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I'm also aware that some people really dislike games with classes and would prefer a classless frankenstein, but I believe even they would be reasonable enough to dismiss a statement proclaiming that a distinct (martial) accuracy and defenses starting point would be like a straitjacket.

Personally I love RPG's with classless systems that let me build whatever I want.  Like that other game abbreviated PoE....  However in a real time with pause strategy oriented game like Eternity?  No, you need a class system.  Classless systems work best for action oriented games where it is all about gameplay and actual play skill, not planning, exploiting weaknesses, and team synergy.

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@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

 

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?


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@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

 

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?

Removes the strategy element from the game.  You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance.  In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions.  Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.

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@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

 

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?

Removes the strategy element from the game. You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance. In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions. Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.

It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

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It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

Fallout 1-2 also have no where near the depth of combat and character abilities of Eternity.  Same can be said for Wasteland.

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It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

Fallout 1-2 also have no where near the depth of combat and character abilities of Eternity. Same can be said for Wasteland.

The recently released Underrail does, though.

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Removes the strategy element from the game.  You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance.  In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions.  Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.

Can you name an example of a ridiculously overpowered cross-class ability combination? Again, always assuming that they have the same prerequisites as now, i.e. no level 4 wizard spells before you have level 3, 2, and 1 wizard spells, and you have minimum level requirements for each of them.

 

I... can't. The best I can think of right now is stacking an extra 20% damage by combining the cipher's Biting Whip with other damage-boosting abilities, but since presumably you'd need <<Cipher 1 powers>> to be eligible to take that in the first place, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable.

 

That's the thing with the Pillars character system -- it's really remarkably robust and difficult to exploit in genuinely game-breaking ways. There just isn't a kensai-mage or ranger-cleric in there. You can minmax, but you always feel the min in some way in addition to the max, and when attempting that you already have to think very hard about which talents and abilities to pick. Having more to choose from wouldn't really change that.

 

Summa summarum, I just don't see how a classless system would break Pillars.

Edited by PrimeJunta

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

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Something about classes:

In MOBA games (DOTA or LoL) there is pleanty of champions, and all of them are a bit different, but if we look at them more meta, they consist of 20 abilities with different numbers, animation and fancy name. So generally classes are just permutacion of same action "deal more dmg" "take less dmg" or "stop enemy from doing dmg". Something to consider when thinking about classes being so different.

And there is nothing wrong in that. Fluff is important part of RPG.

 

Classless systems:

In some games it works. IMHO best variant is "skill specialization" like in Divinity Original Sin or Harebrained Shadowrun. PC have some freedom, but specializing in one sill brings stronger stuff. Also some skill trees have better synergy due to using same atribute, or same weapon type (melee/ranged) or from simple fact that character can do just one thing at any given moment.

 

The problem with classless system is that it leaves less space for class mechanic. So no cipher focus, monkish wounds or chanter chants.

 

Advantage of classes

Classes are a bit easier to balance since there is less issues what if we combine any two talents. So some of them could be stronger since they are class special.

It may also be easier for new players - however it is open to discussion since PoE already have some universal talents (weapon style/focus and similar).

 

For PoE

The big advantage of classes in PoE is that they are already in. And polishing them and expanding is less work than dismantle everything and start from ground.

 

Note: It is something to consider if game have optional tickbox "autolevel companions". Could help new players, but in the same time could result in "autolevel builds are horrible!"

Edited by evilcat
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Nobody says focus, wounds, and chants have to be tied to a class. You could just allow any character to pick a level 1 chant, a level 1 cipher power, or a level 1 monk feat, and they'd get focus or wounds on the side. Can't see how that would break anything.

 

From where I'm at, actually, the only advantage of classes is nostalgia -- they're familiar and comforting and very much part of the experience in D&D-like games. But from a purely design POV, they're not much good. I don't even believe they make balancing any easier.


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Well there are probably some better combos assuming total freedom of talents/abilities, but things to start with:

- Monk wounds and swift strikes on any front fighter

- Every character with some chants, and summoning phantom every 12 sec, or any character with little dragons. Generally with chants/invocation you can pick 2+1 and be done with class.

- Any melee attacker and rage mechanic. Cipher focus. There should be a lot of focus, and sometimes we can nova something heavy.

- Every caster running Relentless storm

- Caster with very high Perception, small Might and just collection of all CC/debuffs.

- Paladin tank with Priest tier 1. spells in 4/encounter (blessing, arour, healing good trade)

- Any class with any caster 4/encouter spell level.

- Rogue with Carnage

- Recless Attack + Deathblows + Armour Grace  on character with high survivalability.

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Well there are probably some better combos assuming total freedom of talents/abilities, but things to start with:

- Monk wounds and swift strikes on any front fighter

Except that wounds wear down your health, so you'll also want higher endurance and more health. If wizard is the base (low/x4), you'd need to spend two talents to get to monk/barbarian level (very high/6). And it's not suitable for an armoured, high-Deflection fighter because they won't incur the wounds. And if you pick that talent, there's some other talent you're not picking.

 

- Every character with some chants, and summoning phantom every 12 sec, or any character with little dragons. Generally with chants/invocation you can pick 2+1 and be done with class.

Okay, then let's make it a requirement to take two chants per Invocation. So to get the phantom you'd need to spend three talents/abilities. Pretty significant IMO.

 

- Any melee attacker and rage mechanic.

Except melee attackers with low Endurance and Deflection: they'd go down like ninepins when they Rage.

 

Cipher focus. There should be a lot of focus, and sometimes we can nova something heavy.

Except to use Focus, you need abilities that burn it. You could spend one talent on one first-level cipher ability, but how unbalancing would that be? We could make it so that in addition to the plain level requirement, you'd need at least two powers of the previous level to be allowed a new one. So to get a level 2 cipher power, you'd need to spend 3 abilities.

 

- Every caster running Relentless storm

Returning Storm is a level 3 druid spell. To get there, you'd have to be minimum level 5, and have spent enough talents to be allowed level 3 druid spells.

 

- Caster with very high Perception, small Might and just collection of all CC/debuffs.

As above. You wouldn't be able to take any abilities at any level; they would still have prerequisites. To get higher-level spells of a particular type, you would have to spend most of your ability points building up to them.

 

- Paladin tank with Priest tier 1. spells in 4/encounter (blessing, arour, healing good trade)

Not possible. To get L1 spells per encounter, you would have to buy enough talents to get priest spells from level 1 through 5. That wouldn't look much like a paladin anymore.

 

- Any class with any caster 4/encouter spell level.

Again, see above: you seem to be assuming that I'm proposing that any character could take any ability at any level, with no prerequisites. I explicitly said that I want to keep the prerequisites as they are: no level 5 spells before level 4 spells etc. Same applies to those per-encounter spells: level 5 spellcasting ability would be a requirement for that ability.

 

- Rogue with Carnage

Rogue talents don't apply to Carnage, only the primary attack. Problem solved.

 

- Recless Attack + Deathblows + Armour Grace  on character with high survivalability.

Armoured Grace would be nice, but all that would give is a 20% faster attack speed when wearing heavy armour. Not unbalancing IMO.


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Usual link:

 

 

One of her new (Patch 3.0) talents, Vielo Vidório, is based on Flames of Devotion and is widely liked by QA. It gives nearby allies an attack speed boost whenever FoD is used.

 

Her other talent is Wrath of the Five Suns. It shoots out five Burn damage projectiles when she uses Sworn Enemy.

 

 

These are referred to Pallegina.

 

 

Additionally, from Twitter:

 

C6wOrxX.jpg
EtJeZhV.jpg

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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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Sweet! Wait... what does this "|Accuracy" thing mean?

 

There's a line break. It's "Accuracy vs. Deflection"—though honestly I'm not sure why they felt it would be necessary to specify that you attack using Accuracy, since you can't possibly use anything else in this game. For the sake of being unambiguous and thorough, I suppose?


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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I'm also aware that some people really dislike games with classes and would prefer a classless frankenstein, but I believe even they would be reasonable enough to dismiss a statement proclaiming that a distinct (martial) accuracy and defenses starting point would be like a straitjacket.

Personally I love RPG's with classless systems that let me build whatever I want.  Like that other game abbreviated PoE....  However in a real time with pause strategy oriented game like Eternity?  No, you need a class system.  Classless systems work best for action oriented games where it is all about gameplay and actual play skill, not planning, exploiting weaknesses, and team synergy.

 

 

Class systems are superior, but I can tolerate classlessness in post-apocalyptic/sci-fi settings and/or solo RPGs, both of which I rarely play. When there's magic involved (fantasy) and the game is party based, my tolerance for classless systems evaporates almost completely. Every class is a world of its own and can experiment with its own builds. It's never a game of clones. From a lore perspective I like that, for instance, not everyone is capable of casting spells. You can recruit people that have abilities that your character can never ever have and that makes things way more interesting. 

 

Another thing I'm going to mention is uniformity; it's important to sometimes relax the hand (maybe it was even too relaxed with damage immunities :w00t: ) and restrain uniformity, exceptions are cool, yes? Example: combat styles in PoE. Why is the universal starting point being equally superest at every combat style (slightly improved by a single lonely talent and that's it)? I give you my word that it would be just fine and a beautiful thing if people without the dual-wielding talent got a -10 accuracy penalty when wardancing with two weapons, same with ranged weapons +/- ranged talents.  Even systems need an artistic touch. 

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Usual link:

 

 

One of her new (Patch 3.0) talents, Vielo Vidório, is based on Flames of Devotion and is widely liked by QA. It gives nearby allies an attack speed boost whenever FoD is used.

Her other talent is Wrath of the Five Suns. It shoots out five Burn damage projectiles when she uses Sworn Enemy.

These are referred to Pallegina.

That indeed looks nice. Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason? Edited by DreamWayfarer

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Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason?

 

Positively. Get out of here, weirdo!

 

 

 

 

 

 

:biggrin:


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason?

Positively. Get out of here, weirdo!

:biggrin:

I guess it was because of when she gave a certain speech

 

Rousing the vailian diplomats to fight the Leaden Key agents holding them hostage

 

Edited by DreamWayfarer

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So, there was a video on twitch? 

 

At the end of it, they said next week Josh will be streaming some TWM pt. II (not necessarily on Friday) :)


"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke

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So, there was a video on twitch? 

 

At the end of it, they said next week Josh will be streaming some TWM pt. II (not necessarily on Friday) :)

 

 

Ah damn ... and there goes all my excitement!

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Well, they did promise us something better than a gameplay trailer after all, and that's the improved version of one!

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Well, they did promise us something better than a gameplay trailer after all, and that's the improved version of one!

yeah, and Dowling said the great JE may deign to answer a question or two. I can't think of anything worth bothering them, but I might have some upon seeing the gameplay. The Obsidian crowd is pretty nice and puts up with my meaningless comments, so I would suggest dropping in to take a gander. I'm really looking forward to seeing the White March 2. First day buy for me!

bother?

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