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So... what's exactly the stash?


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If you complain about the stash on the basis of immersion without also complaining about the 16 inventory slots and 4 quick slots you are a fake gamer.

Well, it's easy to carry 16 rings.

In the other hand, 16 pets could be a more difficult task :p

 

Thats the reason I liked the weight system of the IE games, even if it had its flaws.

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Was it immersive in the IE games for a character to be able to haul around a half dozen greatwords, several polearms, a few arbalests and multiple suits of armor, as it were in their backpack, and still enjoy full range of motion and combat effectiveness as long as a weight value based on their Strength score wasn't exceeded?

Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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OP: Try the first Witcher for a far more internally consistent inventory, and of course the Ultima games which were intuitive, logical and added to the verisimilitude rather than working against other aspects which enhance the realism of the gameworld. The Poe inventory along with a few other features create a dissonance for me as well, personally I find organising an inventory and various other features in a game to be fun, rewarding and satisfying, there is a strategic aspect that I really like. Then again it is a lot of work I imagine to create an intuitive and believable system, as we have seen so few made expecially in modern "evolved" games, so why bother when the majority are happy with less interactivity and more automation?

Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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Was it immersive in the IE games for a character to be able to haul around a half dozen greatwords, several polearms, a few arbalests and multiple suits of armor, as it were in their backpack, and still enjoy full range of motion and combat effectiveness as long as a weight value based on their Strength score wasn't exceeded?

 

Even better, you could be carrying all that no problem, but pick up just one extra potion and you suddenly can't move. :biggrin:

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Was it immersive in the IE games for a character to be able to haul around a half dozen greatwords, several polearms, a few arbalests and multiple suits of armor, as it were in their backpack, and still enjoy full range of motion and combat effectiveness as long as a weight value based on their Strength score wasn't exceeded?

Yes, actually. More immersive than PoE, at least. It appears to be absurd in real world terms, but so is practically everything about fantasy video games and it at least had some semblance of internal consistency: your carrying capacity depends on your strength, carrying more requires a special magical item found during your adventures. It's such a little thing, but "stash" bothers me. It comes out of nowhere, I don't understand what it's supposed to be, it feels cheap that it's limitless. It's a very gamey feature with no connection to the game world whatsoever. No explanation even attempted. That's what makes things unimmersive: when you're reminded that you're just playing a game, not living in a world. Such moments are unavoidable, but the rarer and less jarring they are, the easier it is to remain immersed. Edited by Rosveen
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Was it immersive in the IE games for a character to be able to haul around a half dozen greatwords, several polearms, a few arbalests and multiple suits of armor, as it were in their backpack, and still enjoy full range of motion and combat effectiveness as long as a weight value based on their Strength score wasn't exceeded?

Haha I know, I know, as I said it had its flaws, but I was pointing out that I find the Pillars system a step backwards; instead of trying to address the problem is more like: we know you (players) are going to do it wrong, so at least don't be bored.

 

 

OP: Try the first Witcher for a far more internally consistent inventory, and of course the Ultima games which were intuitive, logical and added to the verisimilitude rather than working against other aspects which enhance the realism of the gameworld. The Poe inventory along with a few other features create a dissonance for me as well, personally I find organising an inventory and various other features in a game to be fun, rewarding and satisfying, there is a strategic aspect that I really like. Then again it is a lot of work I imagine to create an intuitive and believable system, as we have seen so few made expecially in modern "evolved" games, so why bother when the majority are happy with less interactivity and more automation?

And yeah, I find the Witcher system, or even the Shadowrun one, a lot more satisfying. Yes, they're complete departures from the IE systems, but maybe it's time to evolve and leave behind certain features, even if they're 'iconic' (iconic like taking an armor from the corpse of female halfling thief to equip it in my 2-meter-tall half-orc male barbarian). For me, playing this kind of games it's about living a story with my character, not hoarding tons of loot... but well, it's my perspective.

I don't want to be whiny about it X) Each developer makes the decission they see fit, and they're probably right from their point of view.

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No explanation even attempted. That's what makes things unimmersive: when you're reminded that you're just playing a game, not living in a world. Such moments are unavoidable, but the rarer and less jarring they are, the easier it is to remain immersed.

 

If only people were more consistent about the abstractions that they allow themselves to be unimmersed by. Rationalizing fast loot management is beyond the pale, but recovering from grievous wounds (severe Health damage) after eight hours of camping seems to get a pass. Handwaved for the sake of smooth gameplay, as it were. I could be really jarred by the recuperative miracles of PoE camping, if I chose to be. Or dozens of other examples.

 

Inventory management where it really matters is still in PoE: equipped items, quick slots, weapon sets, etc. Extended inventory management is vastly streamlined and improved over the previous IE standard of "click and drag hundreds of items into bags of holding."

Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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No explanation even attempted. That's what makes things unimmersive: when you're reminded that you're just playing a game, not living in a world. Such moments are unavoidable, but the rarer and less jarring they are, the easier it is to remain immersed.

 

If only people were more consistent about the abstractions that they allow themselves to be unimmersed by. Rationalizing fast loot management is beyond the pale, but recovering from grievous wounds (severe Health damage) after eight hours of camping seems to get a pass. Handwaved for the sake of smooth gameplay, as it were. I could be really jarred by the recuperative miracles of PoE camping, if I chose to be. Or dozens of other examples.

 

Inventory management where it really matters is still in PoE: equipped items, quick slots, weapon sets, etc. Extended inventory management is vastly streamlined and improved over the previous IE standard of "click and drag hundreds of items into bags of holding."

 

Yeah, you could be grumpy about everything, but I found this stash feature a little... well, as Rosveen has said, 'gamey'. I feel that as a concesion to players, not a really well worked feature. I'm not saying you should look under every stone for consistency or immersion; but some things feel well integrated, and some others... not. And for me, the stash is one of those. For me.

And the bag of holding in Baldurs Gate appears VERY late in the game. I'm not really sure right now, but I think you only adquire the global bag of holding in Throne of Baal; and before that, a potion bag or a gem pouch or a scroll container are very logical. But the thing is, you have to get all these things, you have to find them, or spend money on them or fight for them, so when you finally get them there's a feeling of accomplishment, somehow. You don't encounter kobolds throwing bags of holding to your face the day after leaving candlekeep. There's a road to them, and that's one of the little things that helps in the construction of a certain feeling of achievement. You feel your PC is growing in power and resourcefulness, not only because he's capable of hit the enemies harder.

Edited by Elthalas
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[...],  yes? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

It seems that we agree that the current stash is unexplainable, that it was a pragmatic decision, and that they have to be made. For you this one is of no significance, for me it has little. So...yes;).

 

agreed.  only reason we respond is 'cause genesis poster observed that the absence o' an explanation destroyed immersion and you observed that, "details like this are crucial in building general atmoshpere of the game."  am not gonna get into all the things wrong with immersion complaints, but our point simple were that the degree to which the stash destroys immersion is highly subjective.  is such details crucial?  not universal.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Well i hear you. Let's just say that for some people (like the OP, Pampa, or me), it's a real annoyance. Call me crazy, but i would deeply prefer an old system like BG. The tetris in the inventory was somewhat painful, but it made sense to me. Since you can't pick up everything you come across, you have to make choices: will i take this bow or the sword? Just natural. I don't like this "click here and grab it all, and put it all in the... the what by the way?"

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No explanation even attempted. That's what makes things unimmersive: when you're reminded that you're just playing a game, not living in a world. Such moments are unavoidable, but the rarer and less jarring they are, the easier it is to remain immersed.

 

If only people were more consistent about the abstractions that they allow themselves to be unimmersed by. Rationalizing fast loot management is beyond the pale, but recovering from grievous wounds (severe Health damage) after eight hours of camping seems to get a pass. Handwaved for the sake of smooth gameplay, as it were. I could be really jarred by the recuperative miracles of PoE camping, if I chose to be. Or dozens of other examples.

 

Inventory management where it really matters is still in PoE: equipped items, quick slots, weapon sets, etc. Extended inventory management is vastly streamlined and improved over the previous IE standard of "click and drag hundreds of items into bags of holding."

 

 

Well, the miraculous camping is another big problem i have in PoE. The system in BG was way better to me. And this miraculous healing while sleeping defeats the purpose of healing spells to me. That's why you can't find a damn healing spell which actually "heals". Which annoys me much, since i used to love priests in BG.

 

Elthalas said everything about the stash :). kudos.

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An army of invisible and invulnerable donkeys that follows you trough the world?

 

A bottomless bag of holding?

 

Or are you in possesion of a magical wand capable of reducing objects to a miniature size?

 

 

I'm curious...

 

PS. I'm dissapointed with that feature... I mean, if you are trying to enhance immersion with the limited camp supplies (a great idea), you shoudn't destroy it with an inventory of infinite capacity.

I dislike it as well. The Stash doesn't prevent degenerate gameplay. On the contrary, it guarantees it. The existance of the stash combined with the lack of weight allowance per player or a combined one for the party, turns the player into a vacuum cleaner.

 

By extension of the "going back and forth is degenerate gameplay" logic, one could argue that having to go to a shop to sell loot is also degenerate gameplay, because you have to go back and forth from the place of battle to the shop. Why not just make a "Poof!" sound and when you pick up loot with the right mouse button, just turn the loot into money? Now that indeed is degenerate gameplay.

 

In a PnP game, I've rarely had strict limitations on the total amount of loot I can carry, but if you try to exploit it, the DM would smack you down hard, for trying to play a videogame and not an RPG:

 

"Due to the clatter of the 25 dark elven swords you are carrying, you have now attracted the attention of a nest of gricks. Oh, my, you are almost overwhelmed by disgusting skittering sounds. Roll for initiative."

Since there is no DM in PoE, I would propose that this problem is handled in a way similar to how it was in the IE games. Loot should decay and disappear if it spends more than 10-20 hours on the ground, and inventory should be limited in weight. Any form of stash should be two-ways inaccessible (neither take out nor place items in it) while you are in the wilderness or in dungeon. This way the stash trunk would function as a literal trunk, not as a black hole in Eora's space-time.

Edited by Gairnulf
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A Custom Editor for Deadfire's Data:
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Yeah, you could be grumpy about everything, but I found this stash feature a little... well, as Rosveen has said, 'gamey'. I feel that as a concesion to players, not a really well worked feature. I'm not saying you should look under every stone for consistency or immersion; but some things feel well integrated, and some others... not. And for me, the stash is one of those. For me.

 

I think you're right that it was a concession to players, the good kind, that streamlines secondary processes so that gameplay is focused more on primary features: combat, dialogue, exploration, etc.

 

And contrary to being a poorly worked system, the new stash is robust and feature rich in comparison to the inventory systems that came before. It's also consistent with the trajectory of inventory management design, as that design evolved throughout the IE games. The trend was toward ease of use and better organization. By the time of the most recent IE example, IWD2, there were bags of gem holding, scroll holding, bags of regular holding. The various types of bags were available relatively early in the game (BoH by Shaengarn Bridge?), though the player still had to go through and play a minigame of sorting each item type into its associated container: the perfect blend of immersion and mindless tedium, of immersion through mindless tedium ("I can really imagine myself in the shoes of this character sorting gems and scrolls and daggers into appropriate bags.")? Not in my view.

 

PoE takes the design trend one step further, pushing "bag acquisition" from early in the game right to the very beginning. And instead of hand sorting items into particular containers, due to advances in modern game design the characters in the party manage to sort loot into discrete piles on their own.

 

If the argument is "the right to carry 50 longswords back to town should be earned, not given," I'm not buying it. Most nonmagical gear (read: early game gear) in PoE is worth little compared to the high costs of purchases, even huge piles of such gear. So there's no balance issue, or even really a character progression issue, since the point of hauling loot back to town is about converting that loot into magic items which make the party stronger. By the time large amounts of high value items begin dropping, you're at the point in the game that bags of holding or the equivalent would begin appearing in other games.

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Exoduss, on 14 Apr 2015 - 11:11 AM, said: 

 

also secret about hardmode with 6 man party is :  its a faceroll most of the fights you will Auto Attack mobs while lighting your spliff

 

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No explanation even attempted. That's what makes things unimmersive: when you're reminded that you're just playing a game, not living in a world. Such moments are unavoidable, but the rarer and less jarring they are, the easier it is to remain immersed.

 

If only people were more consistent about the abstractions that they allow themselves to be unimmersed by. Rationalizing fast loot management is beyond the pale, but recovering from grievous wounds (severe Health damage) after eight hours of camping seems to get a pass. Handwaved for the sake of smooth gameplay, as it were. I could be really jarred by the recuperative miracles of PoE camping, if I chose to be. Or dozens of other examples.

 

Inventory management where it really matters is still in PoE: equipped items, quick slots, weapon sets, etc. Extended inventory management is vastly streamlined and improved over the previous IE standard of "click and drag hundreds of items into bags of holding."

 

 

I agree there should be more explanation and mechanics for healing in Poe, simply resting just does not cut it, also I think combat should be far more dangerous, risky and lethal, rather than a chore to be endured. There is far too much handwaving, abstraction and streamlining in modern gaming that results in games playing themselves more and having less interactivity. There are even players who campaign for this, actually want games to have less features, content and interactivity as if in the last twenty years we have not seen them become insultingly simplistic and accessible. Thus we have storytime modes for those who want the game to play itself, true degeneracy. 

 

The stash is just a perfect demonstration of this, an unexplained, simplistic infinite bag with no internal consistency, that undermines the verismilitude of the gameworld and encourages degenerate gameplay. Heaven forefend that instead of hoovering up loot like a kleptomaniac there exists a balanced economy in the world, that rewards are substantial enough to risk the endeavour rather than requiring the anal collection of junk, or that treasure is actually treasured and valuable such as gems, gold coins,nuggets and bars, jewellery or similar high value items that are convenient to carry and yet return a very good investment.

 

Of course one gets the player who demands that games stick to their supposed "core" features of the now usual alternate combat and conversation, and think of anything that serves to expand the gameworld and create depth as boring, but they are of course wrong. RPGs are not limited to combat and conversation, as a GM I would be profoundly ashamed were I to present my players with such an insultingly dumbed down experience, because RPGs can encompass almost anything, there are no "core" features, here the only limit is the GMs imagination. Combat and conversation is such a small part of what should be an adventure into another world, to explore the different cultures, arts, species and fantastical elements that make that world and become lost in a theatre of conflict that has verisimilitude, detail and a realistic life of its own.

 

Of course there is also the subject of progression, in Ultima 6 or 7 for instance I was always pleased to find a bag, backpack or other container that would add to my characters inventory, enable one to carry and organise ones equipment more viably, and of course enable a progression from a down at heel wanderer to a fully prepared adventurer. Instead in Poe we have no progression and the character has everything at the beginner, as if they are a child who must have all they want right now, thus the gameworld the inventory and other systems are rendered insultingly simplistic. Take for instance the great inventory aid spells of AD&D, from Tenser's Flying Disc to Leomund's Chest and beyond, all of these great spells are rendered pointless and dispensed with, robbing the world of yet more colour and variety. Or take the adventurers most cherished item, the Bag of Holding, this is truly the apex of the adventurers trade and yet we have a feature less and unexplained version of it from the get go, thus the accomplishment of finding and gaining such equipment is also robbed from the player. There is simply now no progression, no satisfaction and all in the name of simplification, as if games have not become simplified enough in the last few decades!

 

It is strange how limited RPGs have become and how players now campaign for less from their games, once games used to boast of features, content and ambition while now streamlining, dumbing down and automation are seen as good things. One has to wonder where it will end, will games just play themselves eventually and the player be merely a passenger? It must be good for a dev to have to do far less to please these players, but for those who were raised on games that tried to flesh out their gameworlds and provide other experiences and features than just the "core" these have become tedious, mundane and unbelievable gameworlds that spark little interest.

 

Personally I could do with far more interesting and satisfying non combat or conversation systems, I am hardly challenged or even stimulated by rote repetition of the same streamlined features every RPG is now limited to. I remember fumbling practise on a lute in Betrayal at Krondor, swapping tips on smithing with a canny Dwarf in the Mac Mordain Cadal, baking bread in Britannia, returning to the jewellers with a bag full of valuable gems and jewellery, travelling to the Royal Mint and exchanging gold nuggets and bars for currency, trying to rob said Mint in the dark of the night, stopping in the wilderness to gather reagents, solving cunning riddles on Moredhel chests, using spells outside combat for a host of useful and interesting effects, examining my cloth map and using a sextant to judge my position in the world, sitting down on a chair in an inn, listening to the house band play their music, ordering food and drink and then relaxing while the world moved on around me and the NPCs went about their daily routine. I may well have been spoiled however, but should not a wise consumer want and ask for more, or at least the equal of decades old systems?

Edited by Nonek
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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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I agree there should be more explanation and mechanics for healing in Poe, simply resting just does not cut it, also I think combat should be far more dangerous, risky and lethal, rather than a chore to be endured. There is far too much handwaving, abstraction and streamlining in modern gaming that results in games playing themselves more and having less interactivity. There are even players who campaign for this, actually want games to have less features, content and interactivity as if in the last twenty years we have not seen them become insultingly simplistic and accessible. Thus we have storytime modes for those who want the game to play itself, true degeneracy. 

 

The stash is just a perfect demonstration of this, an unexplained, simplistic infinite bag with no internal consistency, that undermines the verismilitude of the gameworld and encourages degenerate gameplay. Heaven forefend that instead of hoovering up loot like a kleptomaniac there exists a balanced economy in the world, that rewards are substantial enough to risk the endeavour rather than requiring the anal collection of junk, or that treasure is actually treasured and valuable such as gems, gold coins,nuggets and bars, jewellery or similar high value items that are convenient to carry and yet return a very good investment.

 

Of course one gets the player who demands that games stick to their supposed "core" features of the now usual alternate combat and conversation, and think of anything that serves to expand the gameworld and create depth as boring, but they are of course wrong. RPGs are not limited to combat and conversation, as a GM I would be profoundly ashamed were I to present my players with such an insultingly dumbed down experience, because RPGs can encompass almost anything, there are no "core" features, here the only limit is the GMs imagination. Combat and conversation is such a small part of what should be an adventure into another world, to explore the different cultures, arts, species and fantastical elements that make that world and become lost in a theatre of conflict that has verisimilitude, detail and a realistic life of its own.

 

Of course there is also the subject of progression, in Ultima 6 or 7 for instance I was always pleased to find a bag, backpack or other container that would add to my characters inventory, enable one to carry and organise ones equipment more viably, and of course enable a progression from a down at heel wanderer to a fully prepared adventurer. Instead in Poe we have no progression and the character has everything at the beginner, as if they are a child who must have all they want right now, thus the gameworld the inventory and other systems are rendered insultingly simplistic. Take for instance the great inventory aid spells of AD&D, from Tenser's Flying Disc to Leomund's Chest and beyond, all of these great spells are rendered pointless and dispensed with, robbing the world of yet more colour and variety. Or take the adventurers most cherished item, the Bag of Holding, this is truly the apex of the adventurers trade and yet we have a feature less and unexplained version of it from the get go, thus the accomplishment of finding and gaining such equipment is also robbed from the player. There is simply now no progression, no satisfaction and all in the name of simplification, as if games have not become simplified enough in the last few decades!

 

It is strange how limited RPGs have become and how players now campaign for less from their games, once games used to boast of features, content and ambition while now streamlining, dumbing down and automation are seen as good things. One has to wonder where it will end, will games just play themselves eventually and the player be merely a passenger? It must be good for a dev to have to do far less to please these players, but for those who were raised on games that tried to flesh out their gameworlds and provide other experiences and features than just the "core" these have become tedious, mundane and unbelievable gameworlds that spark little interest.

 

Personally I could do with far more interesting and satisfying non combat or conversation systems, I am hardly challenged or even stimulated by rote repetition of the same streamlined features every RPG is now limited to. I remember fumbling practise on a lute in Betrayal at Krondor, swapping tips on smithing with a canny Dwarf in the Mac Mordain Cadal, baking bread in Britannia, returning to the jewellers with a bag full of valuable gems and jewellery, travelling to the Royal Mint and exchanging gold nuggets and bars for currency, trying to rob said Mint in the dark of the night, stopping in the wilderness to gather reagents, solving cunning riddles on Moredhel chests, using spells outside combat for a host of useful and interesting effects, examining my cloth map and using a sextant to judge my position in the world, sitting down on a chair in an inn, listening to the house band play their music, ordering food and drink and then relaxing while the world moved on around me and the NPCs went about their daily routine. I may well have been spoiled however, but should not a wise consumer want and ask for more, or at least the equal of decades old systems?

 

This screed is just flat out ridiculous.  Let's skip over the slight on combat, that's a whole other kettle of wrong fish.

 

Would I like a donkey like dungeon siege as an explanation for the stash? Yes.  Does it ruin the game? No.  Player inventories are ridiculous abstractions anyways.  Playing inventory tetris can be fun but don't tell me medieval warriors walked around fully armored with three suits of plate armor in a backpack.  Virtually every single game of the last twenty years has chosen inventory space over verisimilitude for a reason; this is one case where verisimilitude sucks.  A lot of inventory management is an unexplained abstraction, and this has been true throughout games.  Remember in Ultima 7 where you would have to have a squire travel with you at all times to put on and take off your armor in a lengthy and cumbersome process?  No, because it didn't happen for good reason.

 

And about fungible currencies; Morrowind did that.  And it sucked.  It turns out it's not fun traveling from trader to trader maxing out their available gold.  It's a game not a Hayek simulator.  Diablo did the whole gold and other valuable items take up space thing, and it also sucked.  I would wander back to town, and just drop pile after pile of gold.  Clearly it's unrealistic streamlining to want to be able to buy and sell your stuff all at once.

 

The idea that finding larger and larger bags is realistic at all is stupid.  What, it's easier to buy a sword than three pieces of leather stitched together?  The main characters come from towns where everyone has purses?  It might make for fun progression, but that's another case of the designer choosing what they think is fun over realism.

 

The extra parts of RPGs are fun sometimes.  It makes a nice bit of realism when you see mundane items included in the world.  It can even lead to emergent gameplay, like Skyrim's bucket robberies.  I wouldn't call it part of the core experience though.  And there is a significant technical cost for including those types of elements.  It costs time, money, bugs, loading time, and instability to put that stuff in.  There's a reason that many of the best RPG companies have gone out of business.  There's a reason that Jeff Vogel uses the exact same engine for all his games and has graphics that look like butt.  I can appreciate those elements when I see them, but I can't blame Obsidian for not wanting to quixotically chase the perfect game over a cliff.  The wilderness areas make it clear they had money troubles as is.

 

Finally, the last and perhaps greatest flaw of this argument is that it's criticizing this game for not being a game it didn't want to be.  I understand the criticism of the stash as not being like the IE games; I think it's wrong, but it's a valid criticism.  This game was not trying to be Wizardry or Betrayal at Krondor.  Sure, they may be decent games, but the Infinity Engine games felt significantly different to them in many respects.  It also doesn't feel like a jrpg or an FPS; that's not a problem, that's not what they were trying to do.  As a consumer, if you want those games, go buy from someone making those games, or back those games on kickstarter.

Edited by anameforobsidian
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[...],  yes? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

It seems that we agree that the current stash is unexplainable, that it was a pragmatic decision, and that they have to be made. For you this one is of no significance, for me it has little. So...yes;).

 

 

We did? What is wrong with a bottomless bag of holding? We do have a magic world full of artifacts. And bags of holding is an old custom.

 

Those having immersion problems are always free to ignore the stash, fill in their inventory only and continue to travel between loot and nearest merchant as many times as they want.

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[...], yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

It seems that we agree that the current stash is unexplainable, that it was a pragmatic decision, and that they have to be made. For you this one is of no significance, for me it has little. So...yes;).

We did? What is wrong with a bottomless bag of holding? We do have a magic world full of artifacts. And bags of holding is an old custom.

 

Those having immersion problems are always free to ignore the stash, fill in their inventory only and continue to travel between loot and nearest merchant as many times as they want.

Or we can choose not to travel endlessly between loot and merchants and instead take only what's immediately useful. I'm planning to do this in my next playthrough, I'm curious about the financial difference it will make. I currently have more money than I know what to do with, but ignoring all generic loot might be problematic in early game. I think I might still use the Stash for collecting ingredients and unique items, though. Would it be safe to put them in a random container in Caed Nua? I don't think they respawn? Edited by Rosveen
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In the difficulty settings there is an option you can un-check for "accessing the stash from anywhere".  I don't know exactly what it does since I've never tried it, but  from the name, it sounds like it might restrict stash access to inns or locations where you conceivably would have a big old chest to store things, and not let you access it from dungeons and such.  Maybe that's similar to what some folks want to see?

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In the difficulty settings there is an option you can un-check for "accessing the stash from anywhere". I don't know exactly what it does since I've never tried it, but from the name, it sounds like it might restrict stash access to inns or locations where you conceivably would have a big old chest to store things, and not let you access it from dungeons and such. Maybe that's similar to what some folks want to see?

It only allows you to take items from the stash in towns or when resting, but still allows you to put items in the stash.

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It only allows you to take items from the stash in towns or when resting, but still allows you to put items in the stash.

 

 

Ah, I see.  Seems like it should be symmetric.  Then it'd be what people are asking for, and that makes sense anyway: if you can't get to a chest to take stuff out, you also can't put stuff in.

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This screed is just flat out ridiculous.  Let's skip over the slight on combat, that's a whole other kettle of wrong fish.

 

Would I like a donkey like dungeon siege as an explanation for the stash? Yes.  Does it ruin the game? No.  Player inventories are ridiculous abstractions anyways.  Playing inventory tetris can be fun but don't tell me medieval warriors walked around fully armored with three suits of plate armor in a backpack.  Virtually every single game of the last twenty years has chosen inventory space over verisimilitude for a reason; this is one case where verisimilitude sucks.  A lot of inventory management is an unexplained abstraction, and this has been true throughout games.  Remember in Ultima 7 where you would have to have a squire travel with you at all times to put on and take off your armor in a lengthy and cumbersome process?  No, because it didn't happen for good reason.

 

And about fungible currencies; Morrowind did that.  And it sucked.  It turns out it's not fun traveling from trader to trader maxing out their available gold.  It's a game not a Hayek simulator.  Diablo did the whole gold and other valuable items take up space thing, and it also sucked.  I would wander back to town, and just drop pile after pile of gold.  Clearly it's unrealistic streamlining to want to be able to buy and sell your stuff all at once.

 

The idea that finding larger and larger bags is realistic at all is stupid.  What, it's easier to buy a sword than three pieces of leather stitched together?  The main characters come from towns where everyone has purses?  It might make for fun progression, but that's another case of the designer choosing what they think is fun over realism.

 

The extra parts of RPGs are fun sometimes.  It makes a nice bit of realism when you see mundane items included in the world.  It can even lead to emergent gameplay, like Skyrim's bucket robberies.  I wouldn't call it part of the core experience though.  And there is a significant technical cost for including those types of elements.  It costs time, money, bugs, loading time, and instability to put that stuff in.  There's a reason that many of the best RPG companies have gone out of business.  There's a reason that Jeff Vogel uses the exact same engine for all his games and has graphics that look like butt.  I can appreciate those elements when I see them, but I can't blame Obsidian for not wanting to quixotically chase the perfect game over a cliff.  The wilderness areas make it clear they had money troubles as is.

 

Finally, the last and perhaps greatest flaw of this argument is that it's criticizing this game for not being a game it didn't want to be.  I understand the criticism of the stash as not being like the IE games; I think it's wrong, but it's a valid criticism.  This game was not trying to be Wizardry or Betrayal at Krondor.  Sure, they may be decent games, but the Infinity Engine games felt significantly different to them in many respects.  It also doesn't feel like a jrpg or an FPS; that's not a problem, that's not what they were trying to do.  As a consumer, if you want those games, go buy from someone making those games, or back those games on kickstarter.

 

 

1. Abstraction over a well crafted inventory: No a sensible inventory is not ridiculous or an abstraction if done well, no the stash does not ruin the game, it simply detracts from it and works against other aspects of the game. No medieval warriors did not walk around in full armour with three suits of plate in a backpack, this is exactly my point, throughout history the mercenary or soldier has always carried fifty pounds or so of equipment. Almost every single game has chosen abstraction and less work over verisimilitude and detailed design because it is easier and gamers are content with less and less, and actually campaign for this. Verisimilitude shows passion, diligence and a real effort to create a living world over a boring, stripped down experience. One does not need a squire to armour oneself (though I would like to see this in a game,) it is just easier and quicker, Iolo, Dupre or Shamino would of course help in any case.

 

2. Convenience at all costs: And here we have the root of the problem, the gamer who demands that the cycle of kill, loot and repeat not be interrupted by any internal consistency in the gameworld. Whereas I believe that if a store is closed for the night, a reasonable and intuitive assumption, then one should have numerous activities to do in the meantime as well as resting obviously. Thieving, researching, some manner of work, training, fighting pits, meditation, and any of a host of other things that would make for a far more interesting gameworld rather than the usual dull grind. This variety to me is fun and a break from the norm.

 

3. Misunderstanding: I never stated that I wished for larger and larger bags, I said that I when I found bags and backpacks in Ultima they were useful and I regarded them as useful additions because they expanded my inventory. Play the game and you'll understand, it was simple, intuitive and effective.

 

4. Investment and degeneration: I accept that Obsidian had limited funds anf time with which to make this game, and chose the usual features and content that are all players ask for nowadays and for some reason consider "core" to an RPG, they were also limited by choosing to ape the IE games and the expectations that came with them. However that is not really any of my business, as a consumer I represent me and not the company who are trying to sell me something. When I see that a modern company cannot implement features and content that were introduced a quarter of a century ago, then I am obviously confused, and Obsidian is not by far the most guilty here, for instance their game included a host of weapons, classes and choice that the latest AAA+ multi million product such as Dragon Age 3 does not. There is something fundamentally wrong in the industry here and the consumers who are excusing it.

 

5. Consumer choice: I backed Obsidians dream project because of the strength of their past performance, I have been more than pleased* with many of their titles. One cannot blame me after this barnstorming past performance for expecting a product that would knock my socks off when Obsidian were free of publisher restraints and working on a project they wanted to, this seems reasonable and I had high hopes for the product due to the games mentioned. Torment, BG, IWD, the best of all three, that is a very strong selling point and I expected more. In many ways I was not disappointed, the art style, the interesting world, the illustrated sequences and various other aspects are all pleasing to me, however in other areas I find that the game is lacking and will obviously give my criticism and feedback because I wish its next iteration to appeal to me, iterate and improve.

 

7. Addendum: I would like to see these "optional" world building aspects returned to RPGs rather than following the blinkered path of degeneration that has seen gameworlds became mere painted backdrops over the years, and I think this is worth campaigning for. Divinity: Original Sin for instance makes bold steps in this direction because Sven is a fan of the old Ultimas, and even then he admits he cannot implement day/night cycles or NPC routines such as his inspiration had. To me a detailed theatre of conflcit, an interesting, variety of things to do in a game and a step away from the blinkered nonsense that only combat, conversation and loot recycling is the "core" of an RPG is something worth asking for

 

*The Sith Lords made me interested in Star Wars despite my reservations about the setting, and has in my opinion one of the finest, most unusual characters ever created in gaming. NWN2 was though mediocre in many areas a clear step up from the original game, and the expansions were magnificent. Alpha Protocol is a personal favourite, a flawed gem whose ambition and brilliance cannot be tarnished by a bug on a certain path of the Al Samad airfield. Fallout: New Vegas was a masterpiece of choice, reactivity and an exercise in worldbuilding that makes sense rather than the nonsensical east coast Bethesda version of Fallout. Dungeon Siege 3 though not by any means a favourite of mine was far better than the self playing game it was inspired by in many ways, and it was an enjoyable experience that I do not regret purchasing, it did its job and surprisingly enough made the generic setting of Ehb both interesting and enthralling, the reactivity to ones choices must also be mentioned.

 

Apologies for the length of the post, I find myself waxing lyrical.

Edited by Nonek
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Quite an experience to live in misery isn't it? That's what it is to be married with children.

I've seen things you people can't even imagine. Pearly Kings glittering on the Elephant and Castle, Morris Men dancing 'til the last light of midsummer. I watched Druid fires burning in the ruins of Stonehenge, and Yorkshiremen gurning for prizes. All these things will be lost in time, like alopecia on a skinhead. Time for tiffin.

 

Tea for the teapot!

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[...], yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

It seems that we agree that the current stash is unexplainable, that it was a pragmatic decision, and that they have to be made. For you this one is of no significance, for me it has little. So...yes;).
We did? What is wrong with a bottomless bag of holding? We do have a magic world full of artifacts. And bags of holding is an old custom.

 

Those having immersion problems are always free to ignore the stash, fill in their inventory only and continue to travel between loot and nearest merchant as many times as they want.

Or we can choose not to travel endlessly between loot and merchants and instead take only what's immediately useful. I'm planning to do this in my next playthrough, I'm curious about the financial difference it will make. I currently have more money than I know what to do with, but ignoring all generic loot might be problematic in early game. I think I might still use the Stash for collecting ingredients and unique items, though. Would it be safe to put them in a random container in Caed Nua? I don't think they respawn?

 

It'd have to be the right size of container though.  Obviously you can't fit a suit of armour in a chest.

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[...], yes?

 

HA! Good Fun!

It seems that we agree that the current stash is unexplainable, that it was a pragmatic decision, and that they have to be made. For you this one is of no significance, for me it has little. So...yes;).
We did? What is wrong with a bottomless bag of holding? We do have a magic world full of artifacts. And bags of holding is an old custom.

 

Those having immersion problems are always free to ignore the stash, fill in their inventory only and continue to travel between loot and nearest merchant as many times as they want.

Or we can choose not to travel endlessly between loot and merchants and instead take only what's immediately useful. I'm planning to do this in my next playthrough, I'm curious about the financial difference it will make. I currently have more money than I know what to do with, but ignoring all generic loot might be problematic in early game. I think I might still use the Stash for collecting ingredients and unique items, though. Would it be safe to put them in a random container in Caed Nua? I don't think they respawn?

It'd have to be the right size of container though. Obviously you can't fit a suit of armour in a chest.
But just yesterday I could fit it in my pocket!

Seriously though, I don't even know what's available in Caed Nua. The game wasn't designed for keeping stuff in containers, there might not be any right ones. I have to work with what I was given.

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A bottomless bag of holding?

 

That was how I immediately rationalized it, and haven't thought about it since. Perfectly immersive in the D&D fantasy space that PoE inhabits. Most D&D-like games incorporate bags of holding as an anti "inventory tetris" mechanism. And bless the devs for it. I even appreciate little touches like having Shift-click send items directly into the stash of holding, instead of clicking and dragging.

 

And selling directly to a merchant from the stash? Praise Eothas. A small amount of abstraction for the sake of a large reduction in drudgery is worth it. Area loot? Hallelujah.

 

I never thought of PoE as a D&D like and even after thinking about your comment a bit I don't see the resemblance. What exactly do you mean?

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