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TheDave

Worst game balance ever

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Agree that Dragon battles (Arda and Alpine) are rather cheesy than actually hard, you don't really need tactics there, just some well, exploits? too kill it easily. That's the problem, but I don't see how devs could make those encounters challenging any other way. I'm glad they didn't go korean MMO way with bosses having few billions of HP so you have to pummel it couple of hours... And complaining about optional fights is also not cool, really...

 

I don't think that knowing an enemy's weaknesses and exploiting them is "cheese".  It doesn't matter if the enemy is a lowly wolf or a mighty dragon.  The best way to defeat an enemy is to totally immobilize them, whether it's stunning, paralyzing, or knocking them down.  If it can't attack you and you can attack them because you hit them with a spell, etc., why is that "cheese"?    IMO, it's not.

 

Also, given that dragon breath attacks are usually so massively devastating, the player needs to have something devastating to use against the dragon in return.  And in this case, it's immobilizing attacks.

 

And if dragon attacks were less devastating, frankly, they wouldn't be nearly as big a challenge as they are currently.  And then what would be the point in having dragons in the game.

 

 

Of course, I suppose it depends on how one defines "cheese".  I tend to think of "cheese" as exploiting the game mechanics in a way that abuses the physics.  An example of this would be to put a character in a doorway and then cast a withdraw spell on him, thus blocking the chokepoint and preventing anyone from passing.  That's not the intended use of a Withdraw spell, and hence it is "cheese" to me.  OTOH, casting a paralyze spell on a dragon can hardly be "cheese" because you're using the spell in exactly the way that it's meant to be used.

 

I'm not sure if ladder exploit is still working on Adra, but that was "cheese", knowing ahead weaknesses and simply following guides how to beat supposedly tough boss easily is cheese, when like you send single tanky hero ahead to initiate combat with dragon and hide rest of party behind with scrolls and spells that gonna utterly destroy this beast is "cheese"

The dragons are all about positioning, the alpine dragon in particular can be beaten by hiding your party in the left corner of the cave while your tankiest character engages the dragon and his mobs first, that gives them time to buff and nuke his mobs then concentrate on the dragon itself.

 

That's also pretty much "cheese". 

 

I think battles designed the wrong way, making you to use tactic "kill before it moves" turning battle into beating helpless body rather than positioning and strategic gameplay. There are no mechanics to avoid breath or other devastating AoE attacks. That would be much more challenging and interesting to have longer battles with Dragons who have status immunities and we could time our attacks and use envroment or specific skills to avoid massive attacks and etc. That would be a drag to design, but totally worth it IMO.

 

Still, I'm mostly fine with what we have, but I don't wanna deny how better it could be.

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I'm not sure if ladder exploit is still working on Adra, but that was "cheese", knowing ahead weaknesses and simply following guides how to beat supposedly tough boss easily is cheese, when like you send single tanky hero ahead to initiate combat with dragon and hide rest of party behind with scrolls and spells that gonna utterly destroy this beast is "cheese"

 

That's also pretty much "cheese". 

 

I think battles designed the wrong way, making you to use tactic "kill before it moves" turning battle into beating helpless body rather than positioning and strategic gameplay. There are no mechanics to avoid breath or other devastating AoE attacks. That would be much more challenging and interesting to have longer battles with Dragons who have status immunities and we could time our attacks and use envroment or specific skills to avoid massive attacks and etc. That would be a drag to design, but totally worth it IMO.

 

Still, I'm mostly fine with what we have, but I don't wanna deny how better it could be.

 

 

Three points:

1.  How is sending the character with the most armor in front of the big dangerous beast cheese?  In any rational world you would want to put the person with the most protection in front of the danger.  Especially when that's what they've done for their entire career.

 

2.  I beat the Ardra Dragon and the Ice Dragon on PotD without using any scrolls except resurrect.  And I always give my characters resurrect scrolls.  I know my experience is not yours, etc.  But it just takes knowledge of the game system, not any sort of abuse or much luck even.  You use protection against fear and reapply when needed.  That solves a huge problem with the dragon's defense being too high.  Then you target their weakest defense with debuffs.  Master blaster mage tactics aren't that good against dragons, so you use what works.  Then you step up the debuffs.  Then you kill it.  

 

Sometimes you can charm or confuse the adds and they'll tank the dragon for you.  Sometimes you can charm or confuse the dragon and they'll kill the adds for you.  If you haven't charmed the dragon and they're not stunned, stay away from the mouth and tail.  If you're near the mouth you'll get eaten or burned, then you'll have a bad time.  If you're near the tail, you could get tail-whipped, then you'll have a bad time.

 

3.  The game includes not one but two mechanics for getting out of dragon fire.  One is boosting your reflex scores.  Snake's Reflexes, Weapon and Shield Style, Wary Defender, and Adept Evasion do this.  

 

The other is much simpler.  Don't stand in front of it's mouth.  If you find you are in front of its mouth move.  There are dozens of abilities and items that help you move quickly.  Some characters can even move faster than the dragon.  

 

None of these tactics are cheese.  They all fairly make sense.

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A lot of it is dependent on the level you're playing the game on.  On the lowest level, you can pretty much walk around, with the entire party selected, and focus the enemies down one by one.  On the higher level not accounting for a single enemy will result in a wipe.

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I'm laughing at the thread title. This game has to be the most balanced game I've ever played.

Complaining about OPTIONAL content that supposed to be harder than the normal content...sigh smh. That's like complaining about about rolfstomping sephiroth but getting ur ass handed to you by ruby weapon.

Remember OP, in RPGs that are trying to go with the old school formula, the LAST boss is hardly ever the most challenging battle in the game. There's usually always an enemy or two that's hidden off the path that u DONT have to do that would make the last boss seem like a lvl 1 scrub.

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I'm laughing at the thread title. This game has to be the most balanced game I've ever played.

Complaining about OPTIONAL content that supposed to be harder than the normal content...sigh smh. That's like complaining about about rolfstomping sephiroth but getting ur ass handed to you by ruby weapon.

Remember OP, in RPGs that are trying to go with the old school formula, the LAST boss is hardly ever the most challenging battle in the game. There's usually always an enemy or two that's hidden off the path that u DONT have to do that would make the last boss seem like a lvl 1 scrub.

 

And im laughing hard at that second sentence.

Edited by mc_kracken

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Priests are ridiculously powerful in this fight. Not only are you swarmed with Vessels (making for an extra juicy Holy Radiance) but the Alpine Dragon has enough accuracy to actually hit most tanks, Éder included, for a lot of damage requiring you to buff and heal them for once.

 

My advice is to send your tank straight for the dragon, to keep it busy, and above all make sure the beasts's sides face the party, last thing you want is to get hit with Frost Breath or tail lash. Don't group the rest of the party too closely, the Blights have AoE attacks. Take them out first if at all possible, then the bevy of Vessels, then the dragon.

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Let's face it hard isn't hard. The developer's should know by now. I want high level scaling right from the start.

 

So it was too easy, or too hard? 

 

i just got to the sky dragon this afternoon. (lv 11) Up until that it was too easy. Probably burial isle is a boring cake walk again.

 

 

The Sky Dragon is much easier than other dragons, and in fact just not a very challenging enemy in terms of its stats, abilities, etc., especially if you're 11. Many players report the sky dragon as being a cakewalk. That doesn't mean the Sky Dragon is easy for everyone, though. It just means your party / playing style was well geared for blasting past average mobs, but you didn't have good ways for dealing with high defense single units with a couple of special tricks up their sleeves. Most of the time it's got way more to do with your tactics and builds. I've had characters who sat there in front of the Sky Dragon solo not really bothered, and whole parties who had much more trouble. 

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I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

Edited by mc_kracken

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I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

 

Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine.

 

And would you like some cheese with that whine?

 

 

In BG2, the dragons didn't have buddies harassing you while you tried to fight the dragon.  That makes a HUGE difference.  In BG2, you could spread your party out all around the dragon without fear of a dragon's buddies catching those individual party members by their lonesome and smack them down.  In PoE, you need to keep your party somewhat together to defend against the dragon's buddies.  And at the same time, that also ends up making your party more vulnerable to the dragon's major attacks.

 

Also in BG2, you would buff your party up with a gazillion spells to practically make yourself invulnerable.  However, this process was, IMO, horribly boring!!!  I hated having to have to cast that many spells before any decently difficult battle just because one felt it was necessary if one wanted to not get trashed.   In PoE, you can fight a dragon with barely any buffs.  About the only one I think one really "needs" is the protection from fear, level 1 priest spell or scroll.  Anything else is optional.

 

 

I think that the only thing that's horribly balanced here are the minds of those who are constantly whining.

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I'm laughing at the thread title. This game has to be the most balanced game I've ever played.

Complaining about OPTIONAL content that supposed to be harder than the normal content...sigh smh. That's like complaining about about rolfstomping sephiroth but getting ur ass handed to you by ruby weapon.

Remember OP, in RPGs that are trying to go with the old school formula, the LAST boss is hardly ever the most challenging battle in the game. There's usually always an enemy or two that's hidden off the path that u DONT have to do that would make the last boss seem like a lvl 1 scrub.

 

Sky Dragon is the only boss that kind of irks me. Not because I think it's harder than Alpine, or Adra, or the archmages or anything like that. It bugs me that it is part of a pseudo-mandatory main quest. Technically it's not 100% mandatory, but it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, and by FAR the hardest of those 4 options.

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Let's face it hard isn't hard. The developer's should know by now. I want high level scaling right from the start.

 

So it was too easy, or too hard? 

 

i just got to the sky dragon this afternoon. (lv 11) Up until that it was too easy. Probably burial isle is a boring cake walk again.

 

 

The Sky Dragon is much easier than other dragons, and in fact just not a very challenging enemy in terms of its stats, abilities, etc., especially if you're 11. Many players report the sky dragon as being a cakewalk. That doesn't mean the Sky Dragon is easy for everyone, though. It just means your party / playing style was well geared for blasting past average mobs, but you didn't have good ways for dealing with high defense single units with a couple of special tricks up their sleeves. Most of the time it's got way more to do with your tactics and builds. I've had characters who sat there in front of the Sky Dragon solo not really bothered, and whole parties who had much more trouble. 

 

My solo wizard had a lot of trouble with Sky Dragon, even at level 16. Prone/stun just hurts a ton when soloing, but I'm not going to bash a games balance because it's hard when I play with 1 character rather than a full party. Especially not since I was fighting it solo on POTD.

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When you control the game, only alpine dragon is difficult (if we talk of all dragons).

 

Sky dragon is a joke in Potd. Adra is extremly simple also.

 

BUT, at my first encounter : I was thinking its impossible to beat them.

 

For the solo, its different. The game is not totally designed for that. Its not Neverwinter Nights here...

 

There is a team play to respect. BUT all the classes are not equals for the solo, its certain...

Edited by theBalthazar

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I'm laughing at the thread title. This game has to be the most balanced game I've ever played.

Complaining about OPTIONAL content that supposed to be harder than the normal content...sigh smh. That's like complaining about about rolfstomping sephiroth but getting ur ass handed to you by ruby weapon.

Remember OP, in RPGs that are trying to go with the old school formula, the LAST boss is hardly ever the most challenging battle in the game. There's usually always an enemy or two that's hidden off the path that u DONT have to do that would make the last boss seem like a lvl 1 scrub.

Sky Dragon is the only boss that kind of irks me. Not because I think it's harder than Alpine, or Adra, or the archmages or anything like that. It bugs me that it is part of a pseudo-mandatory main quest. Technically it's not 100% mandatory, but it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, and by FAR the hardest of those 4 options.
You are not required to kill the Sky Dragon to complete Hylea's quest. Edited by Rosveen

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Alpine is immuned to paralyzis which extremely annoying.

 

If you have a wizard in your party, he's a joke. Without Wizard, it might be a bit more tedious.

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I'm laughing at the thread title. This game has to be the most balanced game I've ever played.

Complaining about OPTIONAL content that supposed to be harder than the normal content...sigh smh. That's like complaining about about rolfstomping sephiroth but getting ur ass handed to you by ruby weapon.

Remember OP, in RPGs that are trying to go with the old school formula, the LAST boss is hardly ever the most challenging battle in the game. There's usually always an enemy or two that's hidden off the path that u DONT have to do that would make the last boss seem like a lvl 1 scrub.

Sky Dragon is the only boss that kind of irks me. Not because I think it's harder than Alpine, or Adra, or the archmages or anything like that. It bugs me that it is part of a pseudo-mandatory main quest. Technically it's not 100% mandatory, but it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, and by FAR the hardest of those 4 options.
I hear ya. For awhile I was thinking what the big deal was with the sky because the first time I went up against it I facerolled thru it then tried it again with a different party makeup in another game and got my ass handed to me because I was using the same tactics from the last time but I had a different party so I had to redo my plan.

My first time was with my bleak walker and the dice rolls were in my favor, I hardly got touched by the stuns and whatnot. Second time with Eder tanking and me as a barbarian....the dice rolls were against us. I think we got hit with every stun lmao.

 

Also I can see why it would irk ya but at the same time, u don't have to fight it. Though I totally understand if it's roleplaying reasons though.

Edited by redneckdevil

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" it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, "

 

.....exactly?

 

(Also, to compensate, Sky is far weaker than all the other dragons. This is similar to how in BG2, compared to player power, Nizzidramaniyat [sic], who you had to kill for the main quest, was far weaker than Firkraag would be in Chapter 2 or even Silver Dragon in Chapter 5.)

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Scaled Sky Dragon is not a joke. (Yup, a scaled dragon, got it ?)

 

I don't say it's harder.

 

I went into it unprepared and I got my ass kicked. Then I prepared properly and it became fairly easy.

 

But against Adra and Alpine, I was prepared too and it wasn't a problem at all. So I can't really say if they were stronger.

Edited by Elric Galad

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" it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, "

 

.....exactly?

 

(Also, to compensate, Sky is far weaker than all the other dragons. This is similar to how in BG2, compared to player power, Nizzidramaniyat [sic], who you had to kill for the main quest, was far weaker than Firkraag would be in Chapter 2 or even Silver Dragon in Chapter 5.)

 

 

If they choose to appease that particular god, they may not realize there's a dialogue choice that avoids the fight, and while you don't have to appease Hylea, you do have to appease a god. It just seems odd to me that Sky Dragon is related to the god appeasement quest line at all when the other god appeasement fights are all wayyyy easier.

 

IMO, if you can kill sky dragon then the final boss is going to be a joke for you afterwards. Only timethat wouldn't be true is if sky dragon was NOT scaled, an then you DID scale Act IV.

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I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

Since when is casting spells "cheesing"?
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Since when is casting spells "cheesing"?

 

Come on, using anything but your fists is cheesing. Nature didn't give you weapons and armour so you shouldn't need them. Punch the dragon to death (not if you're a Monk, being a Monk is cheesing).

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I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

Since when is casting spells "cheesing"?

 

would it be possible to kill him with a party without any spellcaster and no scrolls? (see game balance)

Edited by mc_kracken

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I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

Since when is casting spells "cheesing"?

 

would it be possible to kill him with a party without any spellcaster and no scrolls? (see game balance)

 

That's not the symbol of balance. You seem to be upset that all the classes don't function identically, and that they each actually have roles and purposes. ie. With your logic a MMORPG would be imbalanced if a party required some form of crowd control, or a healer to survive a high level raid, or if a party full of healers couldn't do the required dps to kill something that regenerated its life, etc.

 

Requiring a balanced party to beat optional end-game content is not a sign of poor balance.

Edited by Nauzhror
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" it's one of 4 solutions to a 100% mandatory quest, "

 

.....exactly?

 

(Also, to compensate, Sky is far weaker than all the other dragons. This is similar to how in BG2, compared to player power, Nizzidramaniyat [sic], who you had to kill for the main quest, was far weaker than Firkraag would be in Chapter 2 or even Silver Dragon in Chapter 5.)

 

 

If they choose to appease that particular god, they may not realize there's a dialogue choice that avoids the fight, and while you don't have to appease Hylea, you do have to appease a god. It just seems odd to me that Sky Dragon is related to the god appeasement quest line at all when the other god appeasement fights are all wayyyy easier.

 

IMO, if you can kill sky dragon then the final boss is going to be a joke for you afterwards. Only timethat wouldn't be true is if sky dragon was NOT scaled, an then you DID scale Act IV.

 

 

Thaos I would say is easily more difficult than the Sky Dragon, scaling notwithstanding. Anyway, the point remains that nobody will ever be stuck in the main quest because they can't kill the sky dragon. And it's far weaker than all other dragons. BG2 had a mandatory dragon kill. Etc, etc...

 

 

 

 

I've beaten him, with the help of paralysis scrolls.

The first (red) dragon from BG2 was still a quite a challenge but you didn't have to cheese it.

 

This game is horribly balanced.

Since when is casting spells "cheesing"?

 

would it be possible to kill him with a party without any spellcaster and no scrolls? (see game balance)

 

 

People have done it. A lot. You can even kill Thaos solo without spell scrolls, especially below POTD. All you've ever said is that it wasn't possible for you or your party. The interesting question is what kind of parties or playing styles have difficulties with which enemies.

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You cast prayer against fear, then you weaken his accuracy and boost the accuracy of your party. WITH spells.

This i see as minimum requirement to bring him down. (and not plan to reload for like 50 times until i get lucky)

 

Dragons aside (ok they should be hard) untill that the game was bordering on boring because it was so easy.

So for me the game balance is just not there. Dunno if its the worst ever, but its certainly close...

Edited by mc_kracken

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