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[CLASS BUILD] Monksterlasher (elemental lashing & retaliating offensive tank)

class build monk

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#41
peddroelm

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10-15 monk  unarmed "weapon"/fist  BDR (base damage range)

5-8 non-monk kith unarmed "weapon"/fist   BDR .

 

(I'm trying to establish a common abbreviation system to build the weapon/ability damage mechanics "compendium" on top of ..)



#42
Boeroer

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A right. The monk got a special treatment. No wonder Novice's Suffering generally sucks. ;)



#43
Livegood118

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MIG also works for the dmg bonus of Transc. Suff. and Sandals by the way.

 

Is unmodified unarmed damage 10-15? I thought it's lower. Like 5-8 or something, can't remember.

 

You have to take into account that crits don't do as much damage with fists. The +0.5 crit modifier only works with the base damage of fists. Same is true for grazes. In the later game you will do more crits than grazes if you're not solo.

 

They are crush only, while Bittercut has two damage types.

 

But the biggest downside is that fists's ACC bonus don't apply to most abilitites of the monk: Torment's Reach, Flagellanth's Path, Force of Anguish - those will not get the ACC bonus. WHich is lame. They are still very good weapons (maybe the best for monk) for early and mid game.

 

Given the nerf to sabres the dichotomy on crits between fists and sabres on crits seems to be smaller than ever – i.e. 50% of 10–15 vs 50% + 15% (Durgan Steel) of 11–16.

 

My understanding was that crits were not calculated in reference to modified damage before DR but rather were calculated as a %of base damage.

 

That thing about the accuracy on Monk Abilities really stinks – and it's a shame it's probably going to make it in to the final version of the game ... maybe one last hail mary in the 3.04 thread?



#44
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Yes, with the monk's fists the crit/graze thing is not bad at all. I was referring to normal unarmed damage (which the monk doesn't have).

 

I don't think they will hotfix this - it's in the game from the beginning and some reports were made - nothing happened so far. :(



#45
Livegood118

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Well maybe this can get fixed by the community at some point in the future – now that the game is nearly "finished" we should put together a big list of remaining bugs and maybe get an official patch project going. We could kidnap Loren Tyr and force him to work on it  :biggrin:

 

Fists are still pretty damn good for auto-attacking though all things considered imo


Edited by Livegood118, 18 November 2016 - 03:11 AM.


#46
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That's true. And I love The Long Pain. They don't have the ACC and graze/crit issues (I guess), work in melee and ranged and work with nearly all monk abilites. Nowadays, I use it on every monk I play. :)



#47
Livegood118

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Yeah jesus the long pain is crazy – 24-36 base damage at level 16 ...

 

Just saw your Witchdoctor build: can easily add +90% base damage to these things ... which means around 45.5 – 68.5 which is nuts and seems to more than make up for the absence of turning wheel. Are we sure that this is the base damage on the weapons and not the weird +unarmed damage parameter that's used to boost up Novice/Transcendant Suffering?

 

Average modified hit with those would be 57 which to me seems to more than make up for the absence of turning wheel and you can still stack... 

 

+ 50% crushing lash from Torment's Reach (+28.5 damage)

+ 30% shocking lash from Lightning Strikes (+17.1 damage)
+ 20% raw lash from Blood Testament (+11.4 damage)
 
Which means on a typical hit you'd blast them for 114 Damage before DR on a non-crit. Ouch!
 
And, even better, you don't have to constantly keep up 10 wounds to get the most bang for your buck from them. 
 
I gotta try these things out ...

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#48
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Do it! :)

#49
Dr <3

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Yo i'm revamping this build, since i'm trying to create my own version: the punchbag monk

 

The concept is to kill opponen mostly using retaliation-kind effects.

 

So i have gone with a fire god-like, max con, max str, max per, dump dex

 

Items : yen whisper sword, sura supper plate, iron circle, hiros mantle, ring of protection, looped rope, shood of faith, blood testament, ryona brestplate

 

talents: sword & shield, vulnerable attack, savage attack, dualism mortal presence, veteran recovery, gallant focus, scion of flame, apprentice sneack attack, bear fortitude

 

Abilities: turning wheel, iron wheel, force of anguish, rooting pain, torment reach, suffering something and the weakening strykes (side-note: rooting pain targets fortitude, so weakened effect proved very useful)

 

main points are: 

get + 6 con from item, go around with round 450 life and high DR,  have good defences with a 140 in fortitude

 

actually it works better than expected, expecially after that the flame retaliation kicks in...

 

BUT

 

there are an awful lot of bugged things around, hence a fast resume:

- the DR penetration from vulnerable attack (and eventually from Ryona bracers) APPLY to normal attacks and retaliation from racial, shield and mantle; DOES NOT APPLY to rooting pain sadly

- blood testament gloves are uber bugged, works more or less 50% of the time, sometimes they work for a battle and not in the next, also in absence of saving or  reloads . Also when it works, like  the DR penetration, works for retaliation effects but NOT on rooting pain

- Weakening strykes gets applyed from normal attacks, main target in torment reach (not others in the cone) and from racial retaliation, up to now i have NOT observed it to be applyed after a retaliation effect from items (shield & mantle).

- Weakening stykes itself is also pretty bugged, sometime an enemy gets hit by the weakening effect but the effect is stated as suppressed in enemies tab. No idea why. Also if it is the only active effect.

- Stacking retaliation + effect on hit (binding rope, lavander wreath, Erlyn coat) usaully mean that the effect on hit does not work



#50
Braven

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Barbarian works good for retaliation too, since they have a class ability that stacks with all the other retaliation, a healing ability, frenzy (big health boost) and the highest natural endurance/health of any class. One thing I learned from the barbarian play through is that Aspirant's mark is really good with retaliation. The deflection debuff helps the accuracy of all those retaliation sources.

Monk has higher DR potiential, though. Wonder if that makes up for the lesser endurance. Do the lashes help retaliation?

#51
KDubya

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I'd say Monk is better than a Barbarian for the retaliation because when a Barbarian gets damaged he just gets closer to death but when a Monk gets damaged he gets more powerful.

 

I'd think fist and shield would work well for this, they have fast attack speed and average speed damage. Plus it'd look much cooler :)



#52
Dr <3

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Yeah turning wheel stacks with retaliation. And as barbarian have his own retaliation the monk has rooting pain, that is much better ( it does less DMG but in a aoe). In my experience monk is proving ti bè better for the punchbag approach.

#53
Braven

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I am not sure I agree that barbarians just get closer to death when taking damage.   They have a class ability that grants +25% damage when under 50% endurance, +20% when near at least two enemies (often the case).  I am not sure if those apply to retaliation damage or not (UI isn't clear), but that could be a large damage boost.  They also have the vengeful defeat ability should they run out of endurance which can be triggered multiple times with "second chance" item or other resurrect.  While it is true that monks get to actually use their abilities after they take damage, they start with basically no abilities without wounds, so it is not so much "normal" -> "strong" as it is "below average" -> "normal".  The higher endurance of barbarians (particularly with maxed out CON) means that the fire godlike racial will last longer making that retaliation source stronger too.

 

The biggest difference for me, though, is that barbarians actually have a good form of endurance regeneration, which can be extended with spell tongue and doubled with the dragon-maw shield (could switch back to the retaliation shield after the 1/encounter heal triggers).  Monks have nothing and must rely on other party members to stay alive or consumable items.

 

Regarding rooting pain vs barbaric retaliation, I don't think the (very small) AOE makes up for the much lower damage.  It also has lower accuracy because it targets fortitude (almost always higher than deflection and doesn't benefit from binding rope's "stuck" deflection debuff or Aspirant's Mark) and because it is crush damage, it can be greatly reduced by DR and does nothing to crush-immune enemies like the Alpine Dragon.  Barbaric retaliation is raw damage and would often trigger in the 30s for me and I even saw over 40 with critical hits and maxed might.  Against high DR enemies, barbaric retaliation does at least 5 times more damage even when not considering accuracy differences.  Large groups of enemies die nearly instantly to barbarians already because of heart of fury, one stands alone, and carnage so the fact it isn't AOE doesn't really matter;  single target damage is more important.

 

That said, I think they are both fine choices for a retaliation build.  I don't think that monks are clearly better and they are both good in different ways.


Edited by Braven, 21 December 2016 - 12:07 PM.

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#54
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What makes this special monk very good at retaliation is Turning Wheel + Battle-Forged + Scion of Flame + Blood Testament. But I guess that Battle-Forged + Blooded + One Stands Alone + Scion of Flame + Barbaric Ret. is also a nice combo. One should try and post a build. ;)

Edited by Boeroer, 21 December 2016 - 01:58 PM.


#55
Dr <3

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When i have time i will try all' craghold buffs with barbarian / monk and see wich One come out better. I bet on monk, But some of the ojection of braven make sense, it is just a matter of testing. Maybe blooded and stand alone can fill the gap left from missing turning wheel, we will see

Edit: btw yesterday my monk soloed alpine dragon at potd, with the aid of 2 flame shield potion, 2 war paints potion and 4-5 major healing potion, not bad. Tooked me 4-5 trials, but mainly to bugs related to the potion drinking animation ( start of animation but no actual healing effect)

Edited by Dr <3, 21 December 2016 - 02:58 PM.


#56
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+45% to damage is not bad of course (maybe added by +20% from higher MIG from Frenzy), but a lash should be better if the burn DR is not ridiculously high. Maybe the raw retaliation helps. Blood Thirst and Bloodlust ould be a good addition. They also trigger when retaliation kills stuff, making your attacks very fast even in the fattest armor with a two hander like Hours of Saint Rumbalt (I love that thing on a barb).

#57
Braven

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I noticed that the heart of fury damage buff can get extended forever with spelltongue. Not sure if that also helps retailate damage or not.

#58
Boeroer

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Yes, it's a nice side effect. Given enough enemies, HoF with Spelltongue also prolongs all currently active timed effects, even from potions/scrolls and so on for... like... forever. :) It's debateable if this is more powerful than the sheer damage or massive CC you could cause with other weapons, but it's nice nonetheless.

 

Hm, I actually never tried out HoF + Spelltongue + Potion of Infuse with Vital Essence. I can't remember if it has a healing over (very short) time or if it's instant (haven't played for some weeks now). If it's the first, a trah encounter could restore your whole health...



#59
Dr <3

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I have not finished all' test yet, but i'm still of my opinion that rooting pain > barbaric retaliation.
Ok, it hits fortitude, do crush DMG and do less DMG per hit BUT it activates every time you get a wound, not when you are hit in melee. Main advantage of this are
A) if you get hit by a strong hit rooting pain activate multiple times ( es 50 DMG = 5 activations)
B) all the mobs that surrounded you are hit ( when soloing is often 3-5 mobs)
C) if you are in a middle of a crown of range hitters ( languefath, archers, ecc ) you can DMG them with rooting pain ( ad long you get dmg) while bsrbaric retaliation wouldn't even work.
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#60
Boeroer

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But you have to spend your wounds quickly because after 10 your Rooting Pain won't trigger any more.
Rooting Pain has a nice synergy with Combusting Wounds (Ring of Searing Flames) by the way. It gets even better when you can add Pain Link via cipher.
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