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Cipher 3.0 : Power buffed list released by Obsidian


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Did you check the Beta Thread ?

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/7/entry-190-update-notes-300-beta/

 

I really think it's nice.

I think Cipher gameplay will have more variety from now. No more amplified Wave spamming.

The whole package seems far more balanced.

 

Stasis not buffed makes me sad, but c'est la vie. 

 

Also DR from Survival has been divided by 2, which makes sense.

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  • Whisper of Treason changed from long cast time to short cast time.
  • Puppet Master changed from long cast time to an instant cast.
  • Puppet Master base duration increased from 10s to 16s.

Well, that's quite the buff they got, Puppet Master looks incredible now, instant cast with a good duration opens up so many possibilities, especially since Dominate is such a wonderful ailment.

 

 

  • Soul Shock radius increased from 1.25 to 1.75 (2.5m to 3.5m diameter).
  • Mental Binding AoE Stuck duration increased from 4s to 6s.
  • Mental Binding targeted Paralyzed duration to 8s base.
  • Mind Blades base damage raised from 10-20 to 18-28. Each bounce reduces the damage range by 10% (still 5 bounces).

 

Looks like these powers have all returned to their former glory. Well, maybe not entirely the case for Mind Blades, since 10% damage reduction for each jump will hinder it. But at least it looks a lot more promising.

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All good except the Mind Blades. But it depends. When the -10% are calculated with the previous jump = 100% then it's OK. If it's -10% of the base damage then the last jump will get -50% and that's bad because you always have to overcome DR.

 

So variant 1 (base damage 100):

100 -> 90 -> 81 -> 73 -> 66 -> 59

 

Variant 2:

100 -> 90 -> 80 -> 70 -> 60 -> 50

 

Well, not that much of a difference. At least less than I thought. ;)

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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All good except the Mind Blades. But it depends. When the -10% are calculated with the previous jump = 100% then it's OK. If it's -10% of the base damage then the last jump will get -50% and that's bad because you always have to overcome DR.

 

So variant 1 (base damage 100):

100 -> 90 -> 81 -> 73 -> 66 -> 59

 

Variant 2:

100 -> 90 -> 80 -> 70 -> 60 -> 50

 

Well, not that much of a difference. At least less than I thought. ;)

I don't think it will be variant 2 but as you said the difference is not that huge to begin with..

I just don't understand how a nerfe3d ability (and rightly so) is made stronger again.

The original mind blades just wrecked everything, for a level 2 power this was as unacceptable as Echo is for a level 3 power.

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Did you check the Beta Thread ?

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/blog/7/entry-190-update-notes-300-beta/

 

I really think it's nice.

I think Cipher gameplay will have more variety from now. No more amplified Wave spamming.

The whole package seems far more balanced.

 

Stasis not buffed makes me sad, but c'est la vie.

 

Also DR from Survival has been divided by 2, which makes sense.

The accuracy bonus from surv is unchanged and it was better than DR so...

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Mind Blades was really weak after the nerf. Now they buffed and nerfed it at the same time. The damage buff is not too high and with the -10% the overall damage against normal foes will not change much I think. It's now more useful against high DR foes if you target them first and then let it jump to squishier adds.

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Also DR from Survival has been divided by 2, which makes sense.

The accuracy bonus from surv is unchanged and it was better than DR so...

 

 

Accuracy bonus levels could enable choosing additional types of monsters instead of stacking +10 against a single type.

 

+20 Accuracy against Beasts or Vessels can potentially break Adra Dragon, Alpine Dragon and Concelhaut fights (which happens to be the game's greatest challenges). 

Edited by Elric Galad
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Yeah, don't think I'll be using Mind Blades. Amplified Thrust is usually better (still generates focus & hits harder now). Soul Shock was also buffed. Usually prefer debuff/CC on Cipher anyway. Damage has to be really good, like Ecto Echo, to make up for the opportunity cost.

 

A few other thoughts:

 

Whisper of Treason. It feels too good for a level 1 power now. All level 1 powers were buffed indirectly by faster focus gain, and Whisper went from Slow to Fast cast.  I really like the Fast casts, as Ciphers have so many things competing for their time, but it feels a little too good at 10 focus. Not sure what to do there. Puppet Master feels about right, though. Maybe make Whisper Average speed, and leave Puppet at Fast, so you have a choice between spending time or spending focus.

 

Like the boost to Psychovampiric Shield. Not sure it's the best use of focus, but thematically it's nice for a "spellsword" type character. Nice for tank builds too.

 

Mental Binding: the buff helps account for the focus change. Feels about right now.

 

Pain Link is combat only. Don't think I'll be taking it. Not sure how I feel about Tactical Meld. On PotD sure, extra spell accuracy (vs Borrowed Instinct) is sometimes handy. On other difficulty levels, doubtful. Happy they fixed the out-of-combat bug, but those two powers could use some tweaks now.

 

Silent Scream: like the changes. This is a fun way to clean up at the end of combat, if you find yourself with extra focus. Interesting choice between this and Mind Lance, which was also improved.

 

Time Parasite: not sure yet. It's still expensive, but the debuff works better now, and the buff will last a long time, at least.

 

Disintegration: haven't tried much yet, but the change seems helpful. Can open with a gun shot and then throw this on some target.

 

Amplified Wave: the change definitely helps. If you find yourself with enough focus, you'll get a bit more damage and CC out of it than level 1 Mind Wave, at least.

 

+10 starting focus from Greater Focus: this change was already in the previous patch, but it's documented now. Another nice talent, as you can start combat with 1 spell level higher. Especially noticeable at level 6, where it takes you from 20 -> 30 base focus.

 

Extra focus gain: this change is nice. Felt like there was enough focus to cast higher level powers again. It's not too much focus -- you still have to decide between spending focus immediately or saving it -- but it doesn't feel like the class is 70% auto-attacking, or wait-for-the-end-of-combat, as it was in the previous beta patch.

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The accuracy bonus from surv is unchanged and it was better than DR so...

Yeah, the accuracy bonus needs to be halved also (I said that every time I said they needed to halve the DR bonus).

 

I'd still prefer Mental Binding were fast-cast and a second shorter, rather than slower and longer. In release it was a perfect oh-**** button and the class needs that. Though now I guess Puppet Master is that instead.

 

 

Oddly, the description for Antipathic Field has changed and now says it only effects enemies. ("Enemies caught in the beam.") It still actually does hurt allies though (tested, poor Aloth).

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Whisper of Treason. It feels too good for a level 1 power now. All level 1 powers were buffed indirectly by faster focus gain, and Whisper went from Slow to Fast cast.  I really like the Fast casts, as Ciphers have so many things competing for their time, but it feels a little too good at 10 focus. Not sure what to do there. Puppet Master feels about right, though. Maybe make Whisper Average speed, and leave Puppet at Fast, so you have a choice between spending time or spending focus.

Yeah I agree about Whisper. It's too strong now and I don't understand why it got buffed (though I'd still recommend against taking it, because I think Puppet's the better overall option now). If anything I would have given Tenuous Grasp the fast-cast speed and left Whisper at Long.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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Is whisper of treason from Munacra Arret also fast now?

 

If so, that item's just got really interesting (and its cost in gold pieces should probably be increased a little.)

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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Whisper of Treason. It feels too good for a level 1 power now. All level 1 powers were buffed indirectly by faster focus gain, and Whisper went from Slow to Fast cast.  I really like the Fast casts, as Ciphers have so many things competing for their time, but it feels a little too good at 10 focus. Not sure what to do there. Puppet Master feels about right, though. Maybe make Whisper Average speed, and leave Puppet at Fast, so you have a choice between spending time or spending focus.

Yeah I agree about Whisper. It's too strong now and I don't understand why it got buffed (though I'd still recommend against taking it, because I think Puppet's the better overall option now). If anything I would have given Tenuous Grasp the fast-cast speed and left Whisper at Long.

 

Whisper makes some of the tougher low level fights feasible for a party led by a melee focussed cipher.

The behaviour of charmed victims when they are the last foe standing seems inconsistent, it cam:

  • Time out naturally
  • End immediately
  • Enemy remains charmed but attacks you anyway (party can't fight back until charm expires)

 

Greater Focus is HUGE at L2, 20 initial focus instead of 10 makes it almost compulsory.

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Is whisper of treason from Munacra Arret also fast now?

 

If so, that item's just got really interesting (and its cost in gold pieces should probably be increased a little.)

No, items are still the same as before. Munacra Arret's Whisper is still slow cast speed. :(

Also Prayer against XY on items does not grant immunity but +50 defense. Like before. Seems that there's not one source for these kind of spells but several (which is kind of bad, but who knows why they did that).

 

@HawkSoft: Whya can't you fight back charmed enemies? Force attack doesn't work? I always do that because the are so heavily debuffed by the charm effect.

 

Edited by Boeroer

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Whisper of Treason. It feels too good for a level 1 power now. All level 1 powers were buffed indirectly by faster focus gain, and Whisper went from Slow to Fast cast.  I really like the Fast casts, as Ciphers have so many things competing for their time, but it feels a little too good at 10 focus. Not sure what to do there. Puppet Master feels about right, though. Maybe make Whisper Average speed, and leave Puppet at Fast, so you have a choice between spending time or spending focus.

Whisper in general is just a much better use of Focus. With 30 Focus you can cast one Puppet Master or Whisper of Treason and one other 1st or 2nd level power. Dominate is a better effect overall, but generally you're only Dominating or Charming an enemy to keep their heat off you and to distract the enemy, and Charm can do that just as well as Dominate can.

 

 

Like the boost to Psychovampiric Shield. Not sure it's the best use of focus, but thematically it's nice for a "spellsword" type character. Nice for tank builds too.

+25 Deflection is pretty nice, but I've always preferred this Power for its -10 Resolve.

 

-10 Resolve from Psychovampiric Shield is a great way to lower an enemy's deflection and will defense. It also lowers their Concentration as well which great for Interrupting. This also doesn't get suppressed from Miasma of Dull Mindness which means you can get a -16 Resolve on one enemy target. It also doesn't get suppressed by Wild Leech either which could potentially lead to a very tasty -20 Resolve, however Wild Leech does pick a random attribute so it isn't exactly reliable

 

Wild Leech doesn't get suppressed by Miasma either, so in theory you could stack all three and potentially get an incredible -26 Resolve! But I haven't actually tested it, and it would be difficult to test since Wild Leech is so random.

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Whisper of Treason. It feels too good for a level 1 power now. All level 1 powers were buffed indirectly by faster focus gain, and Whisper went from Slow to Fast cast.  I really like the Fast casts, as Ciphers have so many things competing for their time, but it feels a little too good at 10 focus. Not sure what to do there. Puppet Master feels about right, though. Maybe make Whisper Average speed, and leave Puppet at Fast, so you have a choice between spending time or spending focus.

Whisper in general is just a much better use of Focus. With 30 Focus you can cast one Puppet Master or Whisper of Treason and one other 1st or 2nd level power. Dominate is a better effect overall, but generally you're only Dominating or Charming an enemy to keep their heat off you and to distract the enemy, and Charm can do that just as well as Dominate can.

 

I agree that it seems slightly too strong.

Fast cast is not a bad way to make it a bit different from tenuous grasp.

I think reducing its duration to 8s would be better.

 

But as you said, Whisper is only "generally better", especially for the situation you describe.

Dominate is +60% duration, and its effect if more or less twice more powerful (Shut down an ennemy AND gives you an additional teammate, not a gimped weakling.)

In total, its effect is 3.2 times as strong as charm.

 

OK "twice more powerfull" is clearly overestimated :skeptical: . But it also "saves" around 2s casting, so I think it's not that poorly balanced.

 

In conclusion, having different powers for different situation is not that bad for me. Whisper is more or less CIpher's signature spell, so if it becomes their most used spell it won't be so bad.

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As I see it Greater Focus is good to take on level 2 and to respec out of it on level 8. From certain point it is much better to gather more focus by having stronger offensive capabilities or to invest in defenses than having this 10 base focus more.

 

I like the change to the casting times, I'm playing solo mostly and fast casting time change these powers from useless into an interesting option.

 

That harsh nerf to Mind Plague is surprising considerering how much does it cost now.

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I have no objection to re-spec being available for power gamers but as a role player I would prefer to avoid using it at all.

 

I am concerned that focus is starting to feel less like a natural/organic capability and more  like an arbitrary game resource which must be optimised (EG by using re-spec) for the class to remain interesting/viable to play.

 

In v2 Greater Focus was optional, now I'd say it's essential at L2 but may become superfluous and even waste of a talent slot at higher levels. For me this is not an interesting character build progression.

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Honestly, I would never use the respec option to "get out of" a talent or ability. That's not what respec was designed and implemented for in this game to begin with, and it trivializes your character-building choices to the point that it's tantamount to cheating. If people wanna do it, more power to them—but no talent or ability should ever be designed around the notion that "players can respec out of it at a later point anyway." If a talent or ability encourages this kind of gameplay, it needs looking at.

Edited by AndreaColombo
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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses | PoE Items for Deadfire | No Recyled Icons | Soul Charged Nautilus

 

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