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# Attack speed 2.0

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### #41 AndreaColombo Posted 19 January 2016 - 10:03 AM

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I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

The math in your example would be as follows:

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

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### #42 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted 19 January 2016 - 12:41 PM

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I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

The math in your example would be as follows:

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

Ok, I think I'm starting to understand this.

Basically, when dual weilding one-handed normal-speed weapons, you need "200%" bonus speed in order to have 0 recovery, right? Because this is all percents, and speed percentages above 100 are what reduce recovery?

So, if wearing normal plate, that bumps your recovery phase up to 150%. SO you then need +150% speed to eliminate that.

So, if you're also Frenzied (-1.33%) and using two-weapon fighting skill, that gives you a (roughly) fifty percent bonus to recovery, cancelling out the Plate penalty but not the base penalty.

If you're frenzied and using at least one speed-enhanced weapon and using two-weapon fighting, but no durgan, that's going to take you down to roughly 70% of base recovery [ (1.33 * 1.2 + .2 == 1.796), then 2.5-1.796);

or if you're frenzied, using two-weapon fighting and a speed enhanced weapon, AND naked, i.e., an actual barbarian, you're down to 2 - 1.796 = .204 recovery?

If you durganize your armor and both weapons, then, that's the formula you posted, leaving you with 24% recovery time remaining.

And if you then wear the gauntlets of swift action, that zeroes you out.

So translating this all back into frames, as per the old formula (is this still correct? http://forums.obsidi...very/?p=1603618 )?

You'd get, presuming normal speed weapons:

At 70% of base recovery, a 25 frame recovery animation with each weapon

at 24%, an 8 or 9 frame animation.

If you then have a (for example) 17 Dex, you'll take that down further, by 21%, to around 6.8 frames?

Or, if you just stay naked, a  20.4% (naked, frenzied, speed weapon), a 6.12 frame animation.

Meanwhile, of course Dexterity is also reducing your actual attack animation (which no other speed boosts can do?)(does this game round frames up or down? Are there "break points"?)

Similarly, if you're using Fast weapons, with shorter animations, then

70% speed (frenzy, two-weapon, magical speed weapon) == 16 frame recovery,

24% speed (frenzy, two-weapon, magical speed weapon, full durgan) == 5.76 frame recovery? (at which point the Gloves would be redundant because you're at the four frame limit already?)

Sorry if I'm breaking this down into baby language, I'm just coming back to this game after a long hiatus and having to re-learn everything.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 19 January 2016 - 12:56 PM.

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### #43 AndreaColombo Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:08 PM

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The post you linked is still accurate, give or take a few frames (IME, average/slow weapons have 30-frame attack, 50-frame recovery rather than 30/54; not sure about fast weapons and dual-wielding as I've never done much frame counting for those.)

When your character is naked and has 10 DEX, you'll attack with those timings which are your 100%. You need to stack -100% recovery to bring it down to 0 from there. If you add penalties to the mix, you'll need to stack bonuses up to 100% + whatever penalty you have. So yes, if you're wearing plate you'll need -150% to go down to 0, and so on and so forth.

Keep in mind that even with your recovery down to 0, there will always be a 4-frame delay in between attacks. This can't be eliminated and was likely introduced by the devs to prevent animations from getting messy when stacking bonuses like we're doing here.

Some math from page 1 of this thread.

Edited by AndreaColombo, 19 January 2016 - 02:17 PM.

### #44 Furism Posted 20 January 2016 - 02:47 AM

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Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

What is Fire Rate?

### #45 Boeroer Posted 20 January 2016 - 04:13 AM

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Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

Thanks a lot guys!

Edited by Boeroer, 20 January 2016 - 05:24 AM.

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### #46 Kaylon Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:01 AM

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Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

Tanks a lot guys!

A ranger with Lenas Er is much more effective because Twinned Arrows and Stunning Shots which lower defenses even further. The problem is most targets will be dead even before they will reach their lowest defenses...

Edited by Kaylon, 20 January 2016 - 05:01 AM.

### #47 Kaylon Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:18 AM

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Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

What is Fire Rate?

Attack speed affects the recovery of all attacks. Melee speed affects only the recovery of melee attacks (including spells benefiting from Vulnerable Attack like Jolting Touch). Ranged speed affects only the recovery of ranged attacks (including ranged spells benefiting from Penetrating Shot like Minoletta's Missiles). Fire rate affects only the recovery of ranged weapons (bows, firearms, implements). The only thing that affects the attack animation is the dex.

### #48 Boeroer Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:23 AM

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I'm pretty sure he's not more effective. Like... a 120% sure.

He's doing great things against one single target, no doubt about that. I also like my Twinned Arrows ranger. But he's not doing this in an AoE like the barb. Driving Flight doesn't work with on-hit-effects (except the x%-trigger things like Stormcaller and others of WM have). Plus: Lenas Er, Stunning Shots and Twinned Arrows come really late AND your pet has to be alive and kicking to trigger stunning shots. I prefer Stormcaller since you can get (and unlock it to exceptional) way earlier.

This guy debuffs whole mobs - not just one single target. Not only with the bebuffs but also with interrupts as a bonus. If you combine very high INT with an overseeing item and the enemies are not too big (like ogres) you easily can reach 5-6 foes at once. With Barbaric Blow and Heart of Fury (if you need a debuff NOW) even the Vile Loner's Lance is enough - and that thing you can have very early if you want.

### #49 Kaylon Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:28 AM

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If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king

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### #50 DreamWayfarer Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:37 AM

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If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king

Well, using a barbarian for single targets is kinda missing the whole point of the class, isn't it?

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 20 January 2016 - 05:37 AM.

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### #51 Boeroer Posted 20 January 2016 - 05:37 AM

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If you want to debuff multiple targets then yes, but against single targets the ranger is king

I agree. Stunning Shots alone is awesome.

### #52 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:50 AM

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Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

Thanks a lot guys!

Hah, that's one of the builds I was thinking of testing when I started asking these questions The real question I think is if a version of this build can work at level 6 rather than having to wait till you get to twin elms for Strike Hard. My thought was Shatterstar for its interrupt bonus, paired with Vile Loner's Lance, but maybe it'd be better to pair vile loner's with march steel for the speed bonus and see what happens.

What stat distribution did you use? Something like 10/10/15/15/19/8?

### #53 DreamWayfarer Posted 20 January 2016 - 06:57 AM

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Thanks to this thread I could invent this: barb disabler

Thanks a lot guys!

Hah, that's one of the builds I was thinking of testing when I started asking these questions The real question I think is if a version of this build can work at level 6 rather than having to wait till you get to twin elms for Strike Hard.
I think that if you don't care too much about heavy hits, you could stack as much attack speed and accuracy as possible, going as far as using only one weapon with an empty offhand, and just try to crit as often as possible with the Vile Loner's Lance.

I think I'll try it out right now, I already have a mid-level Mosquito-wielding barbarian I could respec.

A couple of initial debuffs may be necessary to begin criting, but after it gets going it wouldn't stop anymore.

EDIT: tested it with a level 6 barb:

I was able to make Pallegina's deflection go from 79 to 64 and stay there. My accuracy against her was 87 (base + 8 from PER + 13 from spear enchanted with accurate2 + 5 from kith-slaying + 12 from one handed + 6 from weapon focus + 4 from Gallant's focus).

I am unsure if critical hits increse the duration of disorienting, but I was criting consistently and I think even on PoTD it would be possible to crit often if you debuffed the enemies first.

The damage was not exactly great, but I supose the constant interrupting and -15 to all defenses in a large area might make your barbarian a decent support character, and you are still able to kill groups of adds, even if not as fast as a damage-focused barbarian.

My stats before gear and buffs:

8 MIG
8 CON
19 DEX
16 PER
16 INT
11 RES

If you think xaurip skirmishers must make me hate myself, you are right, but I find weaknesses to be fun when they force you to change tatics or plan before fighting.

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 21 January 2016 - 05:37 AM.

### #54 Furism Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:31 AM

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Just to make sure I understand this right, could somebody please confirm the terminology?

What is the difference between "melee speed" and "attack speed" ? Are they the same, except attack speed targets both melee and ranged attack speed?

What does Attack Speed include exactly? Is it only recovery frames or animation + recovery frames?

What is Fire Rate?

Attack speed affects the recovery of all attacks. Melee speed affects only the recovery of melee attacks (including spells benefiting from Vulnerable Attack like Jolting Touch). Ranged speed affects only the recovery of ranged attacks (including ranged spells benefiting from Penetrating Shot like Minoletta's Missiles). Fire rate affects only the recovery of ranged weapons (bows, firearms, implements). The only thing that affects the attack animation is the dex.

Right, good. Little subtlety that ranged attack include both ranged weapons and spells recovery, while fire rate only weapons recovery.

Thanks!

### #55 Boeroer Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:46 AM

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I updated the posting. You can do it just as good with Vile Loner's Lance and a small shield. You don't need an empty hand. A durgan refined shield gives you 15% extra speed and more deflection - that's worth it.

A good thing is to debuff with a long lasting spell. Aspirant's Mark works really well. When it becomes 1/encounter it will be perfect for this build. At the moment it's 2/rest which isn't superbad. If you start with this the rest of the debuffing will be quicker.

### #56 DreamWayfarer Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:55 AM

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I updated the posting. You can do it just as good with Vile Loner's Lance and a small shield. You don't need an empty hand. A durgan refined shield gives you 15% extra speed and more deflection - that's worth it.

I did it without a shield because my barb was level 6. I don't know about you more experienced people, but the ogres you fight when you enter Stalwart convinced me to wait some more before trying the rest of the expansion.

Plus, 12 extra accuracy is nice for carnage . And the extra deflection is not that useful if the shield is not very upgraded, since my barb is not very tanky anyway, and I can't upgrade all my gear yet.

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 20 January 2016 - 09:58 AM.

### #57 Boeroer Posted 20 January 2016 - 10:11 AM

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That's right.

Level 6 is a bit early for Stalwart.

### #58 Furism Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:03 AM

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Is there a reliable list somewhere with the correct frame count for each type of attack speed? I'd like to know exactly how many frames/seconds each category (Fast, Average, Slow, etc..) is exactly.

### #59 Dr. Hieronymous Alloy Posted 21 January 2016 - 05:53 AM

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Is there a reliable list somewhere with the correct frame count for each type of attack speed? I'd like to know exactly how many frames/seconds each category (Fast, Average, Slow, etc..) is exactly.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 21 January 2016 - 05:53 AM.

### #60 Mercbeast Posted 21 January 2016 - 12:38 PM

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I'm sorry to rain on your proverbial parade, but DEX applies multiplicatively after everything else, which means you can't really count on it if your objective is to achieve 0 recovery. Still plenty useful for speeding up everything else and/or bring your recovery down to very low numbers, but since you said attribute points are premium for what you have in mind, I suppose we're not going down that route.

The math in your example would be as follows:

155% recovery (100% + 35% durgan-refined plate + 20% vulnerable attack)

-131% recovery penalty  (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

which would give you 24% recovery time before dexterity (in the case of dual-wielding, we're looking at about 6 frames of recovery + the 4-frame delay.)

If you also wear the Gauntlets of Swift Action:

-162% (1.33 frenzy x 1.15 durgan x 1.2 speed x 1.15 durgan x1.15 gauntlets + 1.2 two weapon fighting)

then you'd have 0 recovery before dexterity

Does this mean if your goal is to reach 0 recovery, 10 dex will work fine? In other words, does this mean that putting points into dex are basically wasted points if this is your goal?

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