation where everyone gets the same rights rather than through oppression through imperialism has never been attempted before on this scale, at least not to my knowledge. We do not know what will happen, nobody can tell.

But the EU as it is now tries to be a country without being a country. Why not go that last step? Most of the recent crisis in the EU would have easily been solvable or wouldn't have occurred in the first place if the EU would have been a single nation at the time.

[Chippy]

Tell me chippy, have you ever read a good book on Nazi Germany? Not an accusation, I just want to know how in depth we can go.

I'd prefer not to - I had to study years ago various psychologists through history and attempt to relate that to the concept of changing behaviour - and Nazi Germany played a large role.  But if I was any good at using that knowledge in effecting decision making domains, I'd be able to convince yourself about the negatives of the EU, and Bruce about Hillary Clinton

I just come here to poke people with a stick, after finding out a while back that there are groups that consider me the enemy (without even knowing who I am, or what I've done with my life) and try to work out why.

As a plumbers mate to my father, we worked with people ranging from arabian princesses to soho retired prostitutes and politicians. But I always remember the community of senior Jewish citizen holocaust survivors we worked for over the years, and the stories they would tell me.  I didn't have enough life experience to fully grasp it then, and I'll probably see things different again in ten years, but many of them were let down by the government in both health and finally death.

So yeah, a bit too depressing for me thanks - it's bad enough thinking about the proposed EU army, and Hillary Clintons warning about the RUSSIANS (cause we all know that they're like...)

Edited October 31, 2016 by Chippy

[Ben No.3]

Look Chippy,

I see your points. But I think that the EU, although by no means perfect and definitley full of flaws, it is better compared to having no EU. Same goes for Hillary (only I don't find her good at all... Just better.... I would have liked Sanders). But I respect your opinion, I just don't agree with it. 

[Chippy]

I meant that in a light hearted way, directed at the violent SJW types.  It's all pretty new and terrifying to me.

[Ben No.3]

Dogmatic thinking is very dangerous indeed.... 

[Gorth]

Gorthfuscious !!! You are not helping by pandering to the anti-EU camp

 

It is generally expected you always support the EU because you dont want to upset younger people by saying " the EU is a failure "

 

Remember you live in Oz now and the success or failure is not really a major issue for you so its best just to be positive

Hey, check my signature...

 

 

One thing I at least think Guarddog and I share is the belief that the further you remove people from the decision makers, the less invested they become in it. After a certain point, the lack of investment turns to resentment once people feel alienated enough. Marching in goosestep, nodding, yes saying and blindly following decrees from "above" were never my thing(s).

[Ben No.3]

But wouldn't the better solution be to get people more involved in the first place rather than creating heavy opposition only based on that feeling of alienation (rather than actual facts) you described afterwards?

Edited October 31, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Gorth]

But wouldn't the better solution be to get people more involved in the first place rather than creating heavy opposition only based on that feeling of alienation (rather than actual facts) you described afterwards?

I don't think you can change the nature of humans that fast. What you consider countries today was often no more than warring sates, realms, counties, principalities etc. centuries ago. The way they got united and became peaceful was through war, excessive brutality, butchery, famine and generally breaking the spirit of people until they accepted the new status quo. France, Germany are Italy are relatively young countries which was united at gunpoint by visionary conquerors. Replacing guns with contracts and trade agreements means it takes a lot longer to break down peoples spirits and make them malleable for the idea of abandoning the old and familiar. No, I don't believe you are going to make people in general (there will always be exceptions) "like" the idea of bowing to new overlords in Bruxelles at the cost of the illusionary self determination they think they've got. You want to win the battle against independence movements, you need centralised control of the media and press and preach the message 24/7. Not a betting person, which is just as well, or I would probably have placed money on the outcome will be the result some day in the EU.

[Ben No.3]

 

But wouldn't the better solution be to get people more involved in the first place rather than creating heavy opposition only based on that feeling of alienation (rather than actual facts) you described afterwards?

I don't think you can change the nature of humans that fast. What you consider countries today was often no more than warring sates, realms, counties, principalities etc. centuries ago. The way they got united and became peaceful was through war, excessive brutality, butchery, famine and generally breaking the spirit of people until they accepted the new status quo. France, Germany are Italy are relatively young countries which was united at gunpoint by visionary conquerors. Replacing guns with contracts and trade agreements means it takes a lot longer to break down peoples spirits and make them malleable for the idea of abandoning the old and familiar. No, I don't believe you are going to make people in general (there will always be exceptions) "like" the idea of bowing to new overlords in Bruxelles at the cost of the illusionary self determination they think they've got. You want to win the battle against independence movements, you need centralised control of the media and press and preach the message 24/7. Not a betting person, which is just as well, or I would probably have placed money on the outcome will be the result some day in the EU.

 

 

OBJEKTION: Bismark united germany through diplomatic negotiation. And then we got in a war with france... But Germany itself was untied through negotiation.  

 

And yes, if the public opposes the isea of an USE, then it needs to wait. Maybe it will never happen. I still belive it would be a good thing if, and I have spend lost of posts on explayning why

Edited November 1, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Gorth]

OBJEKTION: Bismark united germany through diplomatic negotiation. And then we got in a war with france... But Germany itself was untied through negotiation.  

 

And yes, if the public opposes the isea of an USE, then it needs to wait. Maybe it will never happen. I still belive it would be a good thing if, and I have spend lost of posts on explayning why

 

Hahahahahaaha.... no. Unless you consider the wars with Denmark and Austria "Diplomacy". He wasn't called the "Iron Chancellor" for nothing. War was what he was best at.

European countries might indeed unite some day. Even mortal enemies like England and Scotland eventually united, so stranger things has happened. I just don't believe EU in it's current form is the way go forward.