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They leave, I'm afraid. tongue.png As for the bog scales, I got two as I recall - I'm assuming it's the same amount as you get for killing both dragons

You get 4 Bog Scales for killing them not 2. The stat bonus is probably better overall though.

 

 

Definitely. The problem with new top tier enchantments is that if you didn't plan for them ahead of time, most of your gear will be near its enchantment limit anyway - in my case, I could only enchant two of my armors to Legendary anyway (and none of my weapons).

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Seriously, this battle is the real last. (Kraken is... lol so easy, its shame) So, 4 or 2 scales... Its useless.

 

Sceptenar >

 

No I love RP But it's called the challenge. At one point, you want to test your build with an "ultimate" battle.

 

I personally want courroner my part with this battle , so I will avoid (unfortunately) this bonus, for my future new game.
 
RP is RP, this game is not RP. RP = I should be able to make the pact with Lengrath and then kill her after that if i want. (But she magically disappears with her two creatures...)
 
So no, its not totally RP, guys...
Edited by theBalthazar
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Seriously, this battle is the real last. (Kraken is... lol so easy, its shame) So, 4 or 2 scales... Its useless.

 

Sceptenar >

 

No I love RP But it's called the challenge. At one point, you want to test your build with an "ultimate" battle.

 

I personally want courroner my part with this battle , so I will avoid (unfortunately) this bonus, for my future new game.
 
RP is RP, this game is not RP. RP = I should be able to make the pact with Lengrath and then kill her after that if i want. (But she magically disappears with her two creatures...)
 
So no, its not totally RP, guys...

 

Again, you want it both ways. If you want the challenge there is nothing stopping you from doing the fight apart from yourself.

 

And your definition of roleplaying is completely out of whack and clearly stems from your desire to have your cake and eat it too. Role playing is about "playing a role", the freedom to create your own character and control their view of and interaction with the game world. The fact that Llengrath leaves after doing the deal has no impact on whether or not the game is a role playing game, that has to do with game mechanics, you clearly don't have a problem with Llengrath appearing out of nowhere when you enter the area because it means you get to fight her. If your narrow definition of role playing was applied then there would be no role playing games around.

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My definition of Role Play : Liberty to play MY role. Not the role imposed by game.

 

My role is : i want to scam Lengrath (Balthazar is a character "traitor"). Promise to exchange the known data (THE bonus^^), and betray behind just after that (For the battle). Here it is impossible : All this people disappears at once ... So no, I am not free to interpret the role I want.

 

A fade to black (magical disappears) is not very role play...

 

RP : With 10+ in athletics and 20+ in dexterity, they can normally not escape me.

Edited by theBalthazar
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You seem to have a "if I don't get my way it isn't good" mentality. But you need to remember that this is a computer game, absolute freedom isn't possible. The medium imposes limitations. This is once case where you just have to make a choice.

 

Of course you could say that Llengrath being a powerful archmage knows exactly what you are up to and knocks you out with magic after doing the deal, thus the blackout. How does it happen? I believe you will find this enlightening: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/02

Edited by Sceptenar
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With this explanation, Lengrath could use teleportation for escape during the fight (if we choose the fight) : p

 

Like you say, its a computer game, So, its not RP.

 

So...

 

The choice the more dangerous, Requesting more talent, must be make the best reward. = The permanent bonus.

 

Anyway, its not a major problem, because after this combat, the scales or this permanent bonus become useless.

Edited by theBalthazar
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Like you say, its a computer game, So, its not RP.

I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you have to do to arrive at this conclusion from what I said, but your definition of role playing is clearly so narrow I have no interest in continuing this discussion. There is clearly no game that could live up to your standards.

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Yep.

 

RP = pen and paper. Oral, with friends. High liberty, creativity. 

 

RPG = game with creation of a character + go to a univers preformatted. At best, two/three predetermined choice. This approach of the concept of RP, its not RP.

 

Vampire the masquerade REDEMPTION -in multi- with MD (Master of the game in english ?), match with this vision of Real RP.

Edited by theBalthazar
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You seem to have a "if I don't get my way it isn't good" mentality. But you need to remember that this is a computer game, absolute freedom isn't possible. The medium imposes limitations. This is once case where you just have to make a choice.

 

Of course you could say that Llengrath being a powerful archmage knows exactly what you are up to and knocks you out with magic after doing the deal, thus the blackout. How does it happen? I believe you will find this enlightening: https://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/11/02

That gave me a good chuckle.

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Hmm...how do you start this line?

 

You have to have completed White March pt.1 first, including the Crägholdt part. Then for me it was simply starting White March pt. 2, then doing the Iron Flail fort and returning to Stalwart. Then there should be a scene near the west entrance that starts the quest sending you to Mowrghek Ien.

 

 

I've gone from the main game pre Twin Elms to Stalwart ... completed the White Forge quest ... then went directly to TWM2. Again in Stalwart, I immediately followed the main quest and skipped all the side-quests. I've never had an option to travel to Mowrghek len. After completing the main quest, I'm back in Stalwart and can start all the side-quests, of course, but nothing happens at the west village gate. Is it really depending on the Crägholdt quest ... ?

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Hmm...how do you start this line?

 

You have to have completed White March pt.1 first, including the Crägholdt part. Then for me it was simply starting White March pt. 2, then doing the Iron Flail fort and returning to Stalwart. Then there should be a scene near the west entrance that starts the quest sending you to Mowrghek Ien.

 

 

I've gone from the main game pre Twin Elms to Stalwart ... completed the White Forge quest ... then went directly to TWM2. Again in Stalwart, I immediately followed the main quest and skipped all the side-quests. I've never had an option to travel to Mowrghek len. After completing the main quest, I'm back in Stalwart and can start all the side-quests, of course, but nothing happens at the west village gate. Is it really depending on the Crägholdt quest ... ?

 

 

Yes it is. Llengrath's quest is the conclusion of the Cragholdt quest, the 2 are interconnected. Good luck!

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since this thread is already hard spoilering, can someone post the special spells in the Llengrath Grimoire ? :3

Spoilers incoming:

 

Level VIII: Llengrath's Dread Haze

Level VII: Llengrath's Siphoning Image

Level VI: Llengrath's Blunt Wisdom

Level IV: Llengrath's Mental Shields, Llengrath's Physical Shields

 

Descriptions: http://i.imgur.com/I1Qdnwy.jpg

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Hmm...how do you start this line?

 

You have to have completed White March pt.1 first, including the Crägholdt part. Then for me it was simply starting White March pt. 2, then doing the Iron Flail fort and returning to Stalwart. Then there should be a scene near the west entrance that starts the quest sending you to Mowrghek Ien.

 

 

I've gone from the main game pre Twin Elms to Stalwart ... completed the White Forge quest ... then went directly to TWM2. Again in Stalwart, I immediately followed the main quest and skipped all the side-quests. I've never had an option to travel to Mowrghek len. After completing the main quest, I'm back in Stalwart and can start all the side-quests, of course, but nothing happens at the west village gate. Is it really depending on the Crägholdt quest ... ?

 

 

Actually, how you trigger the Mowrghek Ien quest is to walk to the west side of Stalwart village near the west gate, and you'll come across a couple of locals watching over a dead body.  Talk to them, and you'll eventually get the quest relating to the Mowrghek Ien area.  This event probably appears and occurs only after you've completed the Cragholdt quest.  I don't know this for a fact, but given the events and so on in the Mowrghek related quest, it seems highly likely.

 

As for what Bathory said, you don't immediately know that this quest is related to the Cragholdt quest, but eventually you figure it out.

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Yep.

 

RP = pen and paper. Oral, with friends. High liberty, creativity. 

 

RPG = game with creation of a character + go to a univers preformatted. At best, two/three predetermined choice. This approach of the concept of RP, its not RP.

 

Vampire the masquerade REDEMPTION -in multi- with MD (Master of the game in english ?), match with this vision of Real RP.

 

You should get your terms right, Balthazar.

 

Pen and paper role playing is still an RPG.  PoE is a cRPG, i.e. a computer RPG. 

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Its a true problem for this bonus. 

 

This fight is great. So I preferred to have everything... It is unfortunate that some coward will don't engage the battle, for gain the bonus and don't take a risk...
 
Restrictive choice.
 

there is no merit to have 17 in intelligence.

 

Yes, multiple options in a role-playing game is bad... Seriously guy, having options is what role playing games is all about. I'm quite pleased that there is a way to reason with Llengrath.

 

And you don't get the same reward if you resolve it peacefully as if you do the fight. The peaceful solution gets you a unique bonus that can't be earned any other way, and two bog dragon scales. Doing the fight gets you four bog dragon scales and Llengrath's grimoire which contains unique spells that cannot be earned any other way. Whatever you choose you gain something and loose something. And I for one like it when we have a choice, and that choice is a REAL choice.

 

And your assertion that 17 intelligence is pointless is just plain wrong, my wizard has 18 intelligence boosted to 20 with items, so his spells have wide radius and long duration, which is very useful for a debuff wizard like mine.

 

 

I don't think that it's having multiple options that grinding Balthazar's gears.  I think that he feels that you should get a bigger reward for fighting than not fighting because he seems to feel that there's no challenge to the not fighting option, and that if you want bigger rewards you should have to take bigger risks.  I don't think that he's opposed to their being a reward for a non-violent solution.  Just that it shouldn't be as good as the reward for winning a very tough battle.

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Its a true problem for this bonus. 

 

This fight is great. So I preferred to have everything... It is unfortunate that some coward will don't engage the battle, for gain the bonus and don't take a risk...
 
Restrictive choice.
 

there is no merit to have 17 in intelligence.

 

Wonderful.  Just wonderful.  Calling people "cowards" for seeking a non-violent solution in a computer RPG?  Seriously?  How low can you go?

 

I can absolutely see how RPG game writers could write up a part of their story so that the non-violent path was the better solution.  Frankly, WM1/2 is full of cases where seeking a non-violent end to a problem pays off with benefits later.

 

 

If you get a truce with the Ogre Matron whose clan attacked Stalwart at the very start of WM1, her clan will help you in two instances.  First, the big battle of something Field against the guy trying to take Caed Nua from you.  And second, she'll give you a chance to call on 3 of her best warriors in the final battles against the Eyeless.

 

If you end the Iron Flail situation non-violently, the Iron Flail will give you assistance (in the form of some bombardment with their siege weapons) in those final battles against the Eyeless.

 

Note that in both of these cases, you probably do end up having to hack and slash your way to the leader before you have a chance to end the situation non-violently.

 

 

 

 

As for the fight against Llengrath and her 2 dragons, I've only fought the battle once and lost.  But I have gone through the opening dialog.  And from what I read, I'm not exactly seeing why Llengrath is such a major threat that requires the Watcher to have to take her out.  I don't recall her talking about any nefarious evil schemes that need thwarting, etc.  So if your PC meets the min requirements to seek out a non-violent solution, then it seems to me to that taking a non-violent solution in this case is NOT a bad choice.  OTOH, if you just want to go for the fights, more power to you.  But don't be so insulting towards those who actually want to (horrors!) role play a (computer) role playing game.

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Moving on...

 

 

I've seen very little talk about strats for winning this fight.  SO, if you've fought and won this battle, what did you do?  What worked for you?  Who did you focus on first?  And so on.  And did you find that the party mix you first tried the battle with wasn't good enough and did you head back to Caed Nua to change your party's line up?

 

 

 

At this instant (the save right before the battle), my party consists of:  my PC rogue, Eder (wielding Abydon's Hammer or Tidefall), Pallegina, Kana (who has the anti-beast estoc, Drake's Bell), Durance, and Grieving Mother (Stormcaller is her weapon of choice).  Does this party mix have the firepower to get the job done, or do I need to retreat to Caed Nua and add in my level 16 wizard (probably replacing Kana)?

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Worth noting that if you complete the encounter in a peaceful way (only requires a 16/17 intellect check iirc) you still get bog dragon scales and a permanent stat buff as a token of thanks from Llengrath. Was also rather satisfying - some decent writing here.

 

I was just able to get a non-violent resolution to the meeting, and without my PC being a wizard and having an INT below the requirement (my PCs' INT is only 10 with equipment buffs).  I just needed to have a strongly Honest reputation and swear on my honor to keep secret something about Concelhaut.

 

Gotta say, I was a little surprised.  I wasn't expecting to to be able to avoid the fight with my PC Rogue's lowish INT.  (I may still reload and try the fight for its own sake though.)   In a way, it was nice to see that my PC's reputation for Honesty came in really handy for actually resolving a situation, beyond just opening up the occasionally interesting dialog option.

 

And as I said above, when you really read what Llengrath says, she doesn't really come off as some nasty evil wizard who needs to be dealt with, having a non-violent solution in this situation seemed like a solid role playing decision for my character.

Edited by Crucis
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You should be fine. Kana now has access to a chant that gives a huge dmg bonus and ACC bonus against dragons btw.

 

The great thing is that you have buff time. You can get off two rounds of buffing before **** hits the fan. Have Durance casting the two buffs you find most important. Get your primary tank/dps to sip a DAOM potions. and most important use scrolls. Prayer against fear, imprisonment, treachery etc. Make sure you get them up. This makes this fight way more doable.

 

I would personally focus on Llengrath and the smaller(weaker) dragon first. Make sure you use standard dragon tactics in that you should be trying to debuff them and get any kind of DR reduction possible.

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Crucis, could you spoiler-tag post the dialog options you chose for avoiding the fight?

 

I had 10 INT and at least 3 ranks (if not 4) in Honest and couldn't seemingly avoid the confrontation (not that I wouldn't have reloaded to kill the dragons :p)

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Crucis, could you spoiler-tag post the dialog options you chose for avoiding the fight?

 

I had 10 INT and at least 3 ranks (if not 4) in Honest and couldn't seemingly avoid the confrontation (not that I wouldn't have reloaded to kill the dragons :p)

 

I don't remember them exactly, and I don't have the game up with the dialogs I chose on screen.  I can only go from memory.

 

What it came down to is I picked whatever options seemed the most diplomatic (not necessarily meaning there was a [Diplomatic X] tag) and seeking a non-violent outcome.  I think that the final one that worked was something along the lines of:

 

 

"What if I promise to not tell anyone on my word of honor?"  That's just a paraphrase, not an exact quote.

 

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I think she laughed in my face when I tried something similar. I just had to kill her after that--but not before killing her beloved dragons before her eyes :p

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Hi Guys,

 

My first post here. Loved the game, even though I liked BG2, NWN2 and DA:O abit better.

 

I managed the peaceful resolution with Llengrath and it was very satisfying in terms of RP and the permanent stat boots. My dual wield rogue PC triggered two options for convincing Llengrath. If I remember correctly it was [Honest 2] and Resolve [19 or 20]. I went with Resolve because at that time I didn't really understand the game mechanics behind these choices and I didn't think such low honestly requirement would 'convince' Llengrath.

 

Hope this helps.

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Crucis, could you spoiler-tag post the dialog options you chose for avoiding the fight?

 

I had 10 INT and at least 3 ranks (if not 4) in Honest and couldn't seemingly avoid the confrontation (not that I wouldn't have reloaded to kill the dragons :p)

I didn't like the way the dialogue turns out because you basically have to chicken out and tell her that if she spares you then your watcher abilities might be usefull to her...

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