[v3.00.929 PX1-Steam] Resting Bonuses are a Mess!

[HawkSoft]

With apologies for the deliberately inflammatory title

 

Making Survival useful is great but the new resting bonuses:

• May make the game (even) easier,
• Seem gamey, EG becoming an expert in slaying XYZ overnight (more suitable for an action RPG than a cRPG?),
• Cause confusion with Inn/Stronghold bonuses,
• Raise the question of why the whole party has to take the same resting bonus at (EG) a fully developed stronghold (10 options) when camping bonuses are chosen per character,
• Have too many options.

Discuss…

 

 

EDIT: For reference I play on normal and appreciate that the situation may be different with other difficulties.

Edited February 1, 2016 by HawkSoft

[limaxophobiacq]

They feel too strong I agree, +4 DR for tanks that easily seems a bit much, but that's the only problem I have with them. They're still not as gamey as stacking 10+ different food bonuses which has been in the game forever.

 

OTOH, Lore is and always has been stupidly powerfull so if the skills are going to balanced at that level Survival is now right where it should be.

 

If skills are supposed to be balanced with eachother non-Lore skills had to be buffed or scrolls have to be nerfed to hell and back.

Edited February 1, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[WorstUsernameEver]

 

• Seem gamey, EG becoming an expert in slaying XYZ overnight (more suitable for an action RPG than a cRPG?),

 

The mechanic is abstracted enough that I'm sure anyone with an imagination could come up with a reasonable explanation. Maybe you've spent time during the night preparing a coating for your weapons that is particularly effective against certain creatures? I'm sure there's a ton of possible explanations.

 

That said, I agree there are some balance concerns and that the differences between the Survival Resting UI and the Inn Resting UI feel at least partially arbitrary.

[HawkSoft]

 

 

• Seem gamey, EG becoming an expert in slaying XYZ overnight (more suitable for an action RPG than a cRPG?),

 

The mechanic is abstracted enough that I'm sure anyone with an imagination could come up with a reasonable explanation. Maybe you've spent time during the night preparing a coating for your weapons that is particularly effective against certain creatures? I'm sure there's a ton of possible explanations.

I'm happy with the idea that you can sit round the campfire and prepare anti-slime arrows (or whatever). What I don't like is that you don't need any other expertise to do it

 

If, say, it required at least one character to have Primal Bane for anyone in the party to select the anti-Primal bonus that that would be cool and enhance my experience of roleplaying

[Tennisgolfboll]

With apologies for the deliberately inflammatory title

 

Making Survival useful is great but the new resting bonuses:

• May make the game (even) easier,
• Seem gamey, EG becoming an expert in slaying XYZ overnight (more suitable for an action RPG than a cRPG?),
• Cause confusion with Inn/Stronghold bonuses,
• Raise the question of why the whole party has to take the same resting bonus at (EG) a fully developed stronghold (10 options) when camping bonuses are chosen per character,
• Have too many options.

Discuss…

 

 

EDIT: For reference I play on normal and appreciate that the situation may be different with other difficulties.

Could not disagree more

 

1. A game will always be easy when you have played through it enough. You learn all the tricks. POE isnt an easy game at all compared to other games. In fact it is one of the absolute hardest so thats simply not true. A small buff isnt gonna make or break the game at all. 

 

2. No. Makes perfect sense. They prepare traps for beasts, special movements to be used against dragons etc. Coating weapons with poison etc. Awesome idea.

 

 

3. Which is it? Does it make the game easier or more confusing (and thus harder)? It isnt confusing at all. Two bonuses isnt confusing in any shape or form.

 

4. Because they all rest in super soft beds so get extra willpower at the inn? But at camp they prepare differently. Someone makes special arrows to pierce dragon scales. The paladin reinforces his armor etc (+DR)

 

5. WHAT NOW???

To many options? I dont even.... speechless

Edited February 1, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll

[AndreaColombo]

1. A game will always be easy when you have played through it enough. You learn all the tricks. POE isnt an easy game at all compared to other games. In fact it is one of the absolute hardest so thats simply not true. A small buff isnt gonna make or break the game at all. 

 

PoE is one of the hardest games? Not IME. Starcraft II? Yes, definitely one of the hardest games to truly master (but can be played by anyone at any level.) PoE just takes understanding its mechancis—then it becomes a cakewalk even on PotD.

 

I wouldn't call camping bonuses a small buff. +4 DR and +10 Accuracy are pretty big, especially in consideration of the fact that they stack with resting bonuses from inns and Caed Nua.

Edited February 1, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

1. A game will always be easy when you have played through it enough. You learn all the tricks. POE isnt an easy game at all compared to other games. In fact it is one of the absolute hardest so thats simply not true. A small buff isnt gonna make or break the game at all. 

 

PoE is one of the hardest games? Not IME. Starcraft II? Yes, definitely one of the hardest games to truly master (but can be played by anyone at any level.) PoE just takes understanding its mechancis—then it becomes a cakewalk even on PotD.

 

I wouldn't call camping bonuses a small buff. +4 DR and +10 Accuracy are pretty big, especially in consideration of the fact that they stack with resting bonuses from inns and Caed Nua.

 

 

You had to bring up a 5 year old game to even try to make a point!? I think you just helped prove my case...

 

Just because you wouldnt call it a small buff does not make it not a small buff. And you dont have +4 dr AND +10 accuracy (for one enemy type). Its one of them.

 

Id say that if you think POE is well balanced then something like that does not make or break the balance.

 

However, if you think the game is very easy and should be made tons harder then i can see where you are coming from. Id still think you were deadwrong (the game isnt easy) but i could see the point. 

 

So where do you stand. Is the balance fine? And this one small buff breaks it?

 

Or is the game to easy? and now they add more OP to the player?

 

I know what my opinion is.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll

[AndreaColombo]

Apart from the fact that Legacy of the Void was released in 2015, a game's difficulty does not depend on the year of its release. Starcraft II being an e-sport, it is still widely played and it is widely considered one of the hardest games to master. PoE, not so much.

 

Just because you wouldnt call it a small buff does not make it not a small buff. And you dont have +4 dr AND +10 accuracy (for one enemy type). Its one of them.

 

I know. My point is that +4 DR is a big deal on its own, and so is +10 Accuracy. You get these bonuses essentially for free (skill point investment barely qualifies as an opportunity cost in this game) and they stack with everything, including other resting bonuses. They are sustainable indefinitely, and of a rather significant magnitude.

 

 

IME, PoE just looks like its hard but really isn't. Once you get a good gripe on the mechanics and see how repetitive and dumb the A.I. tends to be, you'll beat it rather easily. My main issue is with the sharp drop in difficulty once you surpass level 10: The second half of the game is just bloody easy even on Path of the Damned if you know what you're doing (with but one exception, which is the Concelhaut fight—that's a hard fight even at level 14 and for this, I salute the devs.) Adding these bonuses on top of that is too much—and I say that as an inveterate powergamer.

Edited February 1, 2016 by AndreaColombo

[HawkSoft]

@Tennisgolfball, I think we must be playing different games.

Once I had un-learnt my Infinity Engine habits I found combat in PoE straightforward but satisfying: it doesn't require any form of twitch skills or devolve to an elemental game of rock-paper-scissors but bad tactics will hurt your party every time.

 

I feel the survival buffs are too generous and probably should be halved, I also don't understand the in-game rational for only being able to choose 1 benefit out of 6. If I were a character I'd spend an extra 4/8 hours in camp to prepare the anti-venom, buff up the armour and sharpen the weapons (etc.) to ensure I got as many factors in my favour as possible, that's how real world soldiers and sportsmen operate.

 

Confusion comes from the unclear interaction of the camping bonus and the persistent inn bonuses

In my experience it's much easier to order separate meals at an inn/hotel than to cook up more than one type of food whilst camping

[Tennisgolfboll]

Apart from the fact that Legacy of the Void was released in 2015, a game's difficulty does not depend on the year of its release. Starcraft II being an e-sport, it is still widely played and it is widely considered one of the hardest games to master. PoE, not so much.

 

 

Just because you wouldnt call it a small buff does not make it not a small buff. And you dont have +4 dr AND +10 accuracy (for one enemy type). Its one of them.

I know. My point is that +4 DR is a big deal on its own, and so is +10 Accuracy. You get these bonuses essentially for free (skill point investment barely qualifies as an opportunity cost in this game) and they stack with everything, including other resting bonuses. They are sustainable indefinitely, and of a rather significant magnitude.

 

 

IME, PoE just looks like its hard but really isn't. Once you get a good gripe on the mechanics and see how repetitive and dumb the A.I. tends to be, you'll beat it rather easily. My main issue is with the sharp drop in difficulty once you surpass level 10: The second half of the game is just bloody easy even on Path of the Damned if you know what you're doing (with but one exception, which is the Concelhaut fight—that's a hard fight even at level 14 and for this, I salute the devs.) Adding these bonuses on top of that is too much—and I say that as an inveterate powergamer.

Its a nice small buff. For putting alot of pts in survival.

 

We will still need mechanics on one character. Lore and stealth has its uses.

 

And athletics now give a nice fast "oh oh" heal.

 

I really like it and think its spot on.

 

As i said if you think the game is well balanced,then this change is in no way bad for that balance.

Edited February 1, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll

[Tennisgolfboll]

@Tennisgolfball, I think we must be playing different games.

Once I had un-learnt my Infinity Engine habits I found combat in PoE straightforward but satisfying: it doesn't require any form of twitch skills or devolve to an elemental game of rock-paper-scissors but bad tactics will hurt your party every time.

 

I feel the survival buffs are too generous and probably should be halved, I also don't understand the in-game rational for only being able to choose 1 benefit out of 6. If I were a character I'd spend an extra 4/8 hours in camp to prepare the anti-venom, buff up the armour and sharpen the weapons (etc.) to ensure I got as many factors in my favour as possible, that's how real world soldiers and sportsmen operate.

 

Confusion comes from the unclear interaction of the camping bonus and the persistent inn bonuses

In my experience it's much easier to order separate meals at an inn/hotel than to cook up more than one type of food whilst camping

I greatly agree about POE really finding that balance. It isnt rock, paper but as you say much more strategic.

 

You cant prepare for all situations however. You cant coat your arrows with garlic and have them made of silver and put them on fire. Choice is good!

Edited February 1, 2016 by Tennisgolfboll

[limaxophobiacq]

I still think you'll have a significantly easier time soloing PotD with a character with Lore 10 Survival 0 than one with Lore 0 Survival 10 though.

 

Overall this change is obviously making the game easier but if you consider balance between skills survival still isn't the strongest one, but everyone is going to want at least 7 points in it.

Edited February 1, 2016 by limaxophobiacq

[Tennisgolfboll]

I still think you have a significantly easier time soloing PotD with a character with Lore 10 Survival 0 than one with Lore 0 Survival 10 though.

 

Overall this change is obviously making the game easier but if you consider balance between skills survival still isn't the strongest one, but everyone is going to want at least 7 points in it.

Well said.

 

Couldn't agree more

[Heijoushin]

I haven't played the new patch yet but I sort of agree with OP.

 

Yes, survival needed to do something useful. But now we can get bonuses from food, inns, the stronghold and resting. Seems like a bit much. Which isn't a big deal in itself but...

 

Remember the reason why spell casting is disabled outside of combat? Apparently so that the game wouldn't turn into a buff fest before combat. But now its starting to turn into a bonus fest.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Heijoushin

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Personally I think the survival bonuses are about twice as strong as they should be. It's a good idea but +2 DR, / +10 accuracy, etc., is just too much.

[Tanred]

I'd change the order of the bonuses, starting from the generally less useful. E.g.:

1. Increased Consumable Duration
2. Received Healing Multiplier
3. Bonus Movement
4. Bonus Damage vs. Flanked Enemies
5. Damage Reduction
6. Accuracy Bonus vs. Creature Type

Edited February 2, 2016 by Tanred

[Tennisgolfboll]

 

I'd change the order of the bonuses, starting from the generally less useful. E.g.:

• Increased Consumable Duration
• Received Healing Multiplier
• Bonus Movement
• Bonus Damage vs. Flanked Enemies
• Damage Reduction
• Accuracy Bonus vs. Creature Type

I dont think a nerf is needed at all.

 

But this is the least bad idea for a nerf by far.

[Boeroer]

It all depends how you play. If you like to sip a potion all the time then "Increased Consumable Duration" will be far more useful for you than a "Received Healing Multiplier".

 

Whatever - I always used to give my non-mechanics chars Lore 10/Survival 10 (or 10/9 or 8/10 or whatever). Now, with Second Wind and the camping bonuses, I'm trying to spread the points more - which it a good thing. Sometimes Lore 4 or 6 is enough for a certain scroll that I'd like to use more often and so on.  

Edited February 3, 2016 by Boeroer

[Harlath]

I agree that some of the bonuses are too large, particularly damage reduction. Reducing them/reordering them seems to be a good solution?

[HawkSoft]

A quick comment on the end game whilst I have it fresh in my memory.

 

New players may well feel frustrated if they pick the wrong accuracy bonus (effectively a 50/50 chance) for the final boss fight.

Once you have finished the game you will always get it right (or it playing to a script/walkthrough).

 

 

 

I still feel that Survival on its own should not make you experts in slaying all kinds of monsters, it may enable the party to FIND the stuff needed to prepare but not WHAT they need to prepare.

 

I would much prefer if this were a bonus unlocked by any member of the party having the appropriate *bane* talent. It also gives more reason to pick those talents.

[AndreaColombo]

If new players want to get the right bonus for the final fight from their first play through, they need to google it. I don't think it's on Obs to fix that

[WorstUsernameEver]

You pretty much only encounter Vessels in Sun in Shadow and you're hunting Thaos, and by then it should be clear that he's Kith. I.. really don't see the problem.

[Merina]

You encounter vessels in many other places.

 

But the new resting bonuses really make the game easier ... you can create parties for hack-and-slay runs, and these bonuses make that easier.

 

Everyone who thinks the game is too difficult, should rethink about the rules and adapt to them ... rather than trying to apply strategies and character skilling concepts known from Baldur's Gate.

[WorstUsernameEver]

You encounter vessels in many other places.

Bad wording on my part. What I meant was that Vessels are the primary enemy type in Sun in Shadow, so you do get into the final fight with the expectation that you might fight vessels alongside Thaos.

 

EDIT: That said, I forgot that Spirits are a separate category and just as much of a presence in Sun in Shadow, so you might also want prepare for them and end up disappointed when it turns out it's just Thaos and two huge Vessel statues. That's probably a fair complaint, although I think it's super-minor.

Edited February 5, 2016 by WorstUsernameEver

[HawkSoft]

Bad wording on my part. What I meant was that Vessels are the primary enemy type in Sun in Shadow, so you do get into the final fight with the expectation that you might fight vessels alongside Thaos.

EDIT: That said, I forgot that Spirits are a separate category and just as much of a presence in Sun in Shadow, so you might also want prepare for them and end up disappointed when it turns out it's just Thaos and two huge Vessel statues. That's probably a fair complaint, although I think it's super-minor.

You meet spirits and vessels in Sun in Shadow, I found the spirits more annoying to fight, those drakes and shades appearing amongst the party are a PITA.

 

 

I do not think it is reasonable for veteran players to dismiss this issue or say that everyone who plays the game FOR THE FIRST TIME has to consult a walkthrough, this is a story focussed cRPG, not a hack and slash aRPG. I am worried about the first impression the game's climatic battle is likely to make on new players when one of the *cool new 3.0* features is turned into a coin-flip

 

To be clear, my concern here is not with the experienced players on this forum and elsewhere, they don't need my help, but on the game making the best possible impression on new players. A simple comment by one of the companions to the effect that statues near the machine look like scaled up animats or they think the party has dealt with all the shades should be sufficient of a clue. I think sharp players should be given a better than 80% chance of getting it right…

[AndreaColombo]

^ that would be a poor in-character attempt at a very out-of-character, meta-gamey head's up. The bonuses from resting aren't necessary to win the fight; in fact, cheesing the final fight is easy enough without them. If a player makes a fuss for this, I envy their free time (and this comes from a dude with a lot of free time in his hands.)