rheingold Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? Edited March 7, 2016 by rheingold 3 "Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them.""So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?""You choose the wrong adjective.""You've already used up all the others.” Lord of Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house2fly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 specific dialogues saying there wouldn't have been wars, if people were not misguided into believing deities The villain says that! Thaos! The bad guy! The man you specifically have to kill to win the game! What on earth makes you think he's meant to be the font of all wisdom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house2fly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Brimsurfer watching Return Of The Jedi: I can't believe the rebels won even though the Emperor said they would all be destroyed. This story is contradicting itself! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 If you thought message of Act 4 was "these Gods are responsible for all the bad stuff and without them there would be nothing but good stuff", then this just boils down to the simple fact that you terribly misunderstood the basic content in the game. Everything in Act 4, from Iovara to Thaos to the ending slides, goes over the top to show you how the Gods are not 'bad', even Thaos' quest to maintain belief in the constructed Gods is not without merit, and reminds you the player that telling the world about the Gods' origins may not bring about good results. 3 Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caribou Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Theology student / Christian believer here. I thought that POE´s way of handling religions was pretty interesting, and was not offended by the game. Actually I mostly liked the twist where the gods were created by the Engwithans. This made the game feel different from usual fantasy tropes............................... There are no Gods of Eora, what you are referring to as Gods, are merely the creation of Ancient Engwithans...........what these beings are specifically, the game and the lore fails to say that, but these beings can be communicated with and they exist but they are not Gods, they are only referred to as Gods by the common folk of Eora who doesn't know the Secret as the game reveals........may be the next chapter will unfold what these beings are......but a God is not created by people, only the false gods are........ It sounds like you're taking offense to something 1) being referred to as a god and 2) shown to be fallible. Wouldn't you agree that monotheists believe that all gods (but one!) were "created by people" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 "It's a cute safety net, and an elaborate way to sell "laziness" under the guise of "lack of belief."" So Christians are lazy because they don't believe in Hindu gods (in other words they have lack of belief in Hindu gods)? Christianity is a belief system, Atheism is a lack of belief. No atheism is term that is used about people that don't believe in god or gods. So if I say that term ahinduim means lack of belief in Hindu gods, then all people that said term applies will become lazy because of their lack of belief in certain thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meowbeast Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... I agree. This game should borrow a page from every religion ever and mind its own business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) If you thought message of Act 4 was "these Gods are responsible for all the bad stuff and without them there would be nothing but good stuff", then this just boils down to the simple fact that you terribly misunderstood the basic content in the game. Everything in Act 4, from Iovara to Thaos to the ending slides, goes over the top to show you how the Gods are not 'bad', even Thaos' quest to maintain belief in the constructed Gods is not without merit, and reminds you the player that telling the world about the Gods' origins may not bring about good results. You misunderstand me , i have no issues with a God being portrayed as Bad, I played Baldur's Gate, one of my all time favourites, there are lots of 'bad' gods in that one who do very nasty stuff, Cyric being my favourite......I love that lore, i love that setting, excellent story telling........ However, in PoE, the game plot was going good, kind of vague but still good until the final act where, to me, it started feeling really superficial and then it disappointingly conformed to relay only a specific message, as I have mentioned in my other posts...... Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... I agree. This game should borrow a page from every religion ever and mind its own business. BG or PST or IWD or any of Elder Scroll games etc never had to borrow a page from any religion and yet they told excellent stories without a biased approach and without an underlying political or religious idea....... and all these games have alive and kicking deities and well oiled system of beliefs........ Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rheingold Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... But in this case the gods are not a lie, they exist, they are real as can be. It just happens that in this case they are man made, much like in our world.... I think you have completely misunderstood what the writers were attempting to say... and you are over sensitive. The game is not an attack in Christianity or any other religion. Rather it is an attempt to ask important questions about religion, how it starts and most importantly why it starts? And is there a fundamental need for people to believe or not? Do people need God to be good? Loads of questions and all of them are important especially in our current climate, but it's not a personal attack on your beliefs. "Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them.""So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?""You choose the wrong adjective.""You've already used up all the others.” Lord of Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigranes Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one). 4 Let's Play: Icewind Dale Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Icewind Dale II Ironman (Complete) Let's Play: Divinity II (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG1 (Complete) Let's Play: Baldur's Gate Trilogy Ironman - BG2 (In Progress) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenbane Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) No atheism is term that is used about people that don't believe in god or gods. You are wrong according to Atheists.org: https://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. So I repeat: Christianity is a belief system; Atheism is a lack of belief. Not necessarily. An "atheist - greek: άθεος: a-theos". Theos literally translates as god(I suspect the writers named a certain character in purpose since it sounds the same although I found it too cheesy) and with the negating "alpha" in front it means without god. Someone can be without a god but he might still believe that the soul itself preexisted without the need of a "higher intelligent omniscient being" baby-sitting it. The problem is that you defined the origin of the word "atheist" without defining the origin of the word "soul." If you want to prove that the concept of a soul within this context can exist without the concept of a god, then maybe show the origin of the word "soul"? Edited March 7, 2016 by Zenbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meowbeast Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... I agree. This game should borrow a page from every religion ever and mind its own business. BG or PST or IWD or any of Elder Scroll games etc never had to borrow a page from any religion and yet they told excellent stories without a biased approach and without an underlying political or religious idea....... and all these games have alive and kicking deities and well oiled system of beliefs........ Not only is that arguable and highly subjective, but in the Forgotten Realms, mortals could become gods themselves, and gods could also be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoner Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) OP, do you see difference between made up fantasy story which has absolutely nothing to do with reality, in the world where NON of our world rules apply basically to anything and real world?... This is ridiculous, it's just a fantasy story for entertainment, it doesn't push you to think about anything like you imply, because even diety system is basically multitheistic/pagan and represented in very unusual manner in comparison to our world pagan religions. If you play the game where you have to kill someone (which is roughly 99% of games on the market) do you actually taking it as a message and start killing people in real life? I'm terrified... Edited March 7, 2016 by Stoner 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rheingold Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) OP, do you see difference between made up fantasy story which has absolutely nothing to do with reality, in the world where NON of our world rules apply basically to anything and real world?... This is ridiculous, it's just a fantasy story for entertainment, it doesn't push you to think about anything like you imply, because even diety system is basically multitheistic/pagan and represented in very unusual manner in comparison to our world pagan religions. If you play the game where you have to kill someone (which is roughly 99% of games on the market) do you actually taking it as a message and start killing people in real life? I'm terrified... OP, do you see difference between made up fantasy story which has absolutely nothing to do with reality, in the world where NON of our world rules apply basically to anything and real world?... This is ridiculous, it's just a fantasy story for entertainment, it doesn't push you to think about anything like you imply, because even diety system is basically multitheistic/pagan and represented in very unusual manner in comparison to our world pagan religions. If you play the game where you have to kill someone (which is roughly 99% of games on the market) do you actually taking it as a message and start killing people in real life? I'm terrified... Well, I'm not so sure about this, yes it is a fantasy game, but sometimes good fiction asks serious questions, you know about life, the universe and everything.... Pillars is pretty good in that respect which is in fact why the op is upset, as opposed to being upset about the old ie games. But he is definitely taking this way to personally. Edited March 7, 2016 by rheingold 1 "Those who look upon gods then say, without even knowing their names, 'He is Fire. She is Dance. He is Destruction. She is Love.' So, to reply to your statement, they do not call themselves gods. Everyone else does, though, everyone who beholds them.""So they play that on their fascist banjos, eh?""You choose the wrong adjective.""You've already used up all the others.” Lord of Light Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 Sigh.... really it's a cliche! Actually it's one of the better written games around. It's not simply about atheism but rather about questioning the role of religion in society. For a fantasy game it's remarkably nuanced, but I guess if you are religious you probably won't like anything which questions religion. Begs the question why would you play the game then? I have been playing RPGs and other genre's for over 20 years but I haven't felt that way about a game's story...........but in this one it really seemed like that this idea of Gods being a lie, was deliberately pushed into the face of audience....... I agree. This game should borrow a page from every religion ever and mind its own business. BG or PST or IWD or any of Elder Scroll games etc never had to borrow a page from any religion and yet they told excellent stories without a biased approach and without an underlying political or religious idea....... and all these games have alive and kicking deities and well oiled system of beliefs........ Not only is that arguable and highly subjective, but in the Forgotten Realms, mortals could become gods themselves, and gods could also be killed. And the way it was told was excellent, absolutely loved it....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 No atheism is term that is used about people that don't believe in god or gods. You are wrong according to Atheists.org: https://atheists.org/activism/resources/what-is-atheism Atheism is usually defined incorrectly as a belief system. Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods. So I repeat: Christianity is a belief system; Atheism is a lack of belief. Atheism is term that is used to categorize people don't believe in god/gods or in other words people that lack of belief in gods. But that don't mean that those people that don't have belief systems or life philosophies that guide them. So atheism and Christianity as terms aren't comparable as they describe absolute different things. And if we are accurate then Christianity isn't actually belief system but category term for multiple belief systems that are based at least somewhat in same source materials. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenbane Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Atheism is term that is used to categorize people don't believe in god/gods or in other words people that lack of belief in gods. But that don't mean that those people that don't have belief systems or life philosophies that guide them. So atheism and Christianity as terms aren't comparable as they describe absolute different things. And if we are accurate then Christianity isn't actually belief system but category term for multiple belief systems that are based at least somewhat in same source materials. You seem very determined to force these established concepts in to your own imagined version. First you butchered the idea of Atheism, now you're butchering Christianity, "it's not a belief system but a category of multiple belief systems." I don't care to change your mind about anything. By all means, think what you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house2fly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 POE asks a question directly, through Iovara: "what if we can be assured of nothing?" Given that you're at the climax of the game when you're asked this question, I'd say it's as close as you get to a summing-up of the game's themes in a single line. Not "what if there is no God?" but "what if there's no way to be sure whether or not there is a God?" I would have assumed that if you're religious the answer would be "faith" but it's interesting to me that Brimsurfer is so offended that the question would even be asked. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one). Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elerond Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 Atheism is term that is used to categorize people don't believe in god/gods or in other words people that lack of belief in gods. But that don't mean that those people that don't have belief systems or life philosophies that guide them. So atheism and Christianity as terms aren't comparable as they describe absolute different things. And if we are accurate then Christianity isn't actually belief system but category term for multiple belief systems that are based at least somewhat in same source materials. You seem very determined to force these established concepts in to your own imagined version. First you butchered the idea of Atheism, now you're butchering Christianity, "it's not a belief system but a category of multiple belief systems." I don't care to change your mind about anything. By all means, think what you like. There is no singular belief system that falls under term Christianity, there are over 21000 different Christian religions in world and they have quite lot differences between them. And they don't even always agree with core tenets of Christian faith(s). If we look definition of atheism from other sources we find that people use definitions like this "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
house2fly Posted March 7, 2016 Share Posted March 7, 2016 If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one). Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me.... Why was the game ruined by relaying an underlying value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 (edited) POE asks a question directly, through Iovara: "what if we can be assured of nothing?" Given that you're at the climax of the game when you're asked this question, I'd say it's as close as you get to a summing-up of the game's themes in a single line. Not "what if there is no God?" but "what if there's no way to be sure whether or not there is a God?" I would have assumed that if you're religious the answer would be "faith" but it's interesting to me that Brimsurfer is so offended that the question would even be asked. But the game at no point makes any assertion that Iovora could be wrong as well and that there is a distinct possibility that the deities are real and are superior to man's will and spirituality.... game fails to make similar assertion at every point but it made the opposite assertion at every opportunity............................and yet its an RPG, that denies a player a crucial aspect of the role to play in this setting......all player dialogue choices are along the same lines which suggested all of the above that I have been saying........ Edited March 7, 2016 by Brimsurfer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brimsurfer Posted March 7, 2016 Author Share Posted March 7, 2016 If you want to say the ending's delivery is sudden and hamfisted, OK. I partly agree, although the question mark over the gods is established throughout the game via the Eothas/Waidwen problem, and the thematic question of faith and belief is reinforced by almost every single companion as well. That's really not what you're saying, though. The reason everybody is disagreeing with you is because you make an illogical jump to a random belief (game pushes a radical agenda) based on a factually incorrect basis (that Act 4's message is an atheist one). Yes the ending is kind of hamfisted but that's not what I meant and not everybody disagrees with me, game does relay an underlying political / non religious value and to me it felt like that it was done to the extent where it kind of ruined the game, at least for me.... Why was the game ruined by relaying an underlying value? Because then its not care free fun anymore, somebody is trying to push something in my face deliberately, doesn't that ruin your fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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