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The UK will leave the EU


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Do you have even more faith in humanity that you can lose? This the thread where you can continue that endeavor.

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"But please tell what exactly what you want from the EU, what would make you happy?"

 

The EU to be thrown in the trash. That would make me happy. :)

Well I appreciate the fact you are prepared to answer, why would you as a French Canadian want the EU to fail ?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

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"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

WOD I appreciate your honesty on topics, I just want honesty. I dont get offended and I think you and I have a very good forum relationship?

 

Do you not like the UK and why are you negative about the EU?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

 

I think Mrs May is far too canny a politician to do this, indeed her moderate stance in the referendum is probably what has almost guaranteed that she will lead the party in the immediate future. By playing the middle of the road she is appealing to a rather large demographic who are sick of the extremism and rhetoric, and also taking over the role that New Labour occupied. Now defining what exactly our position will be going forward as a trade partner, well that may be a minefield to tread, and one I don't envy anyone attempting. The expectations and factions are probably just as entrenched as those being brought into the referendum. I don't think anyone will be satisfied in the long term.

 

That said I also don't believe Mrs May has the grit or sheer bloody mindedness of our last lady premier (who does?) and thus we cannot expect as good a deal with Europe as she might have achieved.

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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

WOD I appreciate your honesty on topics, I just want honesty. I dont get offended and I think you and I have a very good forum relationship?

 

Do you not like the UK and why are you negative about the EU?

 

I don't know why you think I don't like UK, and I think I expressed my views on EU previously. But the short answer is I believe in self-government.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

 

I think Mrs May is far too canny a politician to do this, indeed her moderate stance in the referendum is probably what has almost guaranteed that she will lead the party in the immediate future. By playing the middle of the road she is appealing to a rather large demographic who are sick of the extremism and rhetoric, and also taking over the role that New Labour occupied. Now defining what exactly our position will be going forward as a trade partner, well that may be a minefield to tread, and one I don't envy anyone attempting. The expectations and factions are probably just as entrenched as those being brought into the referendum. I don't think anyone will be satisfied in the long term.

 

That said I also don't believe Mrs May has the grit or sheer bloody mindedness of our last lady premier (who does?) and thus we cannot expect as good a deal with Europe as she might have achieved.

 

" extremism and rhetoric  " ?

 

In the UK...what are talking about. Lets not embellish the reality of politics in the UK Nonek.,....our American friends are going through  "  extremism and rhetoric  " with the various new political changes

 

But to suggest that is happening in then UK?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

WOD I appreciate your honesty on topics, I just want honesty. I dont get offended and I think you and I have a very good forum relationship?

 

Do you not like the UK and why are you negative about the EU?

 

I don't know why you think I don't like UK, and I think I expressed my views on EU previously. But the short answer is I believe in self-government.

 

Okay but just so I'm clear when you say " self-government " can you go into detail and give examples 

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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Kingston-upon-Hull should leave the UK and govern itself, probably. ;)

 

Extremism and rhetoric - the lead-up to the referendum was quite nasty, in comparison to what people are used to. Not Trump levels, but nonetheless. (And while I personally think that the majority of the blame lies with the Brexiters, there was a lot of idiotic fearmongering and outlandish claims by Remain people, as well, not least because the campaign was so disgustingly inept and terribly half-a**ed.)

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To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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Kingston-upon-Hull should leave the UK and govern itself, probably. ;)

 

Extremism and rhetoric - the lead-up to the referendum was quite nasty, in comparison to what people are used to. Not Trump levels, but nonetheless. (And while I personally think that the majority of the blame lies with the Brexiters, there was a lot of idiotic fearmongering and outlandish claims by Remain people, as well, not least because the campaign was so disgustingly inept and terribly half-a**ed.)

Varana please remind me again, you are a history  lecturer?

"Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss”

John Milton 

"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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A fine point and one that needed to be made, for Britain has often judged a future leader by the real estate twixt upper lip and brow. Indeed a strong rudder like appendage has oft been seen as a sure sign of a man or womans commitment to the cause, will to succeed and an able indicator of their direction.

 

One only has to remember Tennyson's vivid words when regarding Arthur Wellesley's famed profile: Poetry of the Proud Puissant Proboscis.

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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I predict that May will sabotage BREXIT.

WOD I appreciate your honesty on topics, I just want honesty. I dont get offended and I think you and I have a very good forum relationship?

 

Do you not like the UK and why are you negative about the EU?

 

I don't know why you think I don't like UK, and I think I expressed my views on EU previously. But the short answer is I believe in self-government.

 

Okay but just so I'm clear when you say " self-government " can you go into detail and give examples

 

A government that's controlled by the people it purports to represent. Examples? You got me there, I can't think of any.

"Moral indignation is a standard strategy for endowing the idiot with dignity." Marshall McLuhan

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Sharp_one, on 07 Jul 2016 - 8:51 PM, said:snapback.png

Really? When was the election for EU commisioners held? When was the election for EU president held? When was the election for EU commision president held? Did you vote for Juncker, Tusk or Shulz? Do you know anyone who did?

When did you vote for Szydło? Never. When did you vote for any specific government minister or bureaucrat? Never.

But you voted for PiS (or another party) that got the majority and therefore usually confirms the Prime Minister.

The election of Juncker worked exactly the same way. The large political parties in Europe ran with Juncker, Schulz, etc. as their top candidates for the job, and because the EP has to confirm anyone appointed as president of the Commission, the candidate of the majority got the job. That works almost exactly as it does in Poland. So - everyone who voted in the last EP elections voted for the Commission president, as well.

For the rest, see Elerond's post above.

 

 

Those who voted in the European election did so to choose their MEP, not the president. Few knew Juncker was in the "race". According to some polls in Germany two weeks before the election, 7% could identify Juncker as the center-right's leading candidate. About 10% of Europe voted for the center-right parties backing Juncker, and the process leading up to Juncker's "election" as the EPP's candidate was pretty shady. He got less than half of the votes, and there's no list of who the delegates were or how they voted. In the end you ended up with one name on the ballot paper. The EU trying to present a facade of democracy.

 

The EU Parliament is the only parliament in the western world which can't introduce legislation. They don't even debate the legislation put forth by the Commission. Good ol' Sovjet times.. Did you know Barroso used to be a hardcore commie?

 

As for all the good they've done. The Euro? Massive unemploymency. Stealing money from people's bank accounts. Got an account in a bank in Cyprus? Better check if it's all there. Did you vote for Mario Monti? Goldman Sachs now conquering Europe as their technocrats ascended to the prime ministership in Italy.. with the help of the good old commies in the Commission of course. Ireland was the only country to put the Lisbon Treaty to a public vote, and it was rejected. Of course Barroso couldn't handle that, and a year later they had to have a new vote, to give the Irish a chance to "correct their mistake". A few years ago when Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg was told by Eurosceptics that the EU was planning to create an EU army, he snickered and rejected it as a dangerous fantasy. Now it's all over the news. EU army. And they want to meddle in Ukraine and start provoking Putin. Yeah.. this sounds good. I suppose you voted for all of this. No?

 

J.

Edited by Junai
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One only has to remember Tennyson's vivid words when regarding Arthur Wellesley's famed profile:

 

Half a league, half a league, half a league, onwards?

 

(He did have a magnificent conk, and he was an excellent general. Shame about being named after gumboots and being perhaps Britain's worst prime minister of all time (of all time!) though)

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I suspect a EU army would mostly be to protect market shares abroad and discourage members from invoking article 50

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“He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein

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Junai:

It is one of the EU's main problems that many voters don't realise how important and influential European elections have become. It is not the fault of the European Parliament if voters don't know what they're voting for. Contrary to earlier elections, the European parties (at least the two main ones) prominently featured their candidate for Commission President.

In contrast, how not to democratically elect a country's leader, has been clearly demonstrated these last days in Britain - a bunch of shady back-benchers whittle down a list of contenders, and the last one standing simply got the job handed over by a Prime Minister who was "elected" because his party got a majority of seats with just 37% of votes in an election that was held under very different circumstances, so probably doesn't really represent the people's will anymore. Compared to that, Juncker's election was a pinnacle of democracy and transparency. (I don't suggest that it was. It's just standard procedure for a representative democracy, and there's way worse systems in place in various member states. Like, the UK.)

 

The EP can introduce legislation indirectly (by requesting that the Commission propose a law), and of course they debate about laws put forth by the Commission. In the vast majority of them, they have to find a compromise that both Parliament and Commission accept (like in the US, where Senate and Representatives have to agree on a law), and in almost all others, they can veto the Commission's or Council's proposal.

 

Sure, that's not equal to what a national parliament can do. But then, the EU is not a state but a confederation of sovereign states. In that regard, I am very much in favour of reforming the EU - to shift the balance of power even more away from the nation states and towards the Union, and away from the Council (that is, the national governments, where much of the power lies at the moment) and towards the European Parliament. Unfortunately, that's still a long way off. Because usually the same people who complain about these problems are the very ones who resent reforming the EU to give more power to the Parliament, to limit states' veto powers, to restrict the influence of the national governments.

Regarding the Lisbon treaty - yeah, right. Voting against a treaty that would give the elected representatives more power. Great move.

 

An EU army - why not? It's not really necessary, though - we're way better off with NATO, anyway. Especially when it gets to standing up to Putin's meddling in Ukraine.

Edited by Varana
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Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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NATO didn't do **** in Ukraine.

 

No one was ready to risk WW3 over a flipped government there.

 

"Putin's meddling" is a fairly amusing way to describe the fallout of a US backed regime change operation.

Edited by Drowsy Emperor
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Ukraine is a topic for another thread, just this:

Yep, "meddling" is rather inadequate a word to describe an invasion of another country, annexing its territory, treating it as part of your "natural sphere of influence", and waging a semi-delared war there with thousands of casualties. I just borrowed Junai's words there.

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Therefore I have sailed the seas and come

To the holy city of Byzantium. -W.B. Yeats

 

Χριστός ἀνέστη!

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Well maybe if current government in Ukraine would not be very supportive of

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera

 

And maybe right after Majdan and election of new parliament, they did not revoke the Russian minority many of their rights, like removing Russian language from being official state language, the current situation would have looked completely different.

 

No one argues that taking of Crimea was illegal act, but so was the separation of Kosovo from Yugoslavia/Serbia.

 

When NATO forces a part of another nation to break from legitimate "owner" to save the Albanian minority from oppresion, it is OK, but god save Putin, because he decided to annect Crimea to save Russian minority from Ukrainian oppresion.

 

Such a scumbag...

 

Current NATO fearmongering against Russia does not serve anyone, well except the weapon business lobby.

 

This is also one of the reasons why EU and NATO are losing trust around Europe. Especially among the populace of east earopean nations.

 

And stuff like Barosso getting the job at Goldman Sachs few days ago, which undermines everything what was built in 70s and 80s.

 

It's hard to convince "smallfolk" now, that anything done during Barosso's leadership was done in their interest and not in the interests of financial lobby.

 

In a wake from this news, Britain leave is not surprising anymore and even me, as a person who is first European, and then Slovak, thinks, that if EU does not make hard reforms, it should burn.

Edited by Mamoulian War
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On the bright side, George Osborne has now resigned, tweeting "I hope I left the economy in a better state than when I found it"

That's like Godzilla wondering whether the inhabitants of Tokyo will "like what he's done with the place".

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