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rheingold

Monsieur Galvino's House of fun.

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Is it just me who thinks that Galvino's cottage is just about the worst game design ever? I mean, if you where attempting to make an example of how not to design a level then this is what you'd come up with. It's kinda like a dev gave the tools to his or her 5 year old child and this is what they came up with.

Don't get me wrong I love the game and I thought the devs did a great job, but the cabin! Really.

 

It makes no sense from any perspective.

An old crazy coot travels to the ass end of the world to experiment/torture people, presumably away from prying eyes. I can live with this, no problem with the character or motivations....

But he gets kicked out of town goes North and finds a small cottage and proceeds to build a huge underground labyrinth filled with crazed test subjects.

So where does he get the resources to build his lab? The cottage just happens to have an extensive underground cellar? It's filled with traps and his creations. In spite of the fact that he receives regular visits from adventurers. Who presumably have to kill everything and disarm the traps before they speak to him. So how does he keep his batch of psychos topped up and ready to fight any new intruders?

 

Then there is the rather irritating process of actually trying to speak to him. I can live with the overpowered automatons. It's painful and slow to get through them but it can be done, but the traps.... oh the traps....

In a moment of great game design they have put really high level traps, I have yet to have a character who can actually disable them, short of getting lucky with the gauntlets of mechanics (random drop) or getting the mechanics bonus from Caed Nua or having a rogue. As for a rogue, well the only rogue in the game is at the end of the dungeon.

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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I take it you're not a fan of reading notes found in the environment.

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"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Um, yeah I get that he uses the devil to find subjects.... But the whole situation with him is really strange.... Again where does he get the resources to build an underground labyrinth, how did the leaden key company and all the previous groups of adventures get through his dungeon? Did they also have to fight their way through to see him. If so, they must have been beastly, how on earth did they die against the ogres later. If they didn't fight their way through, why does the watcher have to. Galvino is actually not particularly aggressive, so why do you have to fight your way just to ask a couple of questions. Which I might add, he is only too happy to answer. The whole episode doesn't make much sense, it's like someone was told, "make a tough dungeon crawl, doesn't need a story, it just needs to be difficult."

I wouldn't have minded if the dungeon was actually fun, but it's really painful. Not least because of the traps. And then the blasted rogue is at the end of the dungeon. It's just bad design, it's not well thought out at all. Which is odd because the rest of the game is great.

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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I thought the encounters were fun, (especially with the exploding enemies) but there are a few too many fights. Also the big size of the underground place makes no sense to me.

 

EDIT: I think the idea of the test subjects makes sense though, with all the notes around. The other adventurers might have arrived on days where there were fewer subjects.

Edited by Marky

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 how did the leaden key company and all the previous groups of adventures get through his dungeon? 

Did they have to? As you've already pointed out, there was a perfectly serviceable cottage at ground level. Just because you happened to catch him in his workshop, we should assume that it's canon that other visitors have also?

 

For the record, he also mentions previously having sponsors in the Republics. It's probably safe to assume that sponsorship was generous and that even after it dried up, he still had some resources at this disposal. Which he then supplemented via whatever possessions were acquired along with his test subjects maybe?


"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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I just figured it was a similar situation to the mill in Dyrford, it happens to sit on top of a big underground complex.  Maybe it's the former headquarters of some weird cult!  Galvino found it and figured it would be useful to have a lot of space.

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 how did the leaden key company and all the previous groups of adventures get through his dungeon? 

Did they have to? As you've already pointed out, there was a perfectly serviceable cottage at ground level. Just because you happened to catch him in his workshop, we should assume that it's canon that other visitors have also?

 

For the record, he also mentions previously having sponsors in the Republics. It's probably safe to assume that sponsorship was generous and that even after it dried up, he still had some resources at this disposal. Which he then supplemented via whatever possessions were acquired along with his test subjects maybe?

 

Look it is possible. But my issue is mainly it's just completely over done. The dungeon just goes on and on. There are too many tests subjects either for the story or for fun. And the traps are really painful. I really think pillars is a great game - one of the best I have played, a great story and game play, but every time I start a new play through I just cringe at having to go through the place.


"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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I agree with all Rheingold said. Honestly, I feel RPG developers have some strange obsession in undead filled dungeons, they seem to fit them in the most awkward places ever.

Edited by DreamWayfarer

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The overuse of floor traps is a RPG-trope I'd love to see go the way of the Dodo. It was much worse in the Infinity Engine games, at least. 

 

Please don't get me wrong. Stuff should be trapped, and traps should be dangerous. But it's simply impractical to leave large swaths of your living space / lair/ laboratory / whatever in that state. It feels gamey, and not like a living world. 

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Magran's fire casts light in Dark Places...

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The overuse of floor traps is a RPG-trope I'd love to see go the way of the Dodo. It was much worse in the Infinity Engine games, at least. 

 

Please don't get me wrong. Stuff should be trapped, and traps should be dangerous. But it's simply impractical to leave large swaths of your living space / lair/ laboratory / whatever in that state. It feels gamey, and not like a living world. 

This... Can you imagine having a dinner party at the place, kids running around - Galvino would be sued!

Seriously absolutely traps need to be in the game but just more care about where they are placed. Also would be nice if they gave you the tools to disarm them - ie a rogue or the gloves of mechanics.


"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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Whilst the trope can be annoying, Galvino is exactly the sort of person to leave more traps around whenever he's hosting a dinner party involving small children.

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I agree that the design of Galvino's Workshop felt more like from a dungeon crawler, where you're expected to kill monsters left and right and don't bat an eyelash when it doesn't make sense, than in a story-driven game like Pillars. At least once you've found that the location is brimming with mechanical enemies the presence of traps makes sense, since it's a mechanical workshop. What really trips me up is how come there are a lot of monsters in Cliaban Rilag and they've never walked into the traps in those narrow corridors in all the time they've been there, but somehow my team does.

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Traps made sense for Galvino's dungeon because of the mechanical theme.  I don't think the separate living quarters up and downstairs make a ton of sense, but the richness of the materials don't.  I didn't think about that.  Maybe he should have taken over an abandoned mine and spruced it up.  That makes more sense.

 

Also, I would have liked to see wooden machines.

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By "machines" do you mean animats?


"Art and song are creations but so are weapons and lies"

"Our worst enemies are inventions of the mind. Pleasure. Fear. When we see them for what they are, we become unstoppable."

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Whilst the trope can be annoying, Galvino is exactly the sort of person to leave more traps around whenever he's hosting a dinner party involving small children.

"I'm sorry your child has been hurt. There might a chance to save his life. I can transfer his soul in this cute little automaton that I have just finished yesterday, by chance."

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Agree, while there are parts of the place I like it feels like too much for what is essentially a small encounter and the dungeon I find tedious.  


"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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This thread has gone on for too long without this correction.

 

Mestre Galvino, you uncouth lout.

Have a look at my profile pic :) Does he look "couth"?

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"Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them."
"So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?"
"You choose the wrong adjective."
"You've already used up all the others.”

 

Lord of Light

 

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I agree that the design of Galvino's Workshop felt more like from a dungeon crawler, where you're expected to kill monsters left and right and don't bat an eyelash when it doesn't make sense, than in a story-driven game like Pillars. At least once you've found that the location is brimming with mechanical enemies the presence of traps makes sense, since it's a mechanical workshop. What really trips me up is how come there are a lot of monsters in Cliaban Rilag and they've never walked into the traps in those narrow corridors in all the time they've been there, but somehow my team does.

Galvinos creatures must all know how to hover 5cm above ground, because the can not trigger the traps, I tried it multiple times, nothing happens.

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