Should the UK leave the EU?

[BruceVC]

"This must be one of the most inaccurate posts you have ever made?

 

You trolling I assume

 

Lets keep it simple....is there one thing in this post that is true?"

 

It's ALL true.

 

EU will do everything in its power to destroy Britain if it leaves. It has to. For its very surival. If Britian leaves and it doesn't fall  apart or *gasp*  does better it makes the EU look weak and unneeded. This is why an exited Britian needs to fail for the EU and the EU will do everything it can to help Britian's fall. From breaking/reneging on tretaies, to economic pressure.

 

If you think otherwise you don't get how real politik works.

No thats not accurate

 

If the UK leaves it will definitely survive....no one is seriously suggesting this will actually cause the collapse of either the UK or EU

 

But that's not the economic risk that has been raised but much of what I can list is hypothetical but it could happen

[Elerond]

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

 

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

[Oerwinde]

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

[BruceVC]

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

 

Good link but its just rhetoric, why would the UK allow that? If they do leave the EU the UK in fact would be more forceful and committed to stopping illegal immigrants. The UK is a small country and it could manage entry points effectively 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

 

Good link but its just rhetoric, why would the UK allow that? If they do leave the EU the UK in fact would be more forceful and committed to stopping illegal immigrants. The UK is a small country and it could manage entry points effectively 

 

 

It isn't rhetorical threat, but quite real thing that France can do if they want. It is what Russia did for Finland from December to February, they just let immigrant pass their border control and then these immigrant seek asylum from UK and because of what was agreed on 1951 Refugee Convention UK has to take them in and process their petition for asylum. Of course UK can denounce it but such action probably would cause them quite lot problems in UN.

[Zoraptor]

Pretty sure numbersman specifically addressed the Gibraltar threats a few pages back- it's just posturing for domestic consumption since Spain lacks a government and there are elections expected soon and the PP unsurprisingly wants votes. Spain will get Gibraltar when Morocco gets Ceuta back from Spain, ie not in the forseeable future.

 

'Administrative barriers' at the borders already happen pretty frequently anyway.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

 

Good link but its just rhetoric, why would the UK allow that? If they do leave the EU the UK in fact would be more forceful and committed to stopping illegal immigrants. The UK is a small country and it could manage entry points effectively 

 

 

It isn't rhetorical threat, but quite real thing that France can do if they want. It is what Russia did for Finland from December to February, they just let immigrant pass their border control and then these immigrant seek asylum from UK and because of what was agreed on 1951 Refugee Convention UK has to take them in and process their petition for asylum. Of course UK can denounce it but such action probably would cause them quite lot problems in UN.

 

You right about how I used the word rhetoric, I should have said " its rhetorical in the sense it wont impact the UK like France is suggesting " 

 

 

Not that France would do this but lets say France carried through with that threat and disbanded all the refugee camps  near the English Channel and stopped policing there side and said to all the immigrants " there is UK  we wont stop you " all that will mean is the UK  will be finally able to implement proper border control.....there will be less refugees in the UK as the UK allows a certain percentage of refugees into the UK only because they have to due to there EU responsibility 

[Elerond]

 

 

 

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

 

Good link but its just rhetoric, why would the UK allow that? If they do leave the EU the UK in fact would be more forceful and committed to stopping illegal immigrants. The UK is a small country and it could manage entry points effectively 

 

 

It isn't rhetorical threat, but quite real thing that France can do if they want. It is what Russia did for Finland from December to February, they just let immigrant pass their border control and then these immigrant seek asylum from UK and because of what was agreed on 1951 Refugee Convention UK has to take them in and process their petition for asylum. Of course UK can denounce it but such action probably would cause them quite lot problems in UN.

 

You right about how I used the word rhetoric, I should have said " its rhetorical in the sense it wont impact the UK like France is suggesting " 

 

 

Not that France would do this but lets say France carried through with that threat and disbanded all the refugee camps  near the English Channel and stopped policing there side and said to all the immigrants " there is UK  we wont stop you " all that will mean is the UK  will be finally able to implement proper border control.....there will be less refugees in the UK as the UK allows a certain percentage of refugees into the UK only because they have to due to there EU responsibility 

 

 

Currently UK can't say no for refugees that cross their border and seek asylum. It is what UK has agreed on when they signed UN's articles about refugee rights. Meaning that if France don't stop people that seek to go in UK to get asylum then UK don't actually can do anything else than take them process if they actually fulfill requirements to be refugee and if not sent them back to their home country if some other country don't take them. This scenario of course assumes that UK don't break their international agreements.

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Spain threatened to close the border with Gibraltar, I've seen some sources say they threatened to retake it, but I doubt that. France threatened to let migrants cross the channel unopposed.

Do you have any sources that countries have done such thing as official declaration, and not just some politician speaking poppy****. Like for example there are Russian politician that tell every year how Russia will reclaim Finland, but that is quite far from Russia itself threatening to reclaim Finland.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0W50PN

 

The Gibraltar one seems to be a few speculatory statement by the Spanish foreign minister taken as fact by several publications

 

Good link but its just rhetoric, why would the UK allow that? If they do leave the EU the UK in fact would be more forceful and committed to stopping illegal immigrants. The UK is a small country and it could manage entry points effectively 

 

 

It isn't rhetorical threat, but quite real thing that France can do if they want. It is what Russia did for Finland from December to February, they just let immigrant pass their border control and then these immigrant seek asylum from UK and because of what was agreed on 1951 Refugee Convention UK has to take them in and process their petition for asylum. Of course UK can denounce it but such action probably would cause them quite lot problems in UN.

 

You right about how I used the word rhetoric, I should have said " its rhetorical in the sense it wont impact the UK like France is suggesting " 

 

 

Not that France would do this but lets say France carried through with that threat and disbanded all the refugee camps  near the English Channel and stopped policing there side and said to all the immigrants " there is UK  we wont stop you " all that will mean is the UK  will be finally able to implement proper border control.....there will be less refugees in the UK as the UK allows a certain percentage of refugees into the UK only because they have to due to there EU responsibility 

 

 

Currently UK can't say no for refugees that cross their border and seek asylum. It is what UK has agreed on when they signed UN's articles about refugee rights. Meaning that if France don't stop people that seek to go in UK to get asylum then UK don't actually can do anything else than take them process if they actually fulfill requirements to be refugee and if not sent them back to their home country if some other country don't take them. This scenario of course assumes that UK don't break their international agreements.

 

You make some good points, all I'm saying is just because France fails to maintain its borders that will not suddenly mean thousands of refugees will overwhelm the UK and expect to be integrated 

[Raithe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0pwXLtvt2w

[213374U]

Referring to the EU as an "authoritarian regime" is a bit of a stretch. Excessively bureaucratic, opaque, and a cesspool of special interests? Sure. But "authoritarian" is putting it right up there with Iran, which is, I guess, exactly the kind of histrionics you've been saying the debate is dominated by in the UK. And I'm not exactly the most pro-EU guy around.

 

Regardless, the referendum isn't binding. I've been reading that "political realities" would "force" Cameron to go ahead and invoke art. 50 TEU to begin the process to take the UK out of the EU. But again, the referendum isn't binding, and it wouldn't be the first time a PM outright disregards a non-binding referendum (cf. Tsipras). So even in the -extremely- unlikely scenario that the Leave option wins out on the 23rd, I wouldn't count on the UK actually going anywhere...

[BruceVC]

Referring to the EU as an "authoritarian regime" is a bit of a stretch. Excessively bureaucratic, opaque, and a cesspool of special interests? Sure. But "authoritarian" is putting it right up there with Iran, which is, I guess, exactly the kind of histrionics you've been saying the debate is dominated by in the UK. And I'm not exactly the most pro-EU guy around.

 

Regardless, the referendum isn't binding. I've been reading that "political realities" would "force" Cameron to go ahead and invoke art. 50 TEU to begin the process to take the UK out of the EU. But again, the referendum isn't binding, and it wouldn't be the first time a PM outright disregards a non-binding referendum (cf. Tsipras). So even in the -extremely- unlikely scenario that the Leave option wins out on the 23rd, I wouldn't count on the UK actually going anywhere...

Well I am surprised 2133....pleasantly surprised. You somehow found a way to not attack and undermine the EU..even if its a small positive step forward

 

And you right its not a authoritarian regime 

[Elerond]

 

Referring to the EU as an "authoritarian regime" is a bit of a stretch. Excessively bureaucratic, opaque, and a cesspool of special interests? Sure. But "authoritarian" is putting it right up there with Iran, which is, I guess, exactly the kind of histrionics you've been saying the debate is dominated by in the UK. And I'm not exactly the most pro-EU guy around.

 

Regardless, the referendum isn't binding. I've been reading that "political realities" would "force" Cameron to go ahead and invoke art. 50 TEU to begin the process to take the UK out of the EU. But again, the referendum isn't binding, and it wouldn't be the first time a PM outright disregards a non-binding referendum (cf. Tsipras). So even in the -extremely- unlikely scenario that the Leave option wins out on the 23rd, I wouldn't count on the UK actually going anywhere...

Well I am surprised 2133....pleasantly surprised. You somehow found a way to not attack and undermine the EU..even if its a small positive step forward

 

And you right its not a authoritarian regime 

 

 

EU is collective democratic regime (meaning collection of independent democratic countries that have decided by themselves and freely to participate in bigger democratic institution to achieve common goals) where lots of decision making process is obscured by bureaucracy and complex power structure. And things are made worse by countries government using confusion caused by EU's complexity and distance from general public as scapegoat for unpopular decision that they themselves haven been part of making.

 

Of course collective democratic regime can be seen that individual country is losing its power to decide about things by themselves because there are things where they need to come in agreement with wider community. But in other hand leaving such collective regime don't mean that you don't need to come in agreements with other countries anymore. But of course if country and its population has fundamental disagreement about where things should go than rest of the countries in said collective regime then leaving that regime is probably best for their own interests.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Referring to the EU as an "authoritarian regime" is a bit of a stretch. Excessively bureaucratic, opaque, and a cesspool of special interests? Sure. But "authoritarian" is putting it right up there with Iran, which is, I guess, exactly the kind of histrionics you've been saying the debate is dominated by in the UK. And I'm not exactly the most pro-EU guy around.

 

Regardless, the referendum isn't binding. I've been reading that "political realities" would "force" Cameron to go ahead and invoke art. 50 TEU to begin the process to take the UK out of the EU. But again, the referendum isn't binding, and it wouldn't be the first time a PM outright disregards a non-binding referendum (cf. Tsipras). So even in the -extremely- unlikely scenario that the Leave option wins out on the 23rd, I wouldn't count on the UK actually going anywhere...

Well I am surprised 2133....pleasantly surprised. You somehow found a way to not attack and undermine the EU..even if its a small positive step forward

 

And you right its not a authoritarian regime 

 

 

EU is collective democratic regime (meaning collection of independent democratic countries that have decided by themselves and freely to participate in bigger democratic institution to achieve common goals) where lots of decision making process is obscured by bureaucracy and complex power structure. And things are made worse by countries government using confusion caused by EU's complexity and distance from general public as scapegoat for unpopular decision that they themselves haven been part of making.

 

Of course collective democratic regime can be seen that individual country is losing its power to decide about things by themselves because there are things where they need to come in agreement with wider community. But in other hand leaving such collective regime don't mean that you don't need to come in agreements with other countries anymore. But of course if country and its population has fundamental disagreement about where things should go than rest of the countries in said collective regime then leaving that regime is probably best for their own interests.

 

You know  a lot about the EU, I always find these types of posts interesting 

[Meshugger]

Relevant considering the upcoming election.

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Horrifically, Jo Cox has been shot and stabbed by Brexit-fanatic outside a library in the Leeds area.

 

All campaigning has ceased, both Leave and Stay.

[BruceVC]

Horrifically, Jo Cox has been shot and stabbed by Brexit-fanatic outside a library in the Leeds area.

 

All campaigning has ceased, both Leave and Stay.

She has died, terrible incident 

[Malcador]

He said: "The man stepped back with the gun and fired it and then he fired a second shot, as he was firing he was looking down at the ground."

 

"He was kicking her as she was lying on the floor", he said.

Crazy.

[Meshugger]

Jesus christ.

 

RIP.

[Wrath of Dagon]

What's the evidence he was a "Brexit fanatic"? Reports say he was mentally ill. Also what happened with that famous British gun control?

Edited June 16, 2016 by Wrath of Dagon

[Elerond]

What's the evidence he was a "Brexit fanatic"? Reports say he was mentally ill. Also what happened with that famous British gun control?

 

There are eye witness reports that he shouted 'Britain First' which is anti EU party in UK.

 

Also UK don't have total ban of guns. Although reports say that he used home made gun.

Edited June 16, 2016 by Elerond

[Raithe]

What's the evidence he was a "Brexit fanatic"? Reports say he was mentally ill. Also what happened with that famous British gun control?

 

To be fair, we've had about a dozen (maybe?) mass shootings in over a century, compared to that in the last decade in the US. Plus, the early reports are that the weapon he used was a handmade gun. So, backyard DIY apparently for the win there.

[Gfted1]

Huh, Ive never seen a zipgun with more than one shot. I would be interested in seeing a picture of it if it ever becomes available.

[JadedWolf]

Sad. A lot will probably be said about the reasons and possible prevention for something like this, but the truth is that there is not much you can do against lone wolf attacks like this. Let's hope for calmness and rationality, and that people will withhold from pointing fingers at each other or use events like this to score points in the political debate.

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

What's the evidence he was a "Brexit fanatic"? Reports say he was mentally ill. Also what happened with that famous British gun control?

 

There are eye witness reports that he shouted 'Britain First' which is anti EU party in UK.

 

Also UK don't have total ban of guns. Although reports say that he used home made gun.

 

Apparently that claim has now been withdrawn: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/06/16/breaking-labour-mp-jo-cox-shot-stabbed-constituency-surgery-yorkshire/

 

Although we'll probably have to wait a while longer to be sure as most initial reports are wrong.