Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

3.00 patch teased by Josh on SA


  • Please log in to reply
471 replies to this topic

#301
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I'm also aware that some people really dislike games with classes and would prefer a classless frankenstein, but I believe even they would be reasonable enough to dismiss a statement proclaiming that a distinct (martial) accuracy and defenses starting point would be like a straitjacket.

Personally I love RPG's with classless systems that let me build whatever I want.  Like that other game abbreviated PoE....  However in a real time with pause strategy oriented game like Eternity?  No, you need a class system.  Classless systems work best for action oriented games where it is all about gameplay and actual play skill, not planning, exploiting weaknesses, and team synergy.


  • Torm51 likes this

#302
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

 

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?



#303
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

 

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?

Removes the strategy element from the game.  You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance.  In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions.  Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.


  • gogocactus likes this

#304
Ganrich

Ganrich

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1463 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Gold Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!


@Karkarov care to elaborate on that? 'Cuz I don't see the connection. Imagine that someone modded Pillars so that all talents became available to everyone. Treat spell levels as talents.

Why would that not be compatible with the gameplay style?

Removes the strategy element from the game. You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance. In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions. Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.

It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

#305
Karkarov

Karkarov

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3116 posts
  • Steam:Karkarov
  • PSN Portable ID:Karkarov
  • Xbox Gamertag:Karkarov
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Watcher
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

Fallout 1-2 also have no where near the depth of combat and character abilities of Eternity.  Same can be said for Wasteland.



#306
Ganrich

Ganrich

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1463 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Gold Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!


It works in Fallout, though. I think a classless system is more interesting when turn based, but I chalk this up to taster's choice. I dunno how it would feel in a RTwP game.

Fallout 1-2 also have no where near the depth of combat and character abilities of Eternity. Same can be said for Wasteland.

The recently released Underrail does, though.

#307
the_dog_days

the_dog_days

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1147 posts
  • Location:Over Yonder
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
I like class systems in party RPGs, but flexible or nonexistent classes in single person dungeon crawler like Elder Scrolls.
  • HawkSoft, Torm51 and Mocker22 like this

#308
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Removes the strategy element from the game.  You thought min maxing was bad before now everyone just makes 6 people picks all the best skills of all the classes and has a 6 man mary sue death squad that can steam roll the game and breaks all balance.  In an action oriented game you tend to only have yourself, or AI controlled companions.  Balance in a strategic game is much easier to achieve if there are restrictions on who can do what.


Can you name an example of a ridiculously overpowered cross-class ability combination? Again, always assuming that they have the same prerequisites as now, i.e. no level 4 wizard spells before you have level 3, 2, and 1 wizard spells, and you have minimum level requirements for each of them.

I... can't. The best I can think of right now is stacking an extra 20% damage by combining the cipher's Biting Whip with other damage-boosting abilities, but since presumably you'd need <<Cipher 1 powers>> to be eligible to take that in the first place, it doesn't strike me as unreasonable.

That's the thing with the Pillars character system -- it's really remarkably robust and difficult to exploit in genuinely game-breaking ways. There just isn't a kensai-mage or ranger-cleric in there. You can minmax, but you always feel the min in some way in addition to the max, and when attempting that you already have to think very hard about which talents and abilities to pick. Having more to choose from wouldn't really change that.

Summa summarum, I just don't see how a classless system would break Pillars.

Edited by PrimeJunta, 15 January 2016 - 06:01 AM.


#309
evilcat

evilcat

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 909 posts

Something about classes:

In MOBA games (DOTA or LoL) there is pleanty of champions, and all of them are a bit different, but if we look at them more meta, they consist of 20 abilities with different numbers, animation and fancy name. So generally classes are just permutacion of same action "deal more dmg" "take less dmg" or "stop enemy from doing dmg". Something to consider when thinking about classes being so different.

And there is nothing wrong in that. Fluff is important part of RPG.

 

Classless systems:

In some games it works. IMHO best variant is "skill specialization" like in Divinity Original Sin or Harebrained Shadowrun. PC have some freedom, but specializing in one sill brings stronger stuff. Also some skill trees have better synergy due to using same atribute, or same weapon type (melee/ranged) or from simple fact that character can do just one thing at any given moment.

 

The problem with classless system is that it leaves less space for class mechanic. So no cipher focus, monkish wounds or chanter chants.

 

Advantage of classes

Classes are a bit easier to balance since there is less issues what if we combine any two talents. So some of them could be stronger since they are class special.

It may also be easier for new players - however it is open to discussion since PoE already have some universal talents (weapon style/focus and similar).

 

For PoE

The big advantage of classes in PoE is that they are already in. And polishing them and expanding is less work than dismantle everything and start from ground.

 

Note: It is something to consider if game have optional tickbox "autolevel companions". Could help new players, but in the same time could result in "autolevel builds are horrible!"


Edited by evilcat, 15 January 2016 - 06:33 AM.

  • rjshae and HawkSoft like this

#310
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
Nobody says focus, wounds, and chants have to be tied to a class. You could just allow any character to pick a level 1 chant, a level 1 cipher power, or a level 1 monk feat, and they'd get focus or wounds on the side. Can't see how that would break anything.

From where I'm at, actually, the only advantage of classes is nostalgia -- they're familiar and comforting and very much part of the experience in D&D-like games. But from a purely design POV, they're not much good. I don't even believe they make balancing any easier.

#311
evilcat

evilcat

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 909 posts

Well there are probably some better combos assuming total freedom of talents/abilities, but things to start with:

- Monk wounds and swift strikes on any front fighter

- Every character with some chants, and summoning phantom every 12 sec, or any character with little dragons. Generally with chants/invocation you can pick 2+1 and be done with class.

- Any melee attacker and rage mechanic. Cipher focus. There should be a lot of focus, and sometimes we can nova something heavy.

- Every caster running Relentless storm

- Caster with very high Perception, small Might and just collection of all CC/debuffs.

- Paladin tank with Priest tier 1. spells in 4/encounter (blessing, arour, healing good trade)

- Any class with any caster 4/encouter spell level.

- Rogue with Carnage

- Recless Attack + Deathblows + Armour Grace  on character with high survivalability.



#312
PrimeJunta

PrimeJunta

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4900 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Well there are probably some better combos assuming total freedom of talents/abilities, but things to start with:
- Monk wounds and swift strikes on any front fighter


Except that wounds wear down your health, so you'll also want higher endurance and more health. If wizard is the base (low/x4), you'd need to spend two talents to get to monk/barbarian level (very high/6). And it's not suitable for an armoured, high-Deflection fighter because they won't incur the wounds. And if you pick that talent, there's some other talent you're not picking.

- Every character with some chants, and summoning phantom every 12 sec, or any character with little dragons. Generally with chants/invocation you can pick 2+1 and be done with class.


Okay, then let's make it a requirement to take two chants per Invocation. So to get the phantom you'd need to spend three talents/abilities. Pretty significant IMO.

- Any melee attacker and rage mechanic.


Except melee attackers with low Endurance and Deflection: they'd go down like ninepins when they Rage.

Cipher focus. There should be a lot of focus, and sometimes we can nova something heavy.


Except to use Focus, you need abilities that burn it. You could spend one talent on one first-level cipher ability, but how unbalancing would that be? We could make it so that in addition to the plain level requirement, you'd need at least two powers of the previous level to be allowed a new one. So to get a level 2 cipher power, you'd need to spend 3 abilities.

- Every caster running Relentless storm


Returning Storm is a level 3 druid spell. To get there, you'd have to be minimum level 5, and have spent enough talents to be allowed level 3 druid spells.

- Caster with very high Perception, small Might and just collection of all CC/debuffs.


As above. You wouldn't be able to take any abilities at any level; they would still have prerequisites. To get higher-level spells of a particular type, you would have to spend most of your ability points building up to them.

- Paladin tank with Priest tier 1. spells in 4/encounter (blessing, arour, healing good trade)


Not possible. To get L1 spells per encounter, you would have to buy enough talents to get priest spells from level 1 through 5. That wouldn't look much like a paladin anymore.

- Any class with any caster 4/encouter spell level.


Again, see above: you seem to be assuming that I'm proposing that any character could take any ability at any level, with no prerequisites. I explicitly said that I want to keep the prerequisites as they are: no level 5 spells before level 4 spells etc. Same applies to those per-encounter spells: level 5 spellcasting ability would be a requirement for that ability.

- Rogue with Carnage


Rogue talents don't apply to Carnage, only the primary attack. Problem solved.

- Recless Attack + Deathblows + Armour Grace  on character with high survivalability.


Armoured Grace would be nice, but all that would give is a 20% faster attack speed when wearing heavy armour. Not unbalancing IMO.

#313
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5383 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Usual link:

 

 

One of her new (Patch 3.0) talents, Vielo Vidório, is based on Flames of Devotion and is widely liked by QA. It gives nearby allies an attack speed boost whenever FoD is used.

 

Her other talent is Wrath of the Five Suns. It shoots out five Burn damage projectiles when she uses Sworn Enemy.

 

 

These are referred to Pallegina.

 

 

Additionally, from Twitter:

 

C6wOrxX.jpg
EtJeZhV.jpg


  • HawkSoft and Boeroer like this

#314
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 13942 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Sweet! Wait... what does this "|Accuracy" thing mean?



#315
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5383 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Sweet! Wait... what does this "|Accuracy" thing mean?

 

There's a line break. It's "Accuracy vs. Deflection"—though honestly I'm not sure why they felt it would be necessary to specify that you attack using Accuracy, since you can't possibly use anything else in this game. For the sake of being unambiguous and thorough, I suppose?



#316
Valorian

Valorian

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 971 posts

 

I'm also aware that some people really dislike games with classes and would prefer a classless frankenstein, but I believe even they would be reasonable enough to dismiss a statement proclaiming that a distinct (martial) accuracy and defenses starting point would be like a straitjacket.

Personally I love RPG's with classless systems that let me build whatever I want.  Like that other game abbreviated PoE....  However in a real time with pause strategy oriented game like Eternity?  No, you need a class system.  Classless systems work best for action oriented games where it is all about gameplay and actual play skill, not planning, exploiting weaknesses, and team synergy.

 

 

Class systems are superior, but I can tolerate classlessness in post-apocalyptic/sci-fi settings and/or solo RPGs, both of which I rarely play. When there's magic involved (fantasy) and the game is party based, my tolerance for classless systems evaporates almost completely. Every class is a world of its own and can experiment with its own builds. It's never a game of clones. From a lore perspective I like that, for instance, not everyone is capable of casting spells. You can recruit people that have abilities that your character can never ever have and that makes things way more interesting. 

 

Another thing I'm going to mention is uniformity; it's important to sometimes relax the hand (maybe it was even too relaxed with damage immunities :w00t: ) and restrain uniformity, exceptions are cool, yes? Example: combat styles in PoE. Why is the universal starting point being equally superest at every combat style (slightly improved by a single lonely talent and that's it)? I give you my word that it would be just fine and a beautiful thing if people without the dual-wielding talent got a -10 accuracy penalty when wardancing with two weapons, same with ranged weapons +/- ranged talents.  Even systems need an artistic touch. 


  • Torm51 and SkySlam like this

#317
DreamWayfarer

DreamWayfarer

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 655 posts

Usual link:


One of her new (Patch 3.0) talents, Vielo Vidório, is based on Flames of Devotion and is widely liked by QA. It gives nearby allies an attack speed boost whenever FoD is used.

Her other talent is Wrath of the Five Suns. It shoots out five Burn damage projectiles when she uses Sworn Enemy.


These are referred to Pallegina.
That indeed looks nice. Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason?

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 15 January 2016 - 11:58 AM.


#318
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 5383 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason?

 

Positively. Get out of here, weirdo!

 

 

 

 

 

 

:biggrin:



#319
DreamWayfarer

DreamWayfarer

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 655 posts


Is it weird that I actualy expected one of her talents to give a attack speed boost to alies for some reason?

Positively. Get out of here, weirdo!
:biggrin:
I guess it was because of when she gave a certain speech
Spoiler

Edited by DreamWayfarer, 15 January 2016 - 12:15 PM.


#320
Eisenheinrich

Eisenheinrich

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 137 posts

So, there was a video on twitch? 






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users