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A nice solution, that is also pretty easy to implement, is to limit the number of times you cast a "specific" power rather.  This could apply to all casters too, not just cipher.  You must cast one of each spell (per battle at least) until you are allowed to recast a spell.  (The UI can gray it out or something).  That will force people to actually vary their spells which would be more fun, and it would reduce the power level of casters.  No more unloading 6 fireballs in a row.  No more slicken, attack, slicken.

 

 

Not need to unload all the grimoire for efficiency. very few of the same.

 

Personnally, I use very little powers by battle. 

 

But with a wizard, I can send all of them at the following, and I take the advantage away. That's the big difference with Cipher. By cons, you have to know all the possibilities of the class.

Edited by theBalthazar
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I usually play under level against enemies, so the problem with cipher is that when it can't reliably hit enemies, it doesn't get focus.

 

That's where the retaliation build comes up, then it plays more like a monk. But it's still limited by the focus, and doesn't allow for creative tactics. By the time amplified wave is available, it's not when it would make the most difference.

 

The Cipher's self buffs now, they are pretty fun like Wild Leech and psycho shield. But their durations are unpredictable, unlike priest buffs. Again, a lot of their abilities rely on reliably hitting the enemy. And when I'm an under level party against higher level enemies with higher defenses, and without a priest to buff, the cipher falls behind in effectiveness and also due to the playstyle of the class. I much prefer Josh Sawyer's chanter and monk hybrid classes. Monk is like alpha/front built, due to different sources of damage incoming. Chanter is more a compromise, middle of the road, but you can still get good stuff out of it by just running around and kiting.

Edited by Ymarsakar
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Hmm...well, a class suffering due to performing poorly in underleveled situations isn't really a problem with the class, more  an issue of just not meshing with ones personal desire to play the game differently than intended. Considering we almost hit 15 just in the base game alone, not even counting the expansions, we have to go out of our way to be underleveled, so I'd assume the intended state of the game is for it not be an issue. Sorta like if I wanted to say Casters weren't that great a class because they depend on per rests, and my goal is to never really rest. The devs obviously intend pretty frequent resting, so can't hold it against the class that it has to rest.

 

Cipher still has issues on something like Dragons, of course, but those generally come with ample trash to build up focus on. And of course, it can't just open a fight with Amplifed Wave anymore (even with it's heavily nerfed range), but that's what makes it more a balanced class compared to a broken class like the casters. At least these days; it was plenty broken in it's own right in previous iterations, and it still has a few OP things it can do that make it stray from an ideal balance.

Edited by Teioh_White
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Analyzing a class power based on known bugged spell (detonate,amplified thrust) is not a good idea

The power of each spell depends a lot on the difficulty level too. Anything that target fortitude is way less useful on potd

Edited by Agone
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Let's go for my personal class top :

 

Super God Tier :

 

1 - Priest : the answer to all your problems. You can't replace priest, except with ton of scrolls, and you still won't get Crown of the Faithful or Devotion of the Faithful. 

Best buffer, best healer, very nice AoE damages only a bit inferior to wizards and druids.

Priest has mediocre CC for a caster, but that's about it.

 

2 - Wizard : Most of the best CC, crazy AoE DPS, especially with alacrity.

As powerful as Priest, maybe even more, just a bit easier to replace.

 

God Tier :

 

3 - Druid : AoE on par with Wizard.

Can bash everything in melee on basic encounters, which makes him very suitable in balancing your party.

Moonwell is crazy as Buff/Heal.

But his strongest card are Storm spells, especially relentless storm. Relentless storm makes crowd fight so much easier, especially against all the trashes that likes living in dragon's lair...

 

"I really like to have these guys in my party" tier : These guys don't have the raw power of casters, but makes party life a lot easier.

 

4  - Ranger

Best martial DPS overall.

Pet does very good damages and ends with very nice DR that makes it decent as offtank.

Twin arrows and, to a lesser extent, driven flight makes ranger's distance figthting really above anyone else.

He can snipes casters, and do reliable damage against everything else.

Icing on the cake : Crowd controls. Binding roots and Stunning Shots are 2 excellent sources of Single target CC.

Did you already face binding roots ? Then you know how annoying it is to have your melee guys Stuck for 30s. 30s "half-hard" CC as fast cast... and it is just 1 relatively minor card in the ranger's deck...

 

5 - Paladin

Best single target heals, sturdy against about every spells and attacks.

Zealous endurance will make early game far more stressful.

And immolation because AoE DPS is cool.

The ideal frontliner that buff everybody, saves life and does AoE damages...

 

6 Monk

Monk can do about everything : hold the frontline, deals very good DPS (with some AoE), on-demand CC and even powerful summons.

You just have to manage wounds accordingly. Which is not always easy.

That's the limit to his potential. The good point is that he has the most potential when it is the most needed.

 

7 - Cipher

You want a mix of martial DPS and caster ? Here comes the cipher.

His single target CC are probably the best. 

Are you an archer ? Aren't those guys running to you annoying ? Cast Puppetmaster and now they are yours for 20-30s.

Slight weakness against boss cause focus generation will be a bt more limited...

 

Okay Tier : Not as much key members as the ones above, they have less potential in my opinion. But there is currently no bad class IMHO.

 

8 - Chanter

Dragon slashed hard, but Dragon was a bit one poney trick.

Still powerful enough to justify the class.

And in case Dragon won't be efficient, you can just change your trick.

Invocations are rare, but some are very powerful. 

Ah, and chanter can hold the frontline very easily, which worths noticing.

 

9 Fighter

Fighter may not be the most powerful class but they are very reliable.

He hits as hard as Cipher, and hold the front as no other, as they have a couple of "immortality tricks" (triggered immunity and Unbroken).

Charge really added decent AoE potential.

 

10 Barbarian

Rather weak abilities. But carnage is godly. Barbarian will probably end up with the most damages.

Surprisingly, they are very nice offtank with their endurance, health and instant cast self-heal. In most cases, they will hold your flank wihout any problem, especially with a draining Weapon (who said Tidefall ?)

Heart of fury is probably the most damaging AoE of the game by the way, even if slightly situational.

Their downside is that they have close to zero utility when facing single targets. Which happens.

 

11 Rogue

Single Target damages. And that's about it.

Current rogue's problem is that they are in my opinion inferior to Ranger in this role.

Twin Arrows outdamages Rogues ranged capabilities, and combining Ranger and pet attacks will come at least very close to rogue in total DPS (rogue can achieve zero recovery with sky-high Dexterity, lashes, crazy and bonus damages, etc..., so they are probably above... but Ranger can have 2 arrows and a pet, which means 3 attacks per swing as multiplicator...).

But Ranger, as mentionned above, have other cards in his play, like Double Endurance Pools and infinite Single Target CC, and, well, ranged superiority.

Let's face it, the pet itself is at least as sturdy as the rogue, so there can't be too much arguing about "yes but pet is too fragile". Yes, but Rogue too, and Rogue does not have around 25 DR...

Probably the most convenient skill monkey, but that's about their only use apart Single target DPS.

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I'd put fighters and rogues a tier below, there's no reason to take them over another class unless you just really like having Eder around for his banter. Their main issue is that the talents that could make them good or interesting (clear out, into the fray, and the rogue's invisibility thing) are per rest rather than per encounter. 

Edited by falchen
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I so disagree on Fighters :p no news by now, really...

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Hmm, joining the party.

I will disagree on cipher :)

 

This is a monster of both dps and utility.

- Treason/Puppetmaster on ogre druids and adragans.

- Echo and Mind Lance against hordes of enemies standing in a line

- Detonate and Silent Scream aoe damage.

- Amplified Wave. With two ciphers, you can often keep all enemies chain-proned. And it deals solid damage

- Hell even Soul Shock is great. Depending on enemies DR and if you don't need Wave at the moment, you can cast 6 Shocks one after another. That's massive.

- And then there is Disintegration. Cast two of them on the dragon. And just keep healing your party. It won't take long.

- Add the new Mindweb and Going Between.

- And my favorite: ciphers do not scale linearly. The more damage they are able to deal with their weapons, the less starved from focus they are, spiraling out of control.

(and hitting a petrified target, while being affected by lash chant, and gazilion of buffs, nicely help at that) :)

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Mine's same as it's always been. Rankings within a tier are close enough I don't really care, just listed in order they came to mind.

 

Hopelessly Overpowered Tier:

 

Wizard

Druid

Priest

 

Cool Mechanics and Potential to be Balanced, but has some serious Cheese Tier

 

Cipher

Chanter

 

Guys Who Use Silly Weapons In A Land of Magic Tier

 

Monk

Paladin

Rogue

Barbarain

Fighter

Ranger

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Btw, what opinion do you have of Barbarian's "Blood Thirst" talent: "After killing an enemy, the barbarian's Recovery is waived, allowing them to attack again immediately."?

 

Barbarian builds opt for zero (or almost zero) recovery anyway. And waiving 5-10 frames after killing an enemy, doesn't sound like a good deal. 

 

P.S. At first I missread it as: "starts next attack immediately". How do you think balanced that be? With a weird barbarian with firearms in mind? 

Edited by MaxQuest
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Blood thirst sounds lousy to me for the reasons you stated. I don't think it would waive the reload, making it still pretty bad for firearms.  Also, I think carnage only works in melee so you would waste your best ability.  I guess the best use would be if playing solo (and not using speed weapons) just because you are killing all the enemies so it triggers more often and the recovery is a factor.   I wonder if non-direct weapon damage, like scrolls or weapon procs such as firebug or wounding trigger it.

Edited by Braven
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Btw, what opinion do you have of Barbarian's "Blood Thirst" talent: "After killing an enemy, the barbarian's Recovery is waived, allowing them to attack again immediately."?

 

Barbarian builds opt for zero (or almost zero) recovery anyway. And waiving 5-10 frames after killing an enemy, doesn't sound like a good deal. 

 

P.S. At first I missread it as: "starts next attack immediately". How do you think balanced that be? With a weird barbarian with firearms in mind? 

 

It reminds me of the whirlwind on top of a cleave ability. The ability to hit aoe + instant extra attacks. It would apply most of its use before durgan steel is applied. 

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So this ability is more interesting for a Soulbound weapon build than for a double durgan refined rimecutter one.

Yeap. Especially for 2h ones. Since the number of enemies, and hence the number of times this talent has potential to get triggered, is limited.

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It is kinda funny how Barb's have gotten pretty trash abilities in WM, when all the other classes got some pretty great things to help them not be quite so clearly behind. Pld gets the great Immolation and the charm busting Aegis, Monks get silly duel clone powers as an excellent wound dump, Rangers 2x Attack per rounds stance, even Fighters got something in Charge and some situational talents, and Rogues got....err, free deathblows off flanks?

 

Barbs just got trash you'll barely use. I guess the immune to engage talent? Though of all the classes, Barb's the one I cared the least about engagement, as he wants to be stuck in a big pile of trash. Dragon Leap? It's hilarious how much worse than Charge it is in damage and speed getting off. Blood Thirst? As mentioned, literally does almost nothing in a decent build.

 

Still, even with all that, Barb's don't fall to their own special crap tier just because Carnage is so good. Most classes really melee very similar, just with small +0.XX mods and a little attack speed being the difference. Carnage is a legit massive difference in how they attack. It's a shame they've got nothing else to go with it.

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As you just declare, rogue faces a similar problem as barbarian (distraction is quite nice, but not really ultimate skills). WM I favored paladin, rangers and monks. WM II actually provided good stuff for fighters.

Casters have always been ok except chanter who were buffed in 3.0.

 

Now barbarians and rogues who used to be okay feel a bit inferior.

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I think heart of the fury should be "per encounter". (No difference when you rest often at caed nua...)

 

Dragon leap ? + Add Prone effect for 10s. (totally logical when you coming by air. Everybody fall)

 

One stand alone ? Should work WITHOUT red arrow (engagement). Active at 1 metter max for exemple. 3 ennemies detected = activate. Because when C.C. this thing is totally useless and don't work... Also, after many test, the red arrow disapear often... This talent is active 5 % on all of game in reality. bad investment.

 

Echoing shoot ? Don't affect allies, because, if not, its unusable.

 

With this, the Barbarian should be great... Without, at endgame its difficult to play this class.

 

Its very strange because barbarian is really good at start, one of the best. Carnage is the best start talent of the game. I don't understand the choice of developpers.

Edited by theBalthazar
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I think heart of the fury should be "per encounter". (No difference when you rest often at caed nua...)

 

Dragon leap ? + Add Prone effect for 10s. (totally logical when you coming by air. Everybody fall)

 

One stand alone ? Should work WITHOUT red arrow (engagement). Active at 1 metter max for exemple. 3 ennemies detected = activate. Because when C.C. this thing is totally useless and don't work... Also, after many test, the red arrow disapear often... This talent is active 5 % on all of game in reality. bad investment.

 

Echoing shoot ? Don't affect allies, because, if not, its unusable.

 

With this, the Barbarian should be great... Without, at endgame its difficult to play this class.

 

Its very strange because barbarian is really good at start, one of the best. Carnage is the best start talent of the game. I don't understand the choice of developpers.

I basically agree with all you said. Nothing feels OP in your proposal.

 

I especially agree about One Stand Alone because it avoids stupid interaction with eye of the storm and CC.

 

I'll add fast cast and no recovery for both shouts (like paladin exhortation) and barbarian would be ok.

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So this ability is more interesting for a Soulbound weapon build than for a double durgan refined rimecutter one.

Yeap. Especially for 2h ones. Since the number of enemies, and hence the number of times this talent has potential to get triggered, is limited.

 

 

 

Blood Thirst would be good either prior to when you get to zero recovery via durgan enhanced speed weapons or if you went with a different weapon set up that did not have adequate speed to get to zero recovery. If you went with some sort of max damage per swing type build getting Blood Thirst would be good.

 

 

On the Rogues - getting distracted when flanking lets you set up your own deathblows merely with battlefield positioning. This is huge if your team does not abuse massive AoE CC in every fight.

 

 

On Fighters and Ciphers - Ciphers get +40% damage with one class talent that works with every weapon, Fighters get +25% damage in a single weapon group with one class ability and one class talent. Just auto attacking a Cipher does much more damage than a Fighter and uses less resources to do so.

Edited by KDubya
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So this ability is more interesting for a Soulbound weapon build than for a double durgan refined rimecutter one.

Yeap. Especially for 2h ones. Since the number of enemies, and hence the number of times this talent has potential to get triggered, is limited.

 

 

 

Blood Thirst would be good either prior to when you get to zero recovery via durgan enhanced speed weapons or if you went with a different weapon set up that did not have adequate speed to get to zero recovery. If you went with some sort of max damage per swing type build getting Blood Thirst would be good.

 

 

On the Rogues - getting distracted when flanking lets you set up your own deathblows merely with battlefield positioning. This is huge if your team does not abuse massive AoE CC in every fight.

 

 

On Fighters and Ciphers - Ciphers get +40% damage with one class talent that works with every weapon, Fighters get +25% damage in a single weapon group with one class ability and one class talent. Just auto attacking a Cipher does much more damage than a Fighter and uses less resources to do so.

 

 

I wouldn't be so quick to say that one does "much more damage" than the other based on a +40% to +25% comparison.  For comparison's sake, say that each does 20 base damage with a weapon (same weapon for an apples to apples comparison).  +25% equates to +5 HP of damage, while +40% equates to +8 HP of damage.  That doesn't seem like that great a difference to me.  Oh, over the long haul, it'll add up.  But in the short term, it's not that huge a difference.

 

 

 

 

 

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If you want to factor in additional Fighter abilities you can add in a Cipher paralyzing the target first.

 

All I am saying is that a Cipher gets +40% compared to +25% and saves an ability. It is not huge but it is larger. Perhaps using "much more" was inaccurate.

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