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Attack speed 2.0


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#21
Boeroer

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Thanks for the testing - it's highly appreciated. Same goes for Kaylon's research.


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#22
Kaylon

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Ok, I did a few tests and durgan reinforced shields give indeed another 15% attack speed which stacks additively. In other words you can reach 158% bonus recovery while using a shield (that explains my observation from my previous post).

 

I discovered also a nice bug involving Cautious Attack - the speed penalty will be suppressed when using any attack speed buff (meaning you get no speed reduction at all). A ranger with Swift Aim could use for example Cautious Attack without any drawback. 


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#23
AndreaColombo

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Kaylon—if it stacks additively, wouldn't it result in 138+15=153% rather than 158%?

 

As for Cautious Attack ... I don't know, do we want to report it? :-


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#24
Kaylon

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Kaylon—if it stacks additively, wouldn't it result in 138+15=153% rather than 158%?

 

As for Cautious Attack ... I don't know, do we want to report it? :-

Yes, it's 153%... As for Cautious Attack I consider it a feature...  :lol:

 

PS. Melee rangers can achieve perma 0% attack recovery with Swift Aim while wearing durgan reinforced leather+shield.


Edited by Kaylon, 16 January 2016 - 02:14 PM.

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#25
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Oh - I have to retrain my Tidefall-Ranger into a Drawn-in-Spring-Ranger now. :)



#26
Kardgar

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After reading this I decided to mess around a bit with this on my Ranger

 

26 dex

Two weapon Style

Swift Aim

Vuln Attack

Cautious Attack

Gauntlets of Swift Action

 

Durgan Refined Plate

Durgan Refined Rime Cutter

Durgan Refined Strike Hard

 

No recovery bar



#27
Kaylon

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After reading this I decided to mess around a bit with this on my Ranger

 

26 dex

Two weapon Style

Swift Aim

Vuln Attack

Cautious Attack

Gauntlets of Swift Action

 

Durgan Refined Plate

Durgan Refined Rime Cutter

Durgan Refined Strike Hard

 

No recovery bar

I did a few tests too and the speeds from each weapons works for both and stacks multiplicatively. However there's a slight difference in frames compared to what I was expecting. A ranger can indeed perma dual wield without recovery while wearing any kind of plate and also use Vulnerable Attack and Cautious Attack (1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15*1.2*1.15+0.2=2.82).



#28
AndreaColombo

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EDIT: never mind.


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 January 2016 - 01:22 AM.


#29
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Yeah, but since you get 182% you can easily place a plate in there - even without durgan reinforcement. Edit: ah, wait.. no - don't know. I'm confused...

 

Edit 2: ok, now I got it: 182% - 50% (plain old plate) - 20% (Vuln. Attack) and you are still at 112% - no recovery bar.

 

But same for the monk Swift Strikes or the barb with Frenzy (or any other class with Outlander's Frenzy that should become 1/encounter).

 

I also did a test with my speedy monk and found out that two speed enchanted weapons + durgan are much faster than two normal weapons + durgan - faster than 20% could explain. But I didn't have the idea that each weapon speed enchantment works for both weapons - which is kind of nuts by the way. That explains a lot.


Edited by Boeroer, 17 January 2016 - 01:30 AM.

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#30
Kardgar

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Yeah, but since you get 182% you can easily place a plate in there - even without durgan reinforcement. Edit: ah, wait.. no - don't know. I'm confused...

 

Edit 2: ok, now I got it: 182% - 50% (plain old plate) - 20% (Vuln. Attack) and you are still at 112% - no recovery bar.

 

But same for the monk Swift Strikes or the barb with Frenzy (or any other class with Outlander's Frenzy that should become 1/encounter).

 

I also did a test with my speedy monk and found out that two speed enchanted weapons + durgan are much faster than two normal weapons + durgan - faster than 20% could explain. But I didn't have the idea that each weapon speed enchantment works for both weapons - which is kind of nuts by the way. That explains a lot.

 

 

Swift Aim lets you stay permanently like this, where as frenzy or some other short duration buff has to be managed. It's the set it and forget it no recovery setup. I don't know that anyone else can achieve this. It's a shame most of the speed enchanted weapons don't have any fun effects on them do make this setup more diverse.



#31
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I just tried and it's also possible to use non speed enchanted weapons - if you use lighter armor. With a durgan reinforced hide armor you can also have no recovery - as the math predicted.

 

I also just used a barb with frenzy and Spelltongue + Drawn in Spring. Not only does Spelltongue steal 15% attack speed (which lets you wear a bit thicker armor) - it also prolongs the duration of frenzy until the end of the encounter. This works especially well with a barb because of carnage-stealing.

 

A monk's AI can be set so that it automatically uses 1 wound to fire up swift strikes - so most of the time it's on.

 

The rest of the classes have to manage their speed buffs, that's true. But that's a tiny drawback compared to the DPS you get out of it when you recovery hits 0.

 

Edit: Forgot Sanguine Plate: that also kind of works automatically if you build your char around it. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 17 January 2016 - 07:52 AM.

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#32
AndreaColombo

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Edit: Forgot Sanguine Plate: that also kind of works automatically if you build your char around it. ;)

 

Alas, if only there was a build that did it...! :p


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#33
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I know, I know! ;)
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#34
Andvare

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You don't need armored grace, just durgan reinforced plate - which has 35% recovery penalty - that's enough to see if you have some recovery or not... Of course negative recovery doesn't make you attack faster but it allows you to use abilities or armors that otherwise would slow you down...

 

Trying to reconcile your math with my earlier test (from the link above):

 

Plate Armor (+50%)

Vulnerable Attack (+20%)

Armored Grace (-15% penalty*)

Durgan Steel armor (-15% penalty)

 

*this was before 2.03.

 

These should be additive, which means (50+20-15-15)=40% recovery penalty.

 

Then we have:

 

Durgan Steel weapon (+15% attack speed)

Speed weapon (+20% attack speed)

Deleterious Alacrity of Motion (+50% attack speed)

 

These should be multiplicative, which means 1.15x1.20x1.5=2.07 or 107% recovery reduction.

 

So, 140% - 107% = 33% recovery before DEX.

 

50 * 33% = 16.5 frames.

 

25 DEX (+45% action speed; applies to both attack and recovery)

 

Then we apply dexterity: (16.5 / 1.45) = 11.37

 

Et voilà: 11-frame recovery + 4-frame delay (which apparently can't be eliminated and doesn't factor in any calculation.)

 

 

This is a major breakthrough—Kaylon, you are a genius!

 

Now my LoP is not only the ultimate single-target melee DPS machine, but even has the flexibility to forgo Armored Grace and take a different ability (which is great, seeing as TWM pt. II is going to add new mid-level abilities for all classes.) I'm going to enjoy my next play through quite a lot, bwahahah! :devil:

 

 

Your LoP? 


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#35
AndreaColombo

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Your LoP? 

 

My Lady of Pain Fighter build.

 

If you pick the Blade of the Endless Paths variant and swap the Gauntlets of Accuracy for the Gauntlets of Swift Action, you can forgo Armored Grace and still attack with no recovery (you'll still need to sip a potion of Deleterious Alacrity of Motion for it, but I sorta take it for granted as that's my standard opening move when I play the LoP and I mentioned it in the build thread.) When TWM pt. II comes out, the enchantment limit will be increased and you'll likely be able to stack a lash on the estoc to boot for extra fun (hint: The freezing lash looks very good on it.) I will update the build with these and other details when the expansion's released.


Edited by AndreaColombo, 17 January 2016 - 11:03 AM.


#36
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Question then -- 

 

Would it be possible to take a barbarian wearing Sanguine Plate to 0% recovery, then? Say if you were dual-wielding the "Strike Hard" warhammer (which has a speed bonus) and something else? If so, what would be the minimum investment to get there?  Am I correct in thinking that durgan on the sanguine plate, the Strike Hard's speed enchant, and Frenzy speed bonus would be enough by themselves to get you to 0 recovery, or am I doing that math wrong?  


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 19 January 2016 - 07:16 AM.


#37
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Let's see...

 

(for a barb you don't need Saguine Plate. ;) With Sanguine Plate anybody can be a barb though)

 

The things you listed are enough if you also have a DEX bonus:

 

1.33% (Frenzy) * 1.2 (Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined 2. War Hammer)  =  2,11.  Add Two Weapon Style: 2,31

 

Now you could put on a durgan reinforced plate (-0,35) and have Vulnerable Attack (-0,2): 1,76

 

If you have a DEX score that gives you +20%: 2,11 - no recovery.

 

Did I do it right?

 

 

 

Edit: forgot something that turned the whole statement upside down. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 19 January 2016 - 07:57 AM.

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#38
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Let's see...

 

(for a barb you don't need Saguine Plate. ;) With Sanguine Plate anybody can be a barb though)

 

The things you listed are enough if you also have a DEX bonus:

 

1.33% (Frenzy) * 1.2 (Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined Strike Hard) * 1.15 (Durgan Refined 2. War Hammer)  =  2,11.  Add Two Weapon Style: 2,31

 

Now you could put on a durgan reinforced plate (-0,35) and have Vulnerable Attack (-0,2): 1,76

 

If you have a DEX score that gives you +20%: 2,11 - no recovery.

 

Did I do it right?

 

 

 

Edit: forgot something that turned the whole statement upside down. ;)

 

 

 

WOuldn't you just need a Dex score of 15, for +15% attack speed? 1.76 * 1.15 = 2.024 ? or am I doing this wrong?  Trying to figure out the *minimal* necessary investment here (I want to experiment with various interrupting and stunning carnage builds, so stat points are at a premium). 


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 19 January 2016 - 08:11 AM.


#39
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Yes, that would be sufficient. But you only will get all that *1.15 durgan stuff and strike hard quite late - so maybe you want to have more DEX so you will be a bit faster as long as your recovery didn't hit +100%.

 

One handed weapons with speed that come quite early are the Sword of Daenysis (Vincent Dwellier in the Salty Mast), March Steel Dagger (quest "Something Secret" with Derrin in Copperlane), Unforgiven flail (quest "Cinders of Faith" - where you can also get Tidefall), Spelltongue (kind of speed enchanted, chest in the map Durgan's Battery - not inside the Battery itself, left side of the map near a destroyed cart ). All the others come to late to build a char around them. But that's just my opinion. 



#40
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

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Yes, that would be sufficient. But you only will get all that *1.15 durgan stuff and strike hard quite late - so maybe you want to have more DEX so you will be a bit faster as long as your recovery didn't hit +100%.

 

One handed weapons with speed that come quite early are the Sword of Daenysis (Vincent Dwellier in the Salty Mast), March Steel Dagger (quest "Something Secret" with Derrin in Copperlane), Unforgiven flail (quest "Cinders of Faith" - where you can also get Tidefall), Spelltongue (kind of speed enchanted, chest in the map Durgan's Battery - not inside the Battery itself, left side of the map near a destroyed cart ). All the others come to late to build a char around them. But that's just my opinion. 

 

Yeah, all the really good barbarian builds seem very item dependent >_<. I was thinking this for a relatively late-game respec build on an adventurer. I *might* try pairing Shatterstar with a March Steel and see if that works as an intermediate version of the build (since Shatterstar apparently has an Interrupt bonus). Or maybe I'll just rush Twin Elms.


Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy, 19 January 2016 - 09:35 AM.





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