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[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

Mechanics Attack Speed Recovery Base Values

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#101
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Where is the "donate" button?
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#102
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Hehe, haven't considered it yet)



#103
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"Maxquest foundation for noobs & casual players" With the founds raised you can finance every year 1 student in the Poe attack speed & other mechanichs science department.
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#104
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MaxQuest - that piece of software is great. I mean not only that you put in all the formulas and stuff - but also the usability is superb. Not too much info, not too much fuzz, slick and all. And as far as I can see it now also works correctly. Fat thumbs up - from a software developer (if that means anything). :)

 

Please put a link into the wiki - will prevent a lot of questions here. ;)

 

Also have a look at this: http://forums.obsidi...-calculatorwip/

 

Maybe you guys could come up with a really good solution which covers both or something. 


Edited by Boeroer, 05 April 2017 - 01:43 AM.

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#105
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One thing: there are no fists. I don't know if The Long Pain have different values for speed than normal fists.



#106
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When I attack with my monk with the long pain (Swift Strikes, Two Weapon style, padded armor - nothing else) I don't see any recovery (maybe it's too short to be noticed) while the calculator says that there should be recovery left (used stilettos instead). Or maybe my eyes are too old to notice 7 frames of recovery? ;)



#107
Kaylon

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Fists are fast weapons (in theory you could use only 2 weapon types for the calculator).

For the recovery it depends what dexterity you have - with less than 6dex you should always see it, while with higher dexterity it will start being skipped (and it should be 0.7frames, not 7frames ;)).


Edited by Kaylon, 05 April 2017 - 02:42 AM.


#108
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Maybe, but for example stilettos have less frames than daggers in MaxQuests calculator (albeit only slightly less).

 

My DEX is 17.

 

Another thing: according to the calculator a chanter with Outlander's Frenzy & Sure Handed Ila with durganized Hold-Wall and durganized leather and Guntlets of Swift Action should have no recovery (and maybe has a bit buffer, too - not talking about reloading here). But a test chanter I made (with 24 DEX) still has a recovery bar - not a big one, but it was visible. Thoughts?


Edited by Boeroer, 05 April 2017 - 03:27 AM.


#109
Kaylon

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Yes, it seems there's a bug in the calculator with Sure Handed Ila - it doesn't apply the 20% recovery reduction, just the reload reduction...


Edited by Kaylon, 05 April 2017 - 04:18 AM.


#110
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Erm - but in my game it was actually slower than in the calculator. :biggrin:


Edited by Boeroer, 05 April 2017 - 04:36 AM.


#111
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Another thing: You can't choose one handed single weapon and "nothing" for the offhand. Of course you could always pick a simple nn-durganized shield and get the same results. I mean just for convenience and to avoid confusion of less experienced players.

 

edit: Mind you - I'm not bashing or criticising the software. Jut want to give some hints from a user's perspective. Still totally overwhelmed by its awesomeness. :)


Edited by Boeroer, 05 April 2017 - 04:38 AM.

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#112
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MaxQuest - that piece of software is great. I mean not only that you put in all the formulas and stuff - but also the usability is superb. Not too much info, not too much fuzz, slick and all. And as far as I can see it now also works correctly. Fat thumbs up - from a software developer (if that means anything). :)

Thanks)
 

Please put a link into the wiki - will prevent a lot of questions here. ;)

Sure. But I have planned to review the calculator first, in order to be sure that everything is 100% right.
Atm I'm getting closer to a deadline through, and this will have to wait till weekend.
 

Also have a look at this: http://forums.obsidi...-calculatorwip/
Maybe you guys could come up with a really good solution which covers both or something.

Maybe.

I was thinking about making a damage calculator as a separate utility, where you could copy-paste the computed speed-data json-string. (again, if I'll have time and desire to do so).
While Livegood118 has adviced to add damage section to existing speed calculator. 
Interesting what would be the preffered way (assuming that it would possible to add such section AND make it both comfortable from UX point of view and responsive for mobile).
 

One thing: there are no fists. I don't know if The Long Pain have different values for speed than normal fists.

I haven't added fists yet, because they require extra logic.
Character can dual-wield with fist in main-hand and sabre in off-hand; but can't viceversa. Also if would have to force fists to be considered dual-wielding, I would have to link both wieldable selects. I.e. I have to think first what are possible combinations, how they should be selected and linked together.

As for long pain - tbh I never tested their attack/recovery. This will have to wait till weekend.
 

When I attack with my monk with the long pain (Swift Strikes, Two Weapon style, padded armor - nothing else) I don't see any recovery (maybe it's too short to be noticed) while the calculator says that there should be recovery left (used stilettos instead). Or maybe my eyes are too old to notice 7 frames of recovery?

I've made an error: Swift Strikes were considered as 0.20 bonus, instead of 0.25. (updated the calculator now)

Swift Strikes = 1.20
recovery_coef = max(0, 1 - 2 * (0.4 - 0.2)) / 1.2 =  0.6 / 1.2 = 0.5
attack_duration (at 10 DEX) = 19.1 (assuming it is indeed like that of stilletos)
attack_duration (at 17 DEX) = 15.8
recovery_duration (at 17 DEX) = 15.8 * 0.5 = 7.9 frames

Swift Strikes = 1.25
recovery_coef = max(0, 1 - 2 * (0.45 - 0.2)) / 1.2 =  0.5 / 1.2 = 0.41
recovery_duration (at 17 DEX) = 15.8 * 0.41 = 6.4 frames

Even with Swift Strikes (1.25) there is still some recovery remaining.
There would be recovery even if Swift Strikes would stack multiplicatively with Two-Weapon Style.
recovery_coef = max(0, 1 - 2 * ((1.25 * 1.2 - 1) - 0.2)) / 1.2 =  0.4 / 1.2 = 0.33
recovery_duration (at 17 DEX) = 15.8 * 0.33 = 5.2 frames

Are you sure that your padded armor is not durganized? In that case the recovery would be 3.2 frames, which indeed could be unnoticed.
 

Another thing: according to the calculator a chanter with Outlander's Frenzy & Sure Handed Ila with durganized Hold-Wall and durganized leather and Guntlets of Swift Action should have no recovery (and maybe has a bit buffer, too - not talking about reloading here). But a test chanter I made (with 24 DEX) still has a recovery bar - not a big one, but it was visible. Thoughts?

speed_coef = (1.25*1.15*1.15*1.2 - 1) + 0.2 - 0.5 - (0.3 - 0.15) = 0.98 + 0.3 - 0.15 = 1.13
recovery_coef = max(0, 1 - 2 * 1.13) / 1.2 =  0

Hmm, it's indeed zero recovery.
Are you sure that chanter's Hold Wall is indeed durganized? And that he is not affected by any negative effects? (Dazed, Cautious Attack)
 

Fists are fast weapons (in theory you could use only 2 weapon types for the calculator).

Technically 4 :)
very fast: 0.636s attack duration (stilletos and rapier) (when frapsing it's almost unoticeable; but extended log reports this exact value)
fast: 0.666s attack duration (the rest of fast melee weapons)
average: 1s attack duration (medium and slow melee weapons; fast ranged weapons)
slow: 1.5s attack duration (average and slow ranged weapons)
 

Yes, it seems there's a bug in the calculator with Sure Handed Ila - it doesn't apply the 20% recovery reduction, just the reload reduction...

There are two Sure-Handed Ila effects in calculator: one in RateOfFireMult (affects recovery) and second in ReloadSpeedCoef (affects reloading) :)
Have linked them together now, such that one you enable one, the second is enabled as well, and viceversa.
 

Another thing: You can't choose one handed single weapon and "nothing" for the offhand. Of course you could always pick a simple nn-durganized shield and get the same results. I mean just for convenience and to avoid confusion of less experienced players.

True) Along with fists it didn't make into current release.
I didn't want to add "nothing" as quick solution, because "durganized nothing" could cause confustion as well :)

Edited by MaxQuest, 05 April 2017 - 05:05 AM.

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#113
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Definitely put me down for having a one-stop shop damage calculating utility. 

 

I feel like any time someone's trying to work out their attack speed it's probably a means to an end to working out overall damage of a character, or giving a pretty good indication of that. To that extent, having it on the same page seems to make sense. Given how neatly presented/tight the attack speed information is if all someone wanted to do was to work it out they could probably just do that. Or there could be a "master calculation" utility that has all of the various bits and bobs and then separate tabs for separate calcs if the person wanted.

 

The absolute dream would be being able to easily compare two or more different equipment/ability set-ups against each other. 

 

The ****-my-pants-from-happiness feature would be to be able to get some nice graphs as well. 



#114
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Hi MaxQuest.

I am using your calculator, but when it come to penetrating shot coupled with other speed bonus the result is always different from what I compute myself.

 

For Example:

When using a speed enchant hunter bow with penetrating shot modal on, the calculator show the recover frame is 50f, assuming the character is naked and has a Dex of 10.
 
From the original post, I think the color of RangedAttackSpeedMult is blue, so I think it should be calculated as below
Blue_Coef = 1.2*0.8-1=-0.04
Speed_Coef = Blue_Coef + Red_Coef = -0.04 - 0.5 = -0.54
Recover Fram = 30*(1-2*Speed_Coef)/Recovery_Factor=30*(1-2*(-0.54))/1.2=52
 
But the Calculator seem calculate the Blue_Coef as below
Blue_Coef = (1.2 - 1) + (0.8-1)  = 0
So it gives a final result of 50f.
 
Did I get your original post in a wrong way?


#115
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MaxQuest: Dazing... that might be. Good hint. I tested in a real encounter and it's possible that I was affected by some affliction that I didn't notice. Keep up the good work! :)

 

I know that deadline stuff - good luck!  :thumbsup:



#116
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I feel like any time someone's trying to work out their attack speed it's probably a means to an end to working out overall damage of a character, or giving a pretty good indication of that.

Makes sense. 
 

The absolute dream would be being able to easily compare two or more different equipment/ability set-ups against each other.

Oh my :)
That would be a quite titanic effort. Although I can imagine different "weapons" / but one "armor + gloves + buffs + effects" setup.
 

Hi MaxQuest.
I am using your calculator, but when it come to penetrating shot coupled with other speed bonus the result is always different from what I compute myself.
...
Did I get your original post in a wrong way?

Yeap. 
 
The blue color indicates that effects which belong to that category stack multiplicatively between themselves.
At the same time it's important to keep in mind that end values of different categories stack additively. 
 
RangedAttackSpeedMult contains only one single effect: Penetrating Shot. Thus it stacks additively with everything else.
It's more like:
Blue_Coef1 = 1.2 - 1 
Blue_Coef2 = 0.8 - 1
Speed_Coef = Blue_Coef1 + Blue_Coef2 + ...
Recovery_Coef = max(0, 1 - 2 * Speed_coef) / 1.2
 

MaxQuest: Dazing... that might be. Good hint. I tested in a real encounter and it's possible that I was affected by some affliction that I didn't notice. Keep up the good work! :)

I remember fighting Alpine Dragon. Dual-wielding fists, naked + DAoM, and somehow I was still seeing recovery. It was because of dazing)

Edited by MaxQuest, 05 April 2017 - 09:27 AM.


#117
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When I attack with my monk with the long pain (Swift Strikes, Two Weapon style, padded armor - nothing else) I don't see any recovery (maybe it's too short to be noticed) while the calculator says that there should be recovery left (used stilettos instead). Or maybe my eyes are too old to notice 7 frames of recovery?

I have just tested it in game. Monk with padded armor, swift strikes, two-weapon style and long pain.
I've frapsed him attacking a rooted enemy. He had 10 DEX and 7-8 frames of recovery :)

So it's alive calculator is working)
 
I've optimized it a bit, added empty hand and total duration comparison: link.

#118
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I had 17 DEX. Maybe that's a reason why I thought I saw no recovery.

I also found another possible reason why I can't see recovery from time to time although there should be a tiny bit left:

My computer and the graphics card are rather old. In fights with a lot of combatants and/or graphic effects (blights, whisps and stuff) the fps go down so massively that display of recovery can get skipped entirely.

Glad that the calculator works properly. Awesome stuff! It already helped me to spare a lot of time with a max-DEX-chanter build I was toying around with. Sooo convenient... :)

Edited by Boeroer, 09 April 2017 - 12:51 AM.

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#119
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Recovery indeed can be visually skipped in case of stutter.

I was limiting my frame rate at 30, and monitoring it with fraps to make sure that it is constant.

I am glad that it turned out that convenient, I had to quite wrap my head around the UX part :)

#120
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Always the hardest part. ;)
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