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My point as actually more that if your Eder build is anywhere arund 10th level or above using Tidefall, his accuracy should easily be higher than 73.  His base accuracy is 57 + 12 from Tidefall, + 2 from perception is 71, with items, you should be able to get him to 80ish.

 

The issue with spamming first level spells is also, to me, a really lazy design decision by Obsidian.  It really throws off game balance and leads to dumber game play.  Either way, it's not an issue of Knockdown being underpowered, but of spellscasters getting a bit out of balance from level 9 onwards.

 

Also, slicken doesn't wok the same way as knockdown tactically...not really equivalent

 

And knockdown does scale with int...and crits

Edited by curryinahurry
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My point as actually more that if your Eder build is anywhere arund 10th level or above using Tidefall, his accuracy should easily be higher than 73.  His base accuracy is 57 + 12 from Tidefall, + 2 from perception is 71, with items, you should be able to get him to 80ish.

 

The issue with spamming first level spells is also, to me, a really lazy design decision by Obsidian.  It really throws off game balance and leads to dumber game play.  Either way, it's not an issue of Knockdown being underpowered, but of spellscasters getting a bit out of balance from level 9 onwards.

 

Also, slicken doesn't wok the same way as knockdown tactically...not really equivalent

 

And knockdown does scale with int...and crits

You're right about Int scaling, I didn't realize that it doesn't show up with base 10 Int.

 

My Eder has 73 accuracy at level 13 with Tidefall, no buffs aside from Defender and +3 Perc from rest. I don't know where you're getting these higher numbers from.

 

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Yeah it's bugged...accuracy is off by 17 on my Eder build after 2.0.  

 

You should be 66 (base) + 12 (Tidefall) + 7 perception + 6 Weapon Focus = 91...not sure why you're having difficulty w knockdown.  

 

My 9th level Eder build w Saber is at 81 (I think) and he knocks stuff down 99% of the time.  You may have a bug?  Check the combat log next time you try a knockdown

Edited by curryinahurry
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The biggest problem that I've gathered from the discussion here and on the steam forums is that fighters need scaling for constant recovery, some per rest abiliites should be made per encounter, and disengagement strikes should be made more formidable to punish enemies charging through. Also, as regards defender, I agree that it needs a downside, and -5 deflection seems fine, but wary defender should also give 5 deflection to mitigate it.

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The biggest problem that I've gathered from the discussion here and on the steam forums is that fighters need scaling for constant recovery, some per rest abiliites should be made per encounter, and disengagement strikes should be made more formidable to punish enemies charging through. Also, as regards defender, I agree that it needs a downside, and -5 deflection seems fine, but wary defender should also give 5 deflection to mitigate it.

 

 

Why does Defender 2.0 need a malus?

 

It already is exclusive to all other modals, why pile on with a deflection malus as well?

 

If all it did was give you +2 engagements, without the deflection malus it would still be a bad choice just due to not being able to use any other modal.

 

Does it need a malus since access to Wary Defender is earth-shatteringly good? Wary Defender is a measly +5 to reflex, will and fortitude. Better to grab one of the general +10 defensive talents that are themselves poor choices.

 

What abilities have malus?

1.) Reckless Assault gets you a big +20% damage, really big +8 accuracy at a cost of -8 deflection.

2.) Swift Aim - gets you +20% firing rate, +50% reload at a cost of -7 accuracy.

3.) Vicious Aim - gets you +10 accuracy, +20% damage and -20% firing rate.

 

All of these are really great and really powerful. How does Defender 2.0 measure up to these?

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The biggest problem that I've gathered from the discussion here and on the steam forums is that fighters need scaling for constant recovery, some per rest abiliites should be made per encounter, and disengagement strikes should be made more formidable to punish enemies charging through. Also, as regards defender, I agree that it needs a downside, and -5 deflection seems fine, but wary defender should also give 5 deflection to mitigate it.

 

 

Why does Defender 2.0 need a malus?

 

It already is exclusive to all other modals, why pile on with a deflection malus as well?

 

If all it did was give you +2 engagements, without the deflection malus it would still be a bad choice just due to not being able to use any other modal.

 

Does it need a malus since access to Wary Defender is earth-shatteringly good? Wary Defender is a measly +5 to reflex, will and fortitude. Better to grab one of the general +10 defensive talents that are themselves poor choices.

 

What abilities have malus?

1.) Reckless Assault gets you a big +20% damage, really big +8 accuracy at a cost of -8 deflection.

2.) Swift Aim - gets you +20% firing rate, +50% reload at a cost of -7 accuracy.

3.) Vicious Aim - gets you +10 accuracy, +20% damage and -20% firing rate.

 

All of these are really great and really powerful. How does Defender 2.0 measure up to these?

 

I don't necessarily feel strongly about it requiring a malus, it was from a quote from Sawyer earlier in this thread; I do, however, think that 2 more engagements is quite good.

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A big issue for Fighters is how massively underwhelming it's starting passive talent is. For the other 10 classes, these starting talents are what make the class, well, that class. If we take away that passive, they'd essentially become, hilarious enough, bad fighters. For Fighters, they get a talent that's somewhat useful at the start, but doesn't drive the classes playstyle like the rest of the passives do, and goes from useful to useless by Act 2.

 

For example, the 5 casters all get the ability to cast spells as their class passive. This is, obviously, extremely core to their class, and without the spells they'd be just dreadful. This passive also gets increasingly better as they go up in level, with more and more uses per combat (with the per encounter thing sorta snapping the balance in half for the Vancian casters).

 

The other 5 physical classes all get a passive, that while not the entire reason for being like the casters ability to cast spells, nonethless are incredibly useful and inform on how that class will play, as well as scaling with the player, so it's always a similar level of use. (the old, linear War/Quadriatic Wizard thing). Rogues get their passive .5 damage mod, letting you know they'll hit single things hard. Barbarians get Carnage, making them a trash mob cleaning machine. Paladins get Devotion, a massive boost to all Defense's, giving a clear advantage for tankings. Rangers get their pet, which sets them apart from being a bad fighter/rogue with a bow. And Monks get the wound system, which doesn't fit this analogy very well.

 

What do Fighters get? Some regen ability. At the start, it somewhat acts like Pld's passive, and makes the Fighters seem a decent tank. But unlike the other Class Passives, it doesn't define the fighter, and instead is quickly rendereed entirely forgetable. What happens to the other classes when they lose their starting passive? They become bad Fighters. What does that make a fighter who essentially has no Class Talent? An average fighter. Which isn't a good thing to be.

Edited by Teioh_White
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The role of the fighter is to make you realize how bad they are.  When you get to the late game and they are doing nothing but taking up space you try to figure out what you can replace them with to make your party better.  Also the same as a Chanter

 

lol so true.

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