Should the EU become the United States of Europe? What do you think?

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

not a big supporter of direct democracy huh? yeah another reason why I don't want EU nation. I really don't know which answer from poll to pick, I want EU to go back to its roots as free movement of people and goods inside EU. I don't EU government as small nations being ignored is pretty much guaranteed now.

 

And don't get me started on that economy of Germany

Yes but what you want is not going to happen, you cannot have the single market with all its benefits but reject certain laws or control  from Brussels 

 

This is the harsh lesson the UK is learning from BREXIT...the EU has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad

 

 

Of course you can, its just Brussels don't want it. its different story. Free movement of people and goods doesn't require to police agriculture for example. 

 

Its not that simple, the EU works because of the relatively strict enforcement of rules and expectations from Brussels

 

You cant pick and choose what suits you  even if I can empathize with some of your criticism

 

Thats why other unions who have tried to copy the EU have failed miserably, like the Arab League and the African Union...they dont enforce the rules or implement  good governance 

 

 

you are completely misguided, I am talking about trade and free movement of people and you are still talking about internal affairs of independent nations need to be regulated by Brussel. Only regulations for customs are relevant to free trade, nothing else. You ar just another imperialist who thinks that bigger and 'better' states should impose their views on others (funny you kinda support 'preying on the weak')

 

Am I misguided?

 

Maybe I am not explaining my point properly, the EU has several core foundations and rules that any member state has to follow

 

These include free movement of people within the EU, you cant say you dont want this if you want to belong to the EU

 

Imperialist\Colonialist\ White Capitalist ...yes I have been called all these names. None matter because its not relevant to the rules of the EU 

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not a big supporter of direct democracy huh? yeah another reason why I don't want EU nation. I really don't know which answer from poll to pick, I want EU to go back to its roots as free movement of people and goods inside EU. I don't EU government as small nations being ignored is pretty much guaranteed now.

 

And don't get me started on that economy of Germany

Yes but what you want is not going to happen, you cannot have the single market with all its benefits but reject certain laws or control from Brussels

 

This is the harsh lesson the UK is learning from BREXIT...the EU has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad

Of course you can, its just Brussels don't want it. its different story. Free movement of people and goods doesn't require to police agriculture for example.

Its not that simple, the EU works because of the relatively strict enforcement of rules and expectations from Brussels

 

You cant pick and choose what suits you even if I can empathize with some of your criticism

 

Thats why other unions who have tried to copy the EU have failed miserably, like the Arab League and the African Union...they dont enforce the rules or implement good governance

you are completely misguided, I am talking about trade and free movement of people and you are still talking about internal affairs of independent nations need to be regulated by Brussel. Only regulations for customs are relevant to free trade, nothing else. You ar just another imperialist who thinks that bigger and 'better' states should impose their views on others (funny you kinda support 'preying on the weak')

But... If we could create a single Europe with a pr parliament (I explained earlier) them small voices would drastically gain power, especially in comparison to now... It is highly unlikely that the party with the most votes has the majority of seats, so it needs to negotiate with small parties, so those small parties can push their goals quite strongly.

[obyknven]

 

So this is an idea that I find extremely interesting, and I really want to see what you guys think. Please do give reasons in the comment section. Thanks for any shared opinions

I am a huge supporter of Germany and Merkel and how Germany after WW2 has been able to recreate its identity and become very significant again. And it did this  not through military superiority but hard work and economic transformation.

 

Lol, your German economic "miracle" is  just using of Jewish Nazi gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11081786

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34358783

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html

 

etc.

 

Yep, proscriptions, slave labor and plundering of conquered lands is so profitable.

[Chilloutman]

Am I misguided?

 

Maybe I am not explaining my point properly, the EU has several core foundations and rules that any member state has to follow

 

These include free movement of people within the EU, you cant say you dont want this if you want to belong to the EU

 

Imperialist\Colonialist\ White Capitalist ...yes I have been called all these names. None matter because its not relevant to the rules of the EU

you are a) misguided b) can't read c) trolling

 

I have stated multiple times that I am for free movement within EU

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not a big supporter of direct democracy huh? yeah another reason why I don't want EU nation. I really don't know which answer from poll to pick, I want EU to go back to its roots as free movement of people and goods inside EU. I don't EU government as small nations being ignored is pretty much guaranteed now.

 

And don't get me started on that economy of Germany

Yes but what you want is not going to happen, you cannot have the single market with all its benefits but reject certain laws or control from Brussels

 

This is the harsh lesson the UK is learning from BREXIT...the EU has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad

Of course you can, its just Brussels don't want it. its different story. Free movement of people and goods doesn't require to police agriculture for example.

Its not that simple, the EU works because of the relatively strict enforcement of rules and expectations from Brussels

 

You cant pick and choose what suits you even if I can empathize with some of your criticism

 

Thats why other unions who have tried to copy the EU have failed miserably, like the Arab League and the African Union...they dont enforce the rules or implement good governance

you are completely misguided, I am talking about trade and free movement of people and you are still talking about internal affairs of independent nations need to be regulated by Brussel. Only regulations for customs are relevant to free trade, nothing else. You ar just another imperialist who thinks that bigger and 'better' states should impose their views on others (funny you kinda support 'preying on the weak')

Am I misguided?

 

Maybe I am not explaining my point properly, the EU has several core foundations and rules that any member state has to follow

 

These include free movement of people within the EU, you cant say you dont want this if you want to belong to the EU

 

Imperialist\Colonialist\ White Capitalist ...yes I have been called all these names. None matter because its not relevant to the rules of the EU

How boring... I've been a hopeless idealist, a communist according to more... Conservative Germans (usually aged above 70) and an imperialist by several non Germans... Isn't that an impressive track record?

[redneckdevil]

I'll be the odd man out and say I don't want them to become USoE and I don't support the EU ATM.

Reason why I don't want them to become the USoE is because I don't think it will work. The only reason why USA "worked" was because the laws AND culture all followed a single path. It didn't matter where u came from, once u became a citizen u were sweeped up in the "American Way!" and u was expected to at least partake in the culture. U could still keep ur culture from the mother lands, u was expected it to put it second to the American Way. EU does not have that unified approach (well some would argue that it does but u have to be either a minority or a Muslim) so there's no unity as far as culture and identity.

I'm a firm believer that people should keep their identity, with USoE I see a lot of countries losing that which sets them apart.

2. I don't really agree with EU but then again it doesn't affect me that I know of and I'm not to keen on knowledge of it so don't take me as a knowledgeable person on the subject.

To me it looks like it is doomed to fail (hopefully not) because it basically means with the open borders are done wrong in my opinion and also the plan seems like eventually everyone is gonna fail because everyone's in it together. The losers will fail and the winners will have to sacrifice to keep the losers afloat and eventually the winners aren't gonna be able to do it. I mean winners and losers subjectively because it early and I can't seem to think of the PC word for the countries who will lose money and people and such and the ones who are gonna be able to stay afloat.

[Chilloutman]

But... If we could create a single Europe with a pr parliament (I explained earlier) them small voices would drastically gain power, especially in comparison to now... It is highly unlikely that the party with the most votes has the majority of seats, so it needs to negotiate with small parties, so those small parties can push their goals quite strongly.

no, you have Germany with 50M of votes, you have France with 50M of votes. How e.g. 5M of Slovaks affect any vote in that amount is beyond me. That is beauty of Europe. If you don't like to live in Germany because of laws there you can just swap to other country which have laws more suited to you. If all nations have same laws you are screwed.

[BruceVC]

 

Am I misguided?

 

Maybe I am not explaining my point properly, the EU has several core foundations and rules that any member state has to follow

 

These include free movement of people within the EU, you cant say you dont want this if you want to belong to the EU

 

Imperialist\Colonialist\ White Capitalist ...yes I have been called all these names. None matter because its not relevant to the rules of the EU

you are a) misguided b) can't read c) trolling

 

I have stated multiple times that I am for free movement within EU

 

Okay, lets go back then because I want to understand  what your criticism is 

 

What exactly is your issue with the institutions of the EU ? You say agriculture....is that is?

[Ben No.3]

 

But... If we could create a single Europe with a pr parliament (I explained earlier) them small voices would drastically gain power, especially in comparison to now... It is highly unlikely that the party with the most votes has the majority of seats, so it needs to negotiate with small parties, so those small parties can push their goals quite strongly.

no, you have Germany with 50M of votes, you have France with 50M of votes. How e.g. 5M of Slovaks affect any vote in that amount is beyond me. That is beauty of Europe. If you don't like to live in Germany because of laws there you can just swap to other country which have laws more suited to you. If all nations have same laws you are screwed.

Let's say, for some reason, the entire of Germany votes for a single party. Well, the German party will maybe be the largest, yes, but it won't be large enough to have 70% of seats (which is considered to be gee absolute majority). That means they have to negotiate their goals with for example the Slovaks, really with smaller parties in general. And these smaller parties can push through a lot since the bigger ones are dependent on them to get their goals through parliament.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

not a big supporter of direct democracy huh? yeah another reason why I don't want EU nation. I really don't know which answer from poll to pick, I want EU to go back to its roots as free movement of people and goods inside EU. I don't EU government as small nations being ignored is pretty much guaranteed now.

 

And don't get me started on that economy of Germany

Yes but what you want is not going to happen, you cannot have the single market with all its benefits but reject certain laws or control from Brussels

 

This is the harsh lesson the UK is learning from BREXIT...the EU has its good and bad points but the good far outweighs the bad

Of course you can, its just Brussels don't want it. its different story. Free movement of people and goods doesn't require to police agriculture for example.

Its not that simple, the EU works because of the relatively strict enforcement of rules and expectations from Brussels

 

You cant pick and choose what suits you even if I can empathize with some of your criticism

 

Thats why other unions who have tried to copy the EU have failed miserably, like the Arab League and the African Union...they dont enforce the rules or implement good governance

you are completely misguided, I am talking about trade and free movement of people and you are still talking about internal affairs of independent nations need to be regulated by Brussel. Only regulations for customs are relevant to free trade, nothing else. You ar just another imperialist who thinks that bigger and 'better' states should impose their views on others (funny you kinda support 'preying on the weak')

Am I misguided?

 

Maybe I am not explaining my point properly, the EU has several core foundations and rules that any member state has to follow

 

These include free movement of people within the EU, you cant say you dont want this if you want to belong to the EU

 

Imperialist\Colonialist\ White Capitalist ...yes I have been called all these names. None matter because its not relevant to the rules of the EU

How boring... I've been a hopeless idealist, a communist according to more... Conservative Germans (usually aged above 70) and an imperialist by several non Germans... Isn't that an impressive track record?

 

I will happily debate any ideology as long as people remain civil and polite. Dont think its wrong to be an idealist, I am also an idealist in some ways as sometimes thats the only way we can rationalize certain global events and there outcome

[Chilloutman]

Okay, lets go back then because I want to understand  what your criticism is 

 

What exactly is your issue with the institutions of the EU ? You say agriculture....is that is?

I think I already explain it multiple times even to you and my above posts (not reply to you) should give you some idea.

 

I kinda know already answer but let me still ask it:

 

In your country its traditional to share meal with your neighbour

Someone in other country decided thats against hygiene standards and thus forbidden

they have 50M votes, your country have 5M votes

 

are you ok that people from country you don't live in decide how you should interact with your neighbour?

[Ben No.3]

 

Okay, lets go back then because I want to understand what your criticism is

 

What exactly is your issue with the institutions of the EU ? You say agriculture....is that is?

I think I already explain it multiple times even to you and my above posts (not reply to you) should give you some idea.

 

I kinda know already answer but let me still ask it:

 

In your country its traditional to share meal with your neighbour

Someone in other country decided thats against hygiene standards and thus forbidden

they have 50M votes, your country have 5M votes

 

are you ok that people from country you don't live in decide how you should interact with your neighbour?

But in the USE, it would be one country. That is how democracy works

Besides, the Germans are not some evil elite seeking control, there is political diversity here add well.people on Germany will also vote against the meat law

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Meshugger]

 

 

 

No, voluntary cooperation between states via trade deals that follow the ideals of open trade.

 

Everything else is Napoleon-LARPing.

 

You are against free movement of people within EU as well?

 

 

Free movement of people is implied by having open trade deals. But if one country wants to become the next Belarus, then let them, and it will fall by itself.

 

The choice is between an eventually culturally united Europe, generalized strife and war, or the United Republic of Nestlé (replace corporation name to taste). I go with the first option.

 

Why are there only those two options and what do you base them on?

 

 

Three options, you mean. To answer your question, a history of conflict and wars over the past 2000 years is what I base my prediction on.

 

 

My bad, I took a culturally united Europe and conflict and war for being the same thing.

 

War will never go away, so that's why option 1 is so dangerous because it will require war to get there effectively and it will result in ever bigger wars on a continental level once in place, unless we start to colonize the stars of course.

[Chilloutman]

 

 

But... If we could create a single Europe with a pr parliament (I explained earlier) them small voices would drastically gain power, especially in comparison to now... It is highly unlikely that the party with the most votes has the majority of seats, so it needs to negotiate with small parties, so those small parties can push their goals quite strongly.

no, you have Germany with 50M of votes, you have France with 50M of votes. How e.g. 5M of Slovaks affect any vote in that amount is beyond me. That is beauty of Europe. If you don't like to live in Germany because of laws there you can just swap to other country which have laws more suited to you. If all nations have same laws you are screwed.

 

 

yeah that's the problem, you will always be that big guy that others have to deal with to get at least part of what they actually want - you loose your independence

 

You want new car? fine but you neighbour decide if it will be Dacia or BMW, if it will be black or green and if it will be diesel or petrol. Great

 

 

Let's say, for some reason, the entire of Germany votes for a single party. Well, the German party will maybe be the largest, yes, but it won't be large enough to have 70% of seats (which is considered to be gee absolute majority). That means they have to negotiate their goals with for example the Slovaks, really with smaller parties in general. And these smaller parties can push through a lot since the bigger ones are dependent on them to get their goals through parliament.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Chilloutman

[BruceVC]

 

 

So this is an idea that I find extremely interesting, and I really want to see what you guys think. Please do give reasons in the comment section. Thanks for any shared opinions

I am a huge supporter of Germany and Merkel and how Germany after WW2 has been able to recreate its identity and become very significant again. And it did this  not through military superiority but hard work and economic transformation.

 

Lol, your German economic "miracle" is  just using of Jewish Nazi gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11081786

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34358783

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html

 

etc.

 

Yep, proscriptions, slave labor and plundering of conquered lands is so profitable.

 

Oby those links are history, they are irrelevant to what Germany is nowadays and all the positive it does

 

This appears to be something you Russians dont understand, your past doesn't define you and I would encourage you to think more about real challenges in the year 2016 and stop worrying about the past

 

This is one of the main reasons your economy is such a mess, misplaced attempts to " restore the great Russian bear  "  

[Chilloutman]

 

 

Okay, lets go back then because I want to understand what your criticism is

 

What exactly is your issue with the institutions of the EU ? You say agriculture....is that is?

I think I already explain it multiple times even to you and my above posts (not reply to you) should give you some idea.

 

I kinda know already answer but let me still ask it:

 

In your country its traditional to share meal with your neighbour

Someone in other country decided thats against hygiene standards and thus forbidden

they have 50M votes, your country have 5M votes

 

are you ok that people from country you don't live in decide how you should interact with your neighbour?

 

But in the USE, it would be one country. That is how democracy works

Besides, the Germans are not some evil elite seeking control, there is political diversity here add well.people on Germany will also vote against the meat law

 

No its not Germans ofcourse, but lets be realistic - everyone seeks to gain something. Why do you think that germany have so many businesses in east europe? Because its cheaper to create wealth there and spend it in germany. Do you think its in German interest to have east Europe same wealth as Germany? Don't be foolish

[Ben No.3]

I'm sorry but... Where's your answer?

EDIT nevermind my bad

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

Okay, lets go back then because I want to understand what your criticism is

 

What exactly is your issue with the institutions of the EU ? You say agriculture....is that is?

I think I already explain it multiple times even to you and my above posts (not reply to you) should give you some idea.

 

I kinda know already answer but let me still ask it:

 

In your country its traditional to share meal with your neighbour

Someone in other country decided thats against hygiene standards and thus forbidden

they have 50M votes, your country have 5M votes

 

are you ok that people from country you don't live in decide how you should interact with your neighbour?

But in the USE, it would be one country. That is how democracy works

Besides, the Germans are not some evil elite seeking control, there is political diversity here add well.people on Germany will also vote against the meat law

No its not Germans ofcourse, but lets be realistic - everyone seeks to gain something. Why do you think that germany have so many businesses in east europe? Because its cheaper to create wealth there and spend it in germany. Do you think its in German interest to have east Europe same wealth as Germany? Don't be foolish

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

[Chilloutman]

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

[obyknven]

 

 

 

So this is an idea that I find extremely interesting, and I really want to see what you guys think. Please do give reasons in the comment section. Thanks for any shared opinions

I am a huge supporter of Germany and Merkel and how Germany after WW2 has been able to recreate its identity and become very significant again. And it did this  not through military superiority but hard work and economic transformation.

 

Lol, your German economic "miracle" is  just using of Jewish Nazi gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11081786

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34358783

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html

 

etc.

 

Yep, proscriptions, slave labor and plundering of conquered lands is so profitable.

 

Oby those links are history, they are irrelevant to what Germany is nowadays and all the positive it does

 

This appears to be something you Russians dont understand, your past doesn't define you and I would encourage you to think more about real challenges in the year 2016 and stop worrying about the past

 

This is one of the main reasons your economy is such a mess, misplaced attempts to " restore the great Russian bear  "

 

History lol. These money\funds is not history. Foundation of German economical "miracle" is Nazi warcrimes, without they no modern Germany/EU even exist (for example  almost all modern German roads has been build by slaves during Hitler's time ). Don't make mistake - i don't criticise Germans for it - wars is extremely profitable - is just objective reality. Actually Russia  do want make some such economically reasoned wars also - even war against such beggar-country as Ukraine deliver so much profit for us (cheap Ukrainian migrants working for food in Siberia, land grab, population grab + 2M, oil resources grab, plants/factories grab ). Just imagine how profitable can be war against prospered Eropean states (Sweden for example) in comparsion with this.

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

 

So this is an idea that I find extremely interesting, and I really want to see what you guys think. Please do give reasons in the comment section. Thanks for any shared opinions

I am a huge supporter of Germany and Merkel and how Germany after WW2 has been able to recreate its identity and become very significant again. And it did this not through military superiority but hard work and economic transformation.

Lol, your German economic "miracle" is just using of Jewish Nazi gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_affair

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bank

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-11081786

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34358783

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2663635/Revealed-How-Nazis-helped-German-companies-Bosch-Mercedes-Deutsche-Bank-VW-VERY-rich-using-slave-labor.html

 

etc.

 

Yep, proscriptions, slave labor and plundering of conquered lands is so profitable.

Oby those links are history, they are irrelevant to what Germany is nowadays and all the positive it does

 

This appears to be something you Russians dont understand, your past doesn't define you and I would encourage you to think more about real challenges in the year 2016 and stop worrying about the past

 

"

Thank you!

[Meshugger]

"It's the current year!"-meme will inevitably come and bite people in the ass.

[Ben No.3]

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the most Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education... Edited October 6, 2016 by Ben No.3

[Chilloutman]

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

 

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

 

Ok I got my answer - you are not imperialist, you are naive

[Ben No.3]

 

 

 

But that is exactly what a unified Europe would solve, they HAD to care because it's one country

You really believe that by some magic all employers across EU would start paying same salaries, there would be same level of social state without looking at economic power of those countries? Do you really think that it would not destroy economies of such countries? and of course I am not only talking about getting it on Germany level, but to support it, at same time German salaries to go down? There would be riots everywhere...

No, I'm saying a unified Europe will solve the problems the euro created, and it will definitely give a boost to ALL its members. BTW yes the Germans would help... We have good welfare, good free health care, good free education...

Ok I got my answer - you are not imperialist, you are naive

Nope, just a hopeless idealist