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First-timer: PotD Cipher, melee or ranged?

cipher melee ranged potd

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#21
Loren Tyr

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Like I said, dexterity speeds up everything (except idle). This includes reloading as well. Time it yourself if you don't believe me (or check the source code). Take, for example, an Arquebus attack cycle. With no attack speed bonuses/penalties and dexterity at 10, this will have an idle time of about 0.2s, 1.5s attack animation, 2.5s recovery, and about 6.4-6.8s reload time for a total duration of around 10.8s. Set dexterity to 20 (30% speed-up), and the duration drops to about 10.6/1.3 + 0.2 = 8.4s. If it did not reduce the reload time, that would be considerably higher, at about 4/1.3 + 6.6 + 0.2 = 9.9s. 


Edited by Loren Tyr, 15 August 2016 - 02:56 PM.


#22
DreamWayfarer

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Then again, DEX also affects the amount of damage you deal by increasing your attack rate. Which amount of Might vs Dex is optimal rather depends on what kind of build and playstyle you're using.

It's a moot point, and I think we are both on point. But you can easily have high Might/Dexterity/Intellect, and still have a few points to go around. That's not even min-maxing.
What about PER? And on melee you also need Con and Res. And with a two-hander, MIG does not matter much for weapon damage, with +40% from Soul+Biting Whip and +15% from the talent MIG gets less relevant.

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 15 August 2016 - 03:29 PM.


#23
Prince of Lies

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Like I said, dexterity speeds up everything (except idle). This includes reloading as well. Time it yourself if you don't believe me (or check the source code). Take, for example, an Arquebus attack cycle. With no attack speed bonuses/penalties and dexterity at 10, this will have an idle time of about 0.2s, 1.5s attack animation, 2.5s recovery, and about 6.4-6.8s reload time for a total duration of around 10.8s. Set dexterity to 20 (30% speed-up), and the duration drops to about 10.6/1.3 + 0.2 = 8.4s. If it did not reduce the reload time, that would be considerably higher, at about 4/1.3 + 6.6 + 0.2 = 9.9s. 

 

I have already timed it- I found similar results, but the reload animation in particular did not change.
 

What about PER? And on melee you also need Con and Res. And with a two-hander, MIG does not matter much for weapon damage, with +40% from Soul+Biting Whip and +15% from the talent MIG gets less relevant.

 

As i've addressed earlier: Perception only increases your chances to hit and your interrupt rate. You'd still have points left over, and I've been able to hit everything with at least 12 points in perception (plus talents/equipment). Constitution and resolve only really matter if you plan on being in the line of fire. If your playing it similarely to a rogue, you really don't need constitution or resolve. As also mentioned earlier. More damage = more focus. More focus = more powerful powers.

Also, you know, logic would show that higher damage kills things faster.



#24
Loren Tyr

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Like I said, dexterity speeds up everything (except idle). This includes reloading as well. Time it yourself if you don't believe me (or check the source code). Take, for example, an Arquebus attack cycle. With no attack speed bonuses/penalties and dexterity at 10, this will have an idle time of about 0.2s, 1.5s attack animation, 2.5s recovery, and about 6.4-6.8s reload time for a total duration of around 10.8s. Set dexterity to 20 (30% speed-up), and the duration drops to about 10.6/1.3 + 0.2 = 8.4s. If it did not reduce the reload time, that would be considerably higher, at about 4/1.3 + 6.6 + 0.2 = 9.9s. 

 

I have already timed it- I found similar results, but the reload animation in particular did not change.

 

Then you should time it again, because it does. Timing 5 consecutive Arquebus attacks I get an average duration per attack of 10.7 for DEX=10, 8.3 for DEX=20 and 6.9 for DEX=30. Assuming an idle time of 0.2s (thus yielding 10.5, 8.1 and 6.7), this fits very neatly into the duration you would expect if DEX scaled everything: 10.5/1.3 = 8.1s, 10.5/1.6 = 6.6s. If only attack and recovery scaled with DEX, it would be virtually impossible to get anywhere near 6.9 seconds, the attack + recovery would have to be reduced to almost 0 for that to happen.

 

But more definitive still is the source code. In the AI.Achievement.ReloadWeapon.OnEnter() function that is called when reloading is initialized (or continued after interruption), we have the following bit of code:

float num = 1f;
if (this.m_firearm != null)
{
	num = this.m_firearm.CalculateAttackSpeed();
}
this.m_speedMultiplier = component.ReloadSpeedMultiplier * num;

The ReloadSpeedMultiplier reflects stuff like Gunner. The CalculateAttackSpeed() function grabs the Dexterity attack speed multiplier (as well as any speed-affecting AbilityMods if the attack is part of an ability being used, not sure this is ever used in practice). Dexterity and Reload Speed bonuses are thus multiplicatively combined in this speedMultiplier. In the same function the reloadTime is set to however much time was previously spent reloading (if any). 

 

In the AI.Achievement.ReloadWeapon.Update() function we have:

this.m_reloadTime += Time.deltaTime * this.m_speedMultiplier;

The reloadTime is thus increased by the actual time elapsed (deltaTime), multiplied by the Dexterity and Reload-specific speed bonuses. The reloadTime is subsequently checked against the intended reload duration for the weapon (there's a bit of wiggle there, related to the animation process). 

 

So yes, reloading definitely scales with Dexterity as well.


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#25
Prince of Lies

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I stand corrected.

#26
DreamWayfarer

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As i've addressed earlier: Perception only increases your chances to hit and your interrupt rate. You'd still have points left over, and I've been able to hit everything with at least 12 points in perception (plus talents/equipment). Constitution and resolve only really matter if you plan on being in the line of fire. If your playing it similarely to a rogue, you really don't need constitution or resolve. As also mentioned earlier. More damage = more focus. More focus = more powerful powers.

Perception also means more crits, which helps a lot with CC as well as damage. Maybe I value it more than others because I don't play with Priests, but there are few things more annoying than seeing your hard-earned focus "wasted" on a graze or miss against a poweful foe you needed to debuff.

And some of us prefer to have all characters capable of holding against one or two foes in melee instead of always relying on two or three tanks, specially in battles against a big number of foes when you don't have enough druids or wizards to keep everyone disabled all the time. Plus, dumping defensive stats on melee chars is bad advice for begginers who still don't know the optimal strategies against every enemy type.

Also, you know, logic would show that higher damage kills things faster.

Logic also shows that dead people generaly don't kill things very fast, and that bad aim makes killing harder. It is a matter of deciding based on build and playstyle.

Might accounts for a smaller percentage of potential damage increase in two-handers because the two-handed style talent is equivalent of +5 MIG for the purposes of damage, and while more damage is always better, not dumping defensive attributes allows you to position your cipher more freely and not panic the moment you get engaged, things that IMO would be much more useful to a beginner than doing more damage and using powers more often.

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 16 August 2016 - 05:54 AM.

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#27
Prince of Lies

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This thread seems to be getting a little salty.

I also have said in my earlier posts in this thread that if your in the main line of fire, throw on heavier armor and plop some points into constitution and resolve. I have also continually said that it's all personal preference. Your repeating what I've already said (minus the perception thing- which your correct- is totally valid, but is again, personal preference).

Also take into account that the original poster plays the Baldur's Gate series with Sword Coast Stratagems. More than likely playing on the hardest difficulty. And, to be perfectly honest, that is more difficult than playing Pillars of Eternity on Path of the Damned. Mostly because, unlike Pillars, you can't really build a rogue as a tank as effectively as you can with a fighter, etc. Also unlike Pillars, not all attributes were used by all classes- making min-maxing more effective. And because the starting health of certain classes was arbitrarily going to be smaller (wizards d4 hit-die, versus the fighters d10), it didn't make as much sense to put points in constitution for those lower hit-die classes.

I specifically remember with SCS kobolds one-hitting my rogue with short bows in the first major dungeon. It took a lot of micromanagement. Similar, say, to a cipher with low constitution and resolve- which is currently the attribute array the original poster is currently planning on using. Seeing as that's the case, even with wearing heavier armor, it would be more effective for that cipher to be micromanaged in such a way it reduces the instances that the cipher is being directly engaged.

In any event, you don't need three tanks to play this way. I do it with one tank, and one off-tank on larger groups of enemies. You can get talents and items that increase the amount of enemies can be engaged at any time by a single character; thus increasing a single characters ability to tank by pulling as many enemies as possible. 


Edited by Prince of Lies, 16 August 2016 - 10:34 AM.


#28
Climhazzard

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Just imo but i wanted to add my 2 cents.  A squishy cipher on PotD seems like the shortest path to frustration for a new player no matter how experienced you were with previous similar games.  Cipher's have ramp up time on their resources (even worse on PotD because it's hard to hit enemies in the beginning), their defensive spells generally have an average cast speed, they can't pull themselves out of the fire on demand like many other classes can, and enemies will often target your squishiest guy.  There are many differences in the combat mechanics of PoE and the combat mechanics of similar games like Baldur's gate, there's a lot of new stuff to learn.  Hard is a better option imo, or a different class.  With 3 constitution and resolve you'll spend most of the early game dirt napping after a single enemy decided to swat you.  Plus some encounters automatically put your MC in the front at the start, they make having a squishy MC even more frustrating for your first run.

 

You may have more luck with classes a little more similar to their counterparts in older games, wizard for example.  Shapeshifter druid is really strong class for a first run too, between inspiring radiance and blessing from your priest, and nature's mark from your druid, it's almost like playing on a lower difficulty.  Plus shapeshifting talent builds are simple and effective, with little to no item reliance.

 

Anyhow, I guess he probably already started so he'll be making his own conclusions now anyways.


Edited by Climhazzard, 16 August 2016 - 11:55 AM.






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