Rogue Retaliate Dual Wield Coolness

[Jojobobo]

So apparently now Retaliate is affected by sneak attacks with the new patch. While it's still only doing 6-10 damage unadjusted by Might as far as I can tell (so you're only looking at max 15 damage with the sneak attack), for a Rogue they seem to be getting more damage out of this then normal. Add in Retaliate can now crit, and if it's affected by Sneak Attack I see no reason for it not to be affected by Dirty + Vicious Fighting and Deathblows, though I haven't tested it. Look below for one of these Sneak Attacks - the damage done is definitely from Retaliate, I'm only using weapons with crush damage otherwise:

 

 

Throw in dual wielding, and a Rogue's per encounter abilities, and you can applying the debuffs in an area. You go to activate Blinding Strike on an enemy, but if another enemy hits you they get blinded through Retaliate - and you hit the original intended target and blind them as well. Then both of these enemies get affected by your Retaliate sneak attacks and Deep Wounds if you have it, doing even more damage if you're using Vulnerable Attack and/or Ryona's Vambraces. Whilst this isn't meteoric damage, it's still a very nice extra effect - particularly if you are critting on any of those attacks.

 

Thought I'd share this little tidbit as I don't think anyone knows about it yet. I'm still currently working on a solo PotD Rogue tank build with a bash shield (essentially dual wielding) - I'll post the class build when I've done something major (slain a dragon, completed the main story) to prove that it works PotD solo. Suffice to say I'm using this dirty trick frequently.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Jojobobo

[MaxQuest]

Hah! Indeed, since the retaliate goes now through standard attack resolution, it should get the benefits of outgoing onHit and onCrit effects originating from talents and equipment (minus weapons). I bet it will work with Deathblows too, just like you are supposing.

 

Maybe new retaliation will also proc the Taste of the Hunt from Dragon Maw's shield, Weakened from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and extra damage from Lightning Strikes?

 

you can applying the debuffs in an area. You go to activate Blinding Strike on an enemy, but if another enemy hits you they get blinded through Retaliate

That's weird. Really an oversight from the devs

As I understand it procs the effects of any currently outgoing action that is a full attack?

For example it would proc Prone (from Knockdown) on being hit too?

 

Throw in dual wielding [...]

Could you elaborate on why exactly DW is needed? Edited April 6, 2016 by MaxQuest

[Boeroer]

Because all those affliction based attacks a rogue can have are full attacks I guess.

 

Badgradr's Barricade on a crit-rogue with lots of full attacks is totally awesome. Death Blows works with Thrust of Tattered Veils. And since that spell's base damage is high (compared with usual one handed weapons) the damage after a critical hit with it is really nice.

 

I'm playtesting a monk with dual rretaliation(sura's supper plate) atm. in order to trigger resonant touch on anyone who hits me. Let's see what weird things will come out of that.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Boeroer

[Jojobobo]

Hah! Indeed, since the retaliate goes now through standard attack resolution, it should get the benefits of outgoing onHit and onCrit effects originating from talents and equipment (minus weapons). I bet it will work with Deathblows too, just like you are supposing.

 

Maybe new retaliation will also proc the Taste of the Hunt from Dragon Maw's shield, Weakened from Enervating Blows, Dazed from Glittering Gloves and extra damage from Lightning Strikes?

It'd definitely be worth testing from someone who is a high level (so they can recruit high level inn companions) and has the equipment. Or just console it, for some reason I've not been able to get my console working so I can't test it out like that (says any command I type is unavailable).

 

That's weird. Really an oversight from the devs

As I understand it procs the effects of any currently outgoing action that is a full attack?

For example it would proc Prone (from Knockdown) on being hit too?

Could you elaborate on why exactly DW is needed?

From what I can tell when this occurs, when I go for a per encounter ability my shield bash won't be applied and instead I'll Retaliate on one foe (plus the per encounter effect), then I'll turn to the other and use my weapon attack and per encounter effect. However, I'll pay close attention to the log when this happens next time to get to the bottom of it. I'm clearing out old maps currently and I'm about to finish Raedric's Hold Dungeon, the Gul gang-bang there should hopefully give me some idea.

 

Dual wielding is good on a Rogue anyway because your second swing benefits from the sneak attack proc from the affliction you inflicted with the first. So for Blinding Strike even if you graze them with the blind effect on your first swing, your second benefits from sneak attack and the increased damage from Blinding Strike in the first place, but also the blinding effect of that second swing is now targeting reflex with is now -20 its original value because the opponent is already blind. Quite often you'll see the first swing get a blinding effect graze and the second get a blinding effect crit because of this, the crit duration being much nicer to then hit them with something else and get Deathblows proc-ing.

 

EDIT: So here's what I got:

 

 

Normally my Bash is the first part of my full attack, then my weapon attack is my second part of my full attack. What we see here is before the bash has had chance to land I already have inflicted blind on the skeleton through Retaliate. Then my Bash lands and inflicts the Blinding Strike damage. Then before my mace attack lands Retaliate has inflicted blind on a gul, then finally the damage of Blinding Strike hits via my mace on the skeleton.

 

I'm guessing the additional debuff effects of your per encounter abilities are somehow not tied to that weapon having landed an attack, they are just applied to the next attack which in this case was Retaliate. The debuff of the second swing is maybe only allowed to be applied after that first swing weapon has made it's attack (hence why the second blinding only comes after the Bash) but after that it's free to be attached either to Retaliate or your weapon attack as before. This is why this is all much more pronounced with dual-wielding/weapon and bash shield.

 

I'll re-post this in bugs to see whether this is how the devs want this to work, if not whether they're bothered to patch it. Currently I like it as it means more debuffs against more enemies.

 

Badgradr's Barricade on a crit-rogue with lots of full attacks is totally awesome. Death Blows works with Thrust of Tattered Veils. And since that spell's base damage is high (compared with usual one handed weapons) the damage after a critical hit with it is really nice.

It's definitely the shield I had in mind. Originally I was going to go Adept Evasion over Dirty Fighting but now with the Retaliation stuff Dirty Fighting has become much more appealing again - with that and Vicious Fighting I should be firing off Thrust of Tattered Veils pretty often. I figured I'd just go Aila Braccia when I need it to compensate for lacking Adept Evasion.

 

That monk idea certainly sounds promising, it'll be cool to hear the results.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Jojobobo

[Jojobobo]

For anyone still interested, Dirty Fight also effects Retaliate - see below. I'm using a dagger/Larder Door, so the only source of pierce here is Retaliate.

 

 

Thought I'd post again instead of making an edit so the thread didn't get lost. I guess if anyone finds anymore of these weird effects post them up, as soon a I manage to test out Deathblows I'll let you know.

[Elric Galad]

The problem with deathblow is that you need 2 independant effect and a target still able to attack your rogue. As many effects are Hard CC, it's not so likely to happen often.

 

Still I wonder why soul whip bonus damage does not work on retaliate meanwhile sneak attack work.

 

At least the backlash beldam rogue variant should work.

[Boeroer]

Flanked + Distracted, Weakened, Hobbled, Blinded and Stuck works. That's ok.

[Jojobobo]

Obsidian Lamp gives Shades which provide Flanked plus Blinded. Though it's per rest, that a solid Deathblows right there playing solo. As I mentioned, Retaliate can apparently spread debuffs slightly around groups - use something like Spreading Plague from Rotfinger gloves and it becomes even easier to spread the sneak attack proc-ing debuffs around.

 

If you have high enough intellect, it's easy enough to chain different debuffs so you get crits. Withering Strike lowers will and fortitude which Sap and Crippling Strike target respectively, Sap lowers reflex which Blinding Strike targets - etc. Targeting anyone on of these defenses when it's now at the -10 or -20 leads to easy crits, which with mid teen intellect leads to huge durations and hence plenty of time for a crap load of Deathblows even lacking good dex. I used to think Deathblows was too much of a situational waste on a Rogue too, but it really really isn't.

Edited April 8, 2016 by Jojobobo

[greenblade]

Flanked + Distracted, Weakened, Hobbled, Blinded and Stuck works. That's ok.

Does Distracted trigger sneak attack?

[Boeroer]

Yes. And a rogue that flanks can automatically trigger Distracted with a special ability named "Persistent Distraction (lvl 7)" -> which leads to Deathblows (because flanked + distracted). So you just have to be the flanker to trigger Deathblows.

 

Watch out though: if the target is already flanked and you come as "second" flanker, this doesn't work. You have to be the first to flank to trigger Persistent Distraction.

Edited April 11, 2016 by Boeroer

[Urocyon]

Obsidian Lamp gives Shades which provide Flanked plus Blinded. Though it's per rest, that a solid Deathblows right there playing solo. As I mentioned, Retaliate can apparently spread debuffs slightly around groups - use something like Spreading Plague from Rotfinger gloves and it becomes even easier to spread the sneak attack proc-ing debuffs around.

 

You could play around with the chanter multi-class skellie summon to drum up some cheap disposable flanking friends too. Of course, that talent loses it's allure after a while but might help in the early levels.

[greenblade]

Yes. And a rogue that flanks can automatically trigger Distracted with a special ability named "Persistent Distraction (lvl 7)" -> which leads to Deathblows (because flanked + distracted). So you just have to be the flanker to trigger Deathblows.

 

Watch out though: if the target is already flanked and you come as "second" flanker, this doesn't work. You have to be the first to flank to trigger Persistent Distraction.

 

Thanks Boeroer for the info! I just took Persistent Distraction and was wondering if it could trigger Deathblows -- it was not obvious from the description. I'm trying to pair my rogue with Itumalk as a killing squad. What you said will be a big help.

[Jojobobo]

 

Obsidian Lamp gives Shades which provide Flanked plus Blinded. Though it's per rest, that a solid Deathblows right there playing solo. As I mentioned, Retaliate can apparently spread debuffs slightly around groups - use something like Spreading Plague from Rotfinger gloves and it becomes even easier to spread the sneak attack proc-ing debuffs around.

 

You could play around with the chanter multi-class skellie summon to drum up some cheap disposable flanking friends too. Of course, that talent loses it's allure after a while but might help in the early levels.

 

It's a good idea if you're into retraining, however for this build currently I don't want to (which is why I've restarted 6ish times trying to hone it, one where I'd gotten all the way into Act III and WM part I). I feel like if you're going defensive, builds can be pretty tight for talents - particularly with so many defensive ones on the offing.

[Braven]

The patch notes mentioned that stunning weapons also trigger sneak attack in 3.02 (and I imagine contribute to death blows).  Maybe a stun weapon could be considered in your build?  Not sure how it compares to other options.  Cladhaliath is probably the best one-handed stunner; good damage and accuracy.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Braven

[Jojobobo]

I tried Mabec's Morning Star in the first Stalwart area and found it thoroughly unimpressive (hoping the Wilder bonus and Stun chance would make me mow down the ogres). I haven't tested yet whether weapon affects go over onto Retaliate attacks, but so far I don't think so (things like lashes don't) so that aspect of these weapons likely doesn't have that utility.

[bescheid]

Would retaliate trigger Rangers Stunning shots now that it works in melee? has anyone tried this, it sounds rly awsome if it works

[Boeroer]

Even if it works with retaliation: Stunning Shots only works on the target that your pet also attacks.  

[bescheid]

Ah true, but if u have pet stag he attacks all ;D just kidding

[DreamWayfarer]

Ah true, but if u have pet stag he attacks all ;D just kidding

Worth testing.