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With the recent gross over nerf of Defender, I don't see a reason for having a fighter in my party. Damge? no, other classes are better. Tank? Has nothing over the versatility of a paladin. Especially if your main is a paladin.

 

The fighters "thing" was it could be speced out to be a super tank, This was balanced by the fact that he's/her damage was terrible.

 

And now? atm, I'm not seeing a reason to have one in the party, aside from role playing. It's not that they are "bad", but in relation to other classes, he sits on the bench with the chanter. The dev's inabilty to make chanters good is a separate rant. Tho, still vexing.

 

Is there something that a fighter brings to the table, that other classes do not? Because I'm not seeing it.

Edited by rahl
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Fighter is the most balanced and most straightforward class in the game. 

 

I believe Defender was much overpowered before, but now its ok.

 

And to answer your question, a fighter can serve as a solid front line member of the party, he can still be a super tank or he can be a tanky dps, with great front line CC.

 

I have a plate wearing fighter wielding two handers, he literally keeps knocking foes down left and right and cause large damage with each hit.

 

I dont see any problems with fighters.

Edited by Brimsurfer
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Errr, well, ok. You didn't really answer anything. I know the fighter is decent. It's just inferior to other options. There is nothing a fighter can do, that another class can't do aswell or better.

 

I think all fighters use plate? So I don't know why you mentioned that. Is there some robe fighters out there? My figher has 1 knocked down per encounter. But yours is knocking down left and right? Ok.

 

If you want to play devil's advocate, you have to try harder.

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They are pretty straightforward front liners, giving out melee damage, keeping enemies off your back line and surviving being attacked. Defender change might make them less good at that than they were, but they still can handle it just fine for the most part. Most complaints about fighters seem to more about monks or paladins being better at certain things than fighters being unusable.

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Fighters were arguably the best pure tanks in the game before 2.0 because of their impressive Deflection scores.  Now, they're barely more durable than a paladin and offer far less in the way of party-wide bonuses or general utility than a paladin would. 

Edited by jsaving
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Fighters only weakness is lack of per encounter AoE CC... they can deal good reliable dmg and they can tank, they can cc single target enemies.

 

I have a party of 6 dwarf fighters (albeit on normal) and they breeze through everything. 2 sword and board heavy armor front liners. Two pike and greatsword medium armor melee DPS on second line and 2 ranged light armor arbalest wielding ranged fighters. The only problem I have are the dragon fights. I cannot tackle them with this squad due to lack of reliable CC unless I would spam scrolls and fast AoE clearing abilities (scrolls again), but any other content they just breeze through with the right positioning. I entered WM with them at lvl 7 and they just stormed through it. Entered Endless Paths and so far, until lvl 9, no resistance. I assume it would get a bit harder and force me to use food, potions and summons more often on hard, with more rest spam, but it would still be probably doable.

 

You just need to build them skill wise and stat wise differently. 6 Dwarven fighters is fun to play.  

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I personally enjoy having a fighter on-hand as a "fire and forget" tank. Not totally forget, of course, but when a fighter has enemies occupied, it frees me up to more intensely micromanage my other party members. Especially my casters.

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Fighters are decent low-maintenance offtanks - solid "fifth man" party members. They're not tops at anything and never were, but they're about as good at their best function - surviving on the frontline while using high-damage weapons - as they ever were.

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Well, the party of 6 Boreal dwarf fighters is rocking anything on their path except 2 boss dragons on normal. I do not have to use any scrolls or potions, sometimes I use a ring of affliction suppression but that's it. If I would care to improve enchantments and use scrolls I would probably kill dragons too, and probably be able to go through hard as well, given some rest spamming. WM was a breeze, Endless path even easier, now just to move story to one point and go to that Tower introduced with WM expansion. Maybe there could be some challenge. only real challenges were the bounty fights and again Dragons which i chose to not fight for now. Maybe at some point before the end game I will go back and spam scrolls and summons to kill them, but so far.. not really feeling like it.

 

Fighters are viable in all roles. Give them some lore too and they can be pocket mage with some scrolls.

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First thing Eder is a great companion and will find a place in the team just because of his personality. He also gets an extra general talent, the one that increases the passive regen. His stats are actually pretty balanced and in the new 2.0 PotD his large constitution will serve you well. Give him plate, a shield, sabre and a pistol for an alpha strike and you have a solid supporting cast member.

 

Take Eder out of the discussion. Consider only as a main character, or as a custom built merc. Also stick to PotD, the lower difficulties are beatable with anything so it doesn't have a bearing on whether Fighters need help.

 

The problem is that every role that a fighter has, someone else does it a lot better.

 

Frontline Tank - A Paladin has higher deflection and higher defenses due to Faith and Conviction. A Paladin's Lay on Hands scales with level, gets more healing in a shorter time then the Fighter's regen, can be used twice per encounter and can be used on anyone. A Paladin also gets auras and all those great exhortations which are both better in power, uses per encounter and can be used to benefit the team. All of a Fighter's abilities only help the Fighter, not the team. A Fighter can take Confident Aim, weapon spec and mastery for approximately +38% damage in auto attacks at the expense of two abilities and a talent.

 

A Frontline Fighter Tank will have less survivability, far less utility, but will have slightly more damaging auto attacks then a Paladin. If the goal is to be able to survive on the frontline, then the Paladin is clearly better. A tanky Monk is  better in this role as well due to more deflection and defenses, and more damage.

 

Frontline Melee - Someone who can stay on the frontline and dish out damage. Lets compare a Fighter and a Monk. Both have the same high base accuracy, deflection, endurance and a Monk has higher health. The Fighter build is the same as above, stacking passive bonuses. The Monk will have the same armor, a toggle-able +8 deflection/defense buff, fast attacking fists that do average speed damage, a +25% attack speed buff with a +25% lightning lash. This is two abilities and a talent and is better than the Fighter's +38% damage and also gets him more deflection. Plus the Monk is dual wielding his fists compared to a Fighter with a shield. Give the Monk a shield and he is still ahead by the +8 deflection. This does not even consider Torments Reach, Flagellent Path, or any of the other great Monk abilities. If the response is that fists can't be enchanted, well the monk can use weapons as well. Swap in dual wielded spears that can get two lash effects, one on the weapon and one from lightning strikes and the Monk is not losing in the comparison.

 

A frontline Monk will deal more damage then a Fighter as well as being more defensive. Even going full tank mode with weapon and shield you can use the Larder Door for extra damage doing a Full Attack Torment's Reach. Go dual wield style for extra damage with a shield in the other slot for when you need a big deflection buff. Add in one wasted talent for weapon and shield style and your swap to tanky shield Monk gives you even more deflection.

 

A Fighter will do +25% damage with a ranged weapon in the same weapon group. That's pretty much all he has on the Monk.

 

DPS or second row damage dealer - A rogue is far squishier but deals so much more damage it is hard to compare. If the second row is safe the Rogue will be massively ahead in damage. A Barbarian will have carnage which puts out a lot of damage. All the Fighter gets for extra damage is the same +38% from Confident Aim, weapon spec and mastery. Compare a Fighter with a two hander with a tanky rogue with a sabre, large shield, and weapon and shield style with reckless assault. The accuracy is the same (+8-8), deflection starts 15 points behind a fighter, you lose 8 with reckless but gain 6 with W&S style, and 16 with the shield. Net -1 deflection before adding enchantments which would put the Rogue ahead. Damage wise the Rogue will put out more damage with sneak and deathblows then a fighter ever could. Less endurance and a lot less health would require more resting but depending on playstyle it might not make a difference.

 

 

In what scenario does one say that they'd prefer to have a fighter? They aren't any more durable then a Paladin or Monk, they have way less utility than a Paladin and deal less damage than a Monk.

 

The old Defender let them go for damage and have a good defense at the same time. You didn't need to get to the unhittable level of 140 deflection, 100 was enough. Now it is hard to get to 100 without a shield except for short duration buffs. I suppose Monks were always better but most conventional wisdom was to put them in robes with bad deflection. paladin's surpassed them with their enhancements in prior patches.

 

Fighter's need something to set them apart. One thought from the Defender thread was to give them more graze>hit type abilities and increased minimum damage so that they'd be the consistent hitter that'd be more useful the tougher the enemy.

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Errr, well, ok. You didn't really answer anything. I know the fighter is decent. It's just inferior to other options. There is nothing a fighter can do, that another class can't do aswell or better.

 

I think all fighters use plate? So I don't know why you mentioned that. Is there some robe fighters out there? My figher has 1 knocked down per encounter. But yours is knocking down left and right? Ok.

 

If you want to play devil's advocate, you have to try harder.

Your fighter should have two knockdowns per encounter actually, and there is a talent to increase it to three.  There are also weapons that can cause knockdowns such as knockdown on crit.  

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Fighter is much better than 'decent' as some people are putting it. Fighter is still among Ace classes of the game.

 

And people keep comparing fighter with paladin but they keep forgetting fighter also have better accuracy and damage potential than a paladin, also Defender is still very powerful, the fact that it allows fighter to engage additional enemies is completely uber. (and dont say that a fighter can't handle multiple opponents at a time because my fighter can easily handle 4 to 5 opponents at a time, 

 

Not to mention Fighters frontline CC potential, Paladin doesn't have these CCs.

 

All in all Fighter is an Ace class of this game, there is no need to buff anything, its already too strong. Its just that, now, people can't send fighter in and forget about him because of Defender (much deserved) nerf. Now people actually have to play fighter to be effective, same as other classes. 

Edited by Brimsurfer
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You underestimate Defender talent.

Paladin can't keep 5 enemies on himself.

 

I like Eder, but I feel like the mass engagement is not that useful. Most enemies just ignore engagement to run after my back-row party members anyway, and he doesn't do much on the disengage attack.

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IMO, a tank is more than just having high deflection and casting support spells.  The fighter has a lot of crowd control and the ability to engage a lot of people with defender, which makes them excellent for controlling enemies on the battlefield.  IMO, it's certainly a great tradeoff for having less deflection.

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You underestimate Defender talent.

Paladin can't keep 5 enemies on himself.

 

 

Everyone can get three engagements via their one inherent, the talent Hold the Line and one from a weapon. Everyone is not re-specing their melee in order to get the indispensable Hold the Line. In fact no one bothers since engagements are nice but not critical. Enemies will now choose to disengage which at best gets you one free attack with +20? accuracy buff, at worst the one that disengages is the one you were attacking and you run after him getting disengagement attacks from everyone else. If no one disengages all Defender gets you is a penalty to your deflection.

 

Defender is +2 engagements, -5 deflection and stops you from using any other modal.  It is pretty useless and the follow on Wary Defender is at best average in worth.

 

 

 

 

Fighter is much better than 'decent' as some people are putting it. Fighter is still among Ace classes of the game.

 

And people keep comparing fighter with paladin but they keep forgetting fighter also have better accuracy and damage potential than a paladin, also Defender is still very powerful, the fact that it allows fighter to engage additional enemies is completely uber. (and dont say that a fighter can't handle multiple opponents at a time because my fighter can easily handle 4 to 5 opponents at a time, 

 

Not to mention Fighters frontline CC potential, Paladin doesn't have these CCs.

 

All in all Fighter is an Ace class of this game, there is no need to buff anything, its already too strong. Its just that, now, people can't send fighter in and forget about him because of Defender (much deserved) nerf. Now people actually have to play fighter to be effective, same as other classes. 

 

 

How can a Fighter be considered an Ace?

 

Keeping casters and ranged people out of the discussion for fairness's sake, lets just look at melee.

 

You have Fighters, Paladin, Barbarian, Rogue and Monk.

 

Lets consider tanking ability

1.) Paladin (A+) - Hands down better defenses, deflection, and healing.

2.) Monk (B-) - better deflection from duality and higher base health, plus they can use a shield.

3.) Fighter (C+) - If intellect is average or higher and if you spend an ability you can get a short term buff to approach a Paladin's level and surpass a monk.

4.)Rogue (D)- Give them heavy armor, a shield and weapon and shield style and they can do as good as a Fighter except for the base deflection being so low to start

5.) Barbarian (C-)- Their deflection is too low to avoid damage and their accuracy can't handle the large malus from shield use. Their per encounter heal can keep them in the game.

 

Now lets look at damage output.

1.) Rogue (A) - damage is what they do

2.) Barbarian (A) - Carnage is where they shine, the ability to cause splash damage with every swing is hard to quantify.

3.) Monk (B) - fast speed fists that do average damage. Can add +25% speed and +25% damage via lightning strikes. multiple AoE attacks.

4.) Fighter (C+) - can take weapon spec and mastery for +25% damage, can take confident aim for +20% minimum damage

5.) Paladin (D) -  possibly two FoD strikes

 

 

Crowd Control

1.) Monk (A) - stunning blows, can take weakening on crit, torment's reach is spammable AoE debuff, Force of Anguish is spammable long duration prone, flagellents path. They have a lot of choices and all are at least per encounter.

2.) Fighter ((C+)- two knockdowns per encounter. Not bad but not great.

3.)Barbarian (D) - can take a few debuffing shouts and a passive AoE sickness but no real control

4.) Rogue - © - can take a blind or a hobble attack, main crowd control is applying the dead effect, very useful.

5.) Paladin (F) - I don't think they have any.

 

Team synergy

1.) Paladin (A) -its what they do. heals auras, exhortations all are good and all help the team

2.)Barbarian (D) - can take the AoE sicken to help debuff the enemy to assist the team

3.(Monk, Rogue, Fighter (F) - Don't think they have any team assist type powers.

 

All have a purpose - Paladins can tank and help the team with many abilities, Rogues can strike down single enemies easily, Barbarians clear out mobs better than anyone, Monks are durable enough to stand in the front and fight and Fighters? Fighters get many lackluster talents and abilities.. Before they could spec for damage and still tank good enough for long enough. Now you need to choose one or the other and which ever way you choose, others are just flat out better.

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^  Not that I really disagree with your assesment, but you seem to be disregarding some very critical fighter abilties:

 

Tanking: Engagement, Defender, wary defender+ Hold the line...That's 5 engaged min; and that will only become more important as more patches come out.

 

Unbending and Unbroken aren't bad either (although Unbending should be per encounter)

 

Offense: Knockdown + disciplined barrage = effective +20 damage, armored grace = 7 attacks for 6 against any other class wearing the same armor (add this to a high dex fighter + potion of power and you will do plenty of damage.  Add interrupting blows and a lightly armored fighter wielding a greatsword will almost never get hit one on one).

 

Crowd Control: Clear out and Into the fray...into the fray is underrated in my estimation, and I've manged to pull enemies even at max engagement with Eder.

 

Team Synergy: Guardian Stance.  Also, because of abilties like knockdown and clear out, fighters work extremely well with Rogues Priests and Ciphers (the latter because they can inflict staus effects that can keep enemies down for really long periods or turn a particularly tough opponent while stunned).

 

Again; do I think Fighters could use a bit more? yes, especially after level 7; but they still are a very strong class.  

Edited by curryinahurry
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ehh... you miss out so many various fighter abilities....

 

Ok for tank:

 

Class:

Critical defense

Upg. Defender (active all time)

Into the Fray (per encounter single target pull with crushing dmg type)

Knockdown (x2)

Unbroken (per encounter ability, that if for whatever reason your tank falls he gets up, buffed up)

Vigorous defense (per encounter extra 20 def to all def stats, activate when it matters)

 

General:

Weapon and shield

Superior deflection

+10 fort

+10 will

+10 reflex

 

you top that with items that have active skills like ring of suppression and boost overall defense stats and this guy sports around 100 in def, fort, ref and 90 will, without any non modals + he sports good accuracy (mine has at level 12 around 70) so he makes sure that enemy thinks before breaking engagement + he can have two weapon/shield combinations depending on the foes...

 

get two of these guys and there is NOTHING that will break that line (except two dragons)

 

Highest dmg output registered was around 50, with consistent 10-30s depending on the foe

 

More Combat oriented/CC oriented melee DPS:

 

Class:

Armored Grace

Clear out (huge cone AoE CC active, the bad parts about it are 1 - it's melee, 2 it's 2x per rest, if it was per encounter it would be godly)

Confident Aim

Critical Defense

KD (x2)

Weapon spec

Weapon mastery

 

General:

Weapon focus (two handed)

Envenomed strike

Vulnerable attack (vs high DR)

Bloody Slaughter

 

This guy has not so great passive defenses, but his role is second line / support melee + consistent DPS, in my experience he goes well with pikes and other far reach weapons

He has accuracy in 70s-80s but with two handed weapons he can deal nice dmg while wearing good armor with some more than decent DR. Give him nice Might and Int and he will deliver.

 

Highest dmg output registered was around 80, with consistent 30-50s depending on the foe

 

Ranged DPS:

 this is a bit gimmiky build but it is good enough to think of it with weapons like Arbalest (my fav - cause of inflicting prone on hit) or Arquebus (second fav - cause of DR bypass)

 

Give them good Per, Dex and decent Might and Int and they do well enough

 

Class skills:

 

Armored Grace

Disciplined Barrage (short term accuracy buff for key targets, the sad part is it is only 1 per enc... i wish there could be more)

Crit defense

Confident aim

Vigorous defense (for this time when you see that you are about to be targeted by some spellcasters OR you are getting engaged in melee and you need to switch to back up dual wield for high interrupts until your CC spec companions will get them off you)

Weapon Spec

Weapon Mastery

 

 

General skills:

Weapon focus

Gunner

Marksman

Penetrating shot (for those high DR enemies)

Two weapon style (for back up situations so you can get mad dual wield with high interrupt chance and good accuracy)

 

This guy has good passive defenses and can wear heavier armor and still have good action speed. If you would have a chanter to help with these heavy ranged weapons this guy just goes crazy

 

Highest dmg output registered was around 80, with consistent 30-50s depending on the foe)

 

To Sum up:

 

While they do not have amazing skillset they have good passives and fairly well actives, I would not mind seeing +1 to vig defense and disciplined barrage and changing clear to per encounter ability to make them really good, but they still work. Itemize them well and they go beast mode... I mean the group of 2+2+2 went crazy at level 7 on the White March. You just make sure that you will get good items and you might consider different primary weapon choices for really BiS items, but i was happy with this experiment. You can always help yourself with potions, scrolls and traps (get high lore decent survival, athletics and give one guy focus on mechanics). Fights get longer than in case of mixed parties with spellcasters, but you don't have to rest after every second encounter, you basically need to rest before boss fights (if you have used some per rest abilities before) or once your HP pools get into red.

 

There are still some skills I missed out and was not sure if to put in or not, like unbending, extra KD, etc. but again it is all about the playstyle you are going for with the given fighter. (for example I would put unbending on the two handed melee fighter to offset his lower deflection)

Edited by Darkpriest
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Unbroken - nice ability, but how often do you get knocked out? Also can be replaced with a second chance item. Not worth a level 11 class ability slot. If it was available at an earlier level like 5th it'd be better or if it was the default ability.

 

 

Unbending - short duration and at best heals 50%. If you have 200 endurance and you take 200 damage over 15 seconds you die, activate your unbending and you heal 100 endurance over 15 seconds. Way less powerful than the barbarian savage defiance or the paladins lay on hands.

 

Armored Grace - not bad ability. I think that -50% armor penalty is roughly equal to -33% action speed, so the -16% from armored grace is roughly equal to +11% action speed. Not bad but not game changing.

 

Clear Out - would be a great per encounter, as a 2x rest it is terrible. When you can pick this at level 9 a wizard can cast 4 slickens per encounter.

 

Confident Aim - I like this, would like to see this theme expanded throughout the fighters other abilities. make them better at minimum damage and graze>hit

 

Vigorous defense - short duration, vastly less powerful then a paladin's reinforcing exhortation, less deflection, less duration and less uses per encounter.

 

Critical Defense - not bad just not very sexy. I still take it especially if I dumped intellect and the duration based ones are out of the question.

 

 

 

Fighters need something sexy, something that makes you want to have a fighter. Paladins have their auras and exhortations, barbarians have their carnage and frenzy, Roques have massive sneak attacks, Monks have spammable AoE torments and can zoom around the battlefield and Fighters have?????

 

The old Defender covered up a lot that was missing. With that Fighters were effective, they'd face tank a mob and beat it down. Now you can't avoid taking the beating and you are found wanting.

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Unbroken - nice ability, but how often do you get knocked out? Also can be replaced with a second chance item. Not worth a level 11 class ability slot. If it was available at an earlier level like 5th it'd be better or if it was the default ability.

 

 

Unbending - short duration and at best heals 50%. If you have 200 endurance and you take 200 damage over 15 seconds you die, activate your unbending and you heal 100 endurance over 15 seconds. Way less powerful than the barbarian savage defiance or the paladins lay on hands.

 

Armored Grace - not bad ability. I think that -50% armor penalty is roughly equal to -33% action speed, so the -16% from armored grace is roughly equal to +11% action speed. Not bad but not game changing.

 

Clear Out - would be a great per encounter, as a 2x rest it is terrible. When you can pick this at level 9 a wizard can cast 4 slickens per encounter.

 

Confident Aim - I like this, would like to see this theme expanded throughout the fighters other abilities. make them better at minimum damage and graze>hit

 

Vigorous defense - short duration, vastly less powerful then a paladin's reinforcing exhortation, less deflection, less duration and less uses per encounter.

 

Critical Defense - not bad just not very sexy. I still take it especially if I dumped intellect and the duration based ones are out of the question.

 

 

 

Fighters need something sexy, something that makes you want to have a fighter. Paladins have their auras and exhortations, barbarians have their carnage and frenzy, Roques have massive sneak attacks, Monks have spammable AoE torments and can zoom around the battlefield and Fighters have?????

 

The old Defender covered up a lot that was missing. With that Fighters were effective, they'd face tank a mob and beat it down. Now you can't avoid taking the beating and you are found wanting.

 

 

Well, about unarmored grace... the thing is, it's a nice ability until you start comparing it to what the other classes get.

Think of it this way: generally, unless you're wearing plate, the armor recovery increases at a rate of +5% per point of DR; this means that, again, unless you're wearing plate, if you take confident aim it's pretty much as if you were wearing an armor that's 3 points of DR higher of the one you're wearing.

IOW: instead of wearing leather armor for 4 DR and 20% recovery time, you're now wearing scale for 7 DR and an effective 20% recovery. Sounds nice, right?

Now, think of it this way: who else gets an ability that improves his DR by 3 points? Better yet, it improves the whole party's DR by 3 point? With some hit to graze conversion added on top for good measure as a single class ability?

 

Also, critical defense is horrible. And I mean literally horrible... it's a class ability that gets worse the more deflection you have. It's literally worse the better you are at your job.  

 

Fighters are pretty nice at low levels. At high levels... nope. No AoE capability whatsoever (and, really, unless you're rocking rogue-like dps, that means that, regardless of your +25% damage and your speed-graze-to hit conversion, you're probably one of the lowest dps in the game ) , no class ability to mitigate the incoming damage aside from a buff that lasts only 15 seconds, 3 (at most) 5 seconds knockdowns that pale compared to what the other classes get ( monks get to push away stuff and knock it down for 10 seconds straight, and they can do it multiple times/combat, and that's leaving out priests and ciphers with their 4+ AoE knockdowns ), the only thing they get is the ability to engage more stuff and decent self healing which either doesn't scale or can only be used per rest. I suppose they're decent at tanking dragons, due to Unbending, but that's pretty much all.

Edited by Njall
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You underestimate Defender talent.

Paladin can't keep 5 enemies on himself.

 

And a fighter can't survive keeping 5 enemies that would be a threat to the rest of the party on themself.

 

Nor is their much point to doing so, unless you literally only have a single frontliner.

If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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Defender was that sexy thing.  Maybe it was a little too powerful and needed to be toned down, but a -5 to deflection is ridiculous. Make it + 5 and another +5 from Wary Defender and it'll be more useful than Cautious Attack without being unbalanced.

 

Well, even before the nerf, it only put fighters like 5 points of deflection ahead of what they could achieve with cautious attack (and still like 6 points behind paladins). 

Yeah, it was a really good modal.

Also, it was the signature modal of a class whose schtick was having better passive abilities than anyone else in the game, which translates into "either you have better numbers or you end up sucking, 'cause you surely can't rely on some leet spell to keep up". 

It wasn't really OP, in context. Sure, it was good, but the same can be said of the ranger's or rogue modals, which are way better than what's available to the other classes. 

Edited by Njall
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