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[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

Mechanics Attack Speed Recovery Base Values

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#141
AlexKidd

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Yes, I definitely meant that :)

 

Thank for the explanation, brainfart moment.

 

 

OT:

 

 

Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush

 

 

One of my first edits actually, back then I was feeling optimistic enough to make it a soulbound weapon before the lack of modding tools killed my mood. I settled to this:

 

4oWjvH9.png

 

 

Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter

 

 

And that's an example of why I'm damn reluctant about making anything public, too many controversial approaches to a single player game. I'm a old BG/NWN tryhard and too many per-encounter stuff goes against my desire of having to balance resources between rests. Heck I made HoF/Charge/Sacred Immolation 2/rest, people would riot :p Seriously, having low-level abilities per-encounter are okay, they help defining classes without letting them auto-attack the whole time; it's just when you have 10+ per-encounter skills that every fight tends to be approached with the same routine.

 

/OT

 



#142
AlexKidd

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Josh has mentioned extracting the stats and storing them in xml format


Hey that's good news, I'm used to xml from Civ games^^. Even if a Near Infinity successor would be a dream...

No. Armor penalties / penalty reductions do not apply to reloading duration in PoE1.

duh, I skipped the fine print somewhere looks like. Then I just edit ZC description again

while I was initially fond of this ability, I've quickly found that it gets suppressed by a lot of things and is useful mostly for party rogues, as they don't have frenzy, time parasite, daom spell.

I came to the same conclusion while looking at the hastening exhortation, made that one a +50% (still 3/rest); VV seems okay for my poverty/minimal rests runs and is cheap early game, beside making it last a lil longer not sure what's needed there.
It looks like all orders have one "oomph" defining skill and one that can be safely skipped/retrained out though, definitely worth focus on that... after my other 247289 priorities

Make it 15% instead of 10% :)

15% aoe vs 20% self with Confident Aim Armored Grace, wouldn't be too much? Or you feel AG is weak as well?
 
Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making... :p

Edited by AlexKidd, 18 September 2017 - 03:14 AM.


#143
MaxQuest

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I am always reluctant when I have to use something per-rest, unless I am 100% that the party will rest after the fight.
When I am looking at Binding Roots... it's either:
- do I really want to use a per-rest resource in in this easy fight? or
- ok this is a boss fight, but the ability is to weak to even get casted


As for Durance staff: that's great :)... but making it priest-only, ohh.. there goes my intent to use it on melee cipher or barbarian)

 

I came to the same conclusion while looking at the hastening exhosrtation, made that one a +50% (still 3/rest); VV seems okay for my poverty/minimal rests runs and is cheap early game, beside making it last a lil longer not sure what's needed there.

Make it 15% instead of 10% :)

15% aoe vs 20% self with Confident Aim Armored Grace, wouldn't be too much? Or you feel AG is weak as well?
 
Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making... :p

Armored Grace is great as is. And a major role in that plays the fact that it stacks with everything. Also it has no opportunity cost.

While Zealous Charge does have such a cost - as you can't use Zealous Focus / Endurance at the same time. Also, ZC comes with aura radius. At the same time quite often you would like to place your squishies at 10-12 range, because distance is used in target preferences estimations. 

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 September 2017 - 03:18 AM.


#144
AlexKidd

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I am always reluctant when I have to use something per-rest, unless I am 100% that the party will rest after the fight.
When I am looking at Binding Roots... it's either:
- do I really want to use a per-rest resource in in this easy fight? or
- ok this is a boss fight, but the ability is to weak to even get casted

I think up to level 9, with no-game changing abilities, a per-rest option is actually okay, so would probably try that. I have to be honest though, I never played a ranger on PoE so a bit clueless here :) I'm probably one of the few people happy about the max party limit of 5 in Deadfire... 6 feels clunky and 6+pet (or more!) is too much for me

As for Durance staff: that's great :)... but making it priest-only, ohh.. there goes my intent to use it on melee cipher or barbarian)

I give with one hand... and take away with the other :p It's nice for the Magran's feat to work with that but having it usable by anybody would probably make it the best weapon ever. At least can roleplay some player-made priest stealing it. Heck I toyed with making it undroppable but that made it impossible to switch weapon set, quite sad.

Armored Grace is great as is. And a major role in that plays the fact that it stacks with everything. Also it has no opportunity cost.

While Zealous Charge does have such a cost - as you can't use Zealous Focus / Endurance at the same time. Also, ZC comes with aura radius. At the same time quite often you would like to place your squishies at 10-12 range, because distance is used in target preferences estimations.

I'd say that then the opportunity cost of Armored Grace is not being able to take Clear Out at the same level, or something you skipped earlier, and if those picks are that much inferior to AG, then it's about buffing them a lil or tone down the latter. With the aura being a defining ability of the Paladin on the other hand, I can be more generous with buffs there.


Too much OT now, about that Community Balance Patch...

Edited by AlexKidd, 18 September 2017 - 03:29 AM.


#145
AlexKidd

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Test done, -ArmorPen modal stacks with durgan refined armor (that's with a breastplate - base 0.6 ArmorSpeedFactor), or Pilf's gloves, not both (well that would have been obvious, if only I checked your tool earlier).

#146
MaxQuest

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Am I understanding it right?:
0.6 - base
0.7 - with just ZC
0.85 - with ZC and DurganizedArmor
0.85 - with ZC and DurganizedArmor and Pilferer Gloves
 
Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

 

Tbh, I was going to ask you in the Community Bug Fixes thread if anything like a Community Balance Patch was in the making... :p

Indeed I had such an idea.
Wanted to gauge first how useful will community find those bug fixes, and collect feedback.
So far I've decided to check/fix/tweak stuff that affects my party directly; as it's quite time consuming.

P.S. Btw, when you write OT, do you mean OnTopic or OffTopic?)

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 September 2017 - 04:23 AM.


#147
AlexKidd

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Am I understanding it right?


yes

Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

yes
NmgssyZ.png

P.S. Btw, when you write OT, do you mean OnTopic or OffTopic?)

yes, I mean, Off Topic. And when you type ), do you mean :) ?



Edit:

Wanted to gauge first how useful will community find those bug fixes, and collect feedback.


Very. I already halved Dragon Trashed damage :p And it's still good :o I rolled my eyes a bit at the 'total overhaul' comment, wonder how my stuff would rate. Now toying a bit with having different phrase count requirement for invocations belonging to the same tier, and generally aiming at having a class that doesn't just do 2-3 things good and is left on autopilot /rant.

Edited by AlexKidd, 18 September 2017 - 04:59 AM.

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#148
MaxQuest

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Do ZC + Pilferer Gloves result in 0.8?

yes

Great)
 

And when you type ), do you mean :) ?

Unless there is an opening bracket before it, it means that I smile, yes) But not from ear to ear like this one: :) Rather like this one: LQmT1gv.png
 

Very. I already halved Dragon Trashed damage :p And it's still good :o I rolled my eyes a bit at the 'total overhaul' comment, wonder how my stuff would rate.

Hah, calling it an overhaul was a big stretch.
 

Now toying a bit with having different phrase count requirement for invocations belonging to the same tier, and generally aiming at having a class that doesn't just do 2-3 things good and is left on autopilot /rant.

I was always thinking that it would be great if chanter started at 1, instead of 0 chants count.

Edited by MaxQuest, 18 September 2017 - 05:20 AM.


#149
JerekKruger

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I was always thinking that it would be great if chanter started at 1, instead of 0 chants count.

 

It's actually kind of odd that they don't. For every phrase after the first you get your chant point as soon as you start it, but the first phrase doesn't give you a chant point at all.



#150
Lampros

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It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand! ;)



#151
JerekKruger

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It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand! ;)

 

Doubtful. I think the power of Chanters isn't that well know, and it was even less so in the past.


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#152
Lampros

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It's probably a device to ensure that a class that is already OP does not get more out of hand! ;)

 

Doubtful. I think the power of Chanters isn't that well know, and it was even less so in the past.

 

 

Hmmm, true. Devs rarely see OP potentials unless expert players point it out to them - repeatedly.


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#153
Dr <3

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(random balance suggestions are also welcome)

I've got a few...:
- Allow cipher to cast Pain Block and Going Between on himself
- Allow cipher to cast Amplified Wave on charmed targets
- Mind Wave prone duration was stealhtly nerfed 5s => 3s. Imho it should be 4s.
- Mind Wave visual cone originates from caster. Should be from target.
- Mind Blades is quite weak in practice: early on there is a high chance to miss/graze which will stop it's propagation.

- Make Frenzy instant. It's quite annoying to have to wait for it's animation before using BB/HoF. Not to mention that AI tends to use Frenzy AFTER Barbaric Blow.
- Reduce lvl requirement for rogue's Sap from 11 -> 7 or 9.
- Buff Dirty Fighting: 10% -> 15%. This will increase the extra crit chance from 5% to 7.5%.
- Make Vielo Vidorio speed buff, affect Pallegina as well

- Ranger's Binding Roots: 5 per rest -> 2 per encounter
- Ranger's Thorny Roots: single instance of 15 slash + 15 pierce damage -> 5 slash + 10 pierce per 3s

- Swap damage types on Durance's Staff: crush + burn -> burn + crush
- Hold the Line talent: +1 engagement => +1 engagement and +1 to endurance-to-hp coefficient OR +200 health.

Based on your knowledge, is it going to stack with Armored Grace/DurganSteel/Pilferer's Grip? I think so but can't really spot the small difference in frames in-game.

Uhh. This -10% armor speed penalty from ZC will definitely stack with Armored Grace (ofc the finaly penalty still won't go below zero).

As for stacking with DurganizedArmor enchant / Pilferer's Grip it's hard to say. And it's better to test it.
For example:
- take a naked character with 3 DEX
- equip him in durganized hide armor
- give him two sabres/swords/maces/warhammers
- affect him with this modded Zealous Charge aura
- drink DAoM potion, and watch him attacking

If ZC stacks with DurganizedArmor, you will have:
- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 0 frames recovery

And if they don't stack:
- 5 frames delay -> 38 frames attack -> 6.3 frames recovery (you will be able to notice a quick line running for 0.2 seconds; if not you can use fraps)

Should I also edit the Armored Grace talent description? It says Recovery Penalty only but Reload is also affected, right?

No, Armored Grace does not affect reloading duration in PoE1. It probably will in Deadfire though.

Plz, all of this, expecially the chiper part!

#154
Kaylon

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No need to test Pilferer's Grip - its effect is shown as suppressed if you wear a durgan enchanted armor.



#155
Boeroer

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Yes, gets suppressed. Same as the Colored Coat's "sly" enchantment.

Also, Hirbel's Protective Skin's crit-to-hit conversion gets suppressed by durgan steel as well. 



#156
AlexKidd

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What is the effect of AttackVariation?

 

Also, any idea where does the spiritshift cat gets its extra attack/recovery buff from (not the 1/day flurry ability, just the standard attacks)?

Speedfactor on the claw item is the same for all shapes.



#157
MaxQuest

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What is the effect of AttackVariation?

It's the visual animation of the attack.
 

Also, any idea where does the spiritshift cat gets its extra attack/recovery buff from (not the 1/day flurry ability, just the standard attacks)?
Speedfactor on the claw item is the same for all shapes.

I suppose it could be overwritten in some MonoBehaviour from other asset.
Take a look at global.unity3d and especially at ingameglobal.unity3d. Good luck finding the right MB though)

#158
Lampros

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So I have been doing a lot of reading on this topic the whole week - as well as fiddling around with the PoE Speed Calculator. And it appears that almost every speed-related enchants, spells, gear, and potions only reduce recovery time and not the time it takes to perform the actual action itself? Further, only Dexterity affects the latter? Am I correct? It's a bit counter-intuitive, if this is the case. In particular, I was surprised to find - if the PoE Speed Calculator is indeed correct - that even the weight of armor does not affect the time it takes to perform actions.



#159
Phenomenum

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Yes, correct: Dexterity is the only one stat in game which affect on time to perform actions (animation speed)


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#160
Lampros

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Yes, correct: Dexterity is the only one stat in game which affect on time to perform actions (animation speed)

 

Thanks for the confirmation!







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Mechanics, Attack Speed, Recovery, Base Values

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