Defender 2.0 beta nerf

[Njall]

 

Still waiting to see if a Developer will join in this convo to explain the thinking behind this awful change

 

Maybe they think + 2 engagement limit is fine and they don't want it to add to deflection? Why would focusing your attention on multiple units not reduce your ability to more effectively defend yourself?

 

Thematically, it makes sense. Honestly, my only issue is the fact that they won't allow players to negate it with Wary Defender (+5 to every defense except deflection). I don't see a good reason to pick up Wary Defender if that's all it adds.

 

 

Honestly, why even bother with defender in the first place? It costs you a class ability instead of a talent, it eats up your active modal and thus doesn't even combine with cautious attack. Just grab hold the line and, while you'll engage fewer foes, your deflection won't suffer, and you can even use savage attacker for +20% damage instead of cautious attack and still be more survivable than with defender, and the difference in stickiness will be negligible.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Njall

[MunoValente]

It costs you a class ability instead of a talent, it eats up your active modal and thus doesn't even combine with cautious attack. Just grab hold the line and, while you'll engage fewer foes, your deflection won't suffer, and you can even use savage attacker for +20% damage instead of cautious attack and still be more survivable than with defender, and the difference in stickiness will be negligible.

 

 

Asking again are there any particular rules on this?  I know the old version of Defender didn't combine with Cautious Attack, but other modals can combine with each other, but it seems kind of random sometimes. Is there any particular reason this new version couldn't be active at the same time as Cautious Attack other that than is just how it worked before?  Has anyone tested it?  If it can now be combined with Cautious Attack, it is basically a higher risk/higher reward version of hold the line.

Edited August 11, 2015 by MunoValente

[Kilburn]

Ya, wow, -20 deflection, why dont they just delete the ability from the game? lol.

 

make it Defender: +3 deflection +2 targets engaged +1 damage reduction

 

wary defender: +3 deflection +6 other saves

 

Still good, but not as overpowered as the one now.

[View619]

Ya, wow, -20 deflection, why dont they just delete the ability from the game? lol.

 

make it Defender: +3 deflection +2 targets engaged +1 damage reduction

 

wary defender: +3 deflection +6 other saves

 

Still good, but not as overpowered as the one now.

 

It's not actually -20 deflection. The 2.0 version is -5, but I'm assuming people are counting in the deflection gained from the pre-2.0 ability for some reason.

[Kilburn]

 

Ya, wow, -20 deflection, why dont they just delete the ability from the game? lol.

 

make it Defender: +3 deflection +2 targets engaged +1 damage reduction

 

wary defender: +3 deflection +6 other saves

 

Still good, but not as overpowered as the one now.

 

It's not actually -20 deflection. The 2.0 version is -5, but I'm assuming people are counting in the deflection gained from the pre-2.0 ability for some reason.

 

 

 

It is -20 compared to what it is currently.

 

If this 2.0 change sicks, they made it garbage. The 2.0 version would be garbage for 1 slot. For 2 slots it is just.... yeah. bad, really really bad.

[Njall]

TBH, however, I still don't understand why people deem the current instance of the class ability ( pre-beta ) to be OP. It shouldn't be compared to other modals, it should be compared to other class abilities, the likes of paladins auras, which cost a single class ability slot and stack with pretty much any other modals without drawbacks, or the whateverisname chant that frightens all opponents effectively giving everyone in the party +10 to all defenses all day long... cautious attack and the other modals shouldn't even enter the picture, all that should be evaluated in this instance is if the fighter's defenses were out of line when compared to those of the other defense-oriented classes.

Don't evaluate the modal in a vacuum, put it in context.

Now, if the ability was unfairly competing with the other fighter class abilities then I could see them nerfing it, but they should also give some kind of defensive buff to the class, which they don't seem to be doing. 

Really, the focus of this tread IMO shouldn't be "was defender balanced with the other modals?". That's a question that should be asked later on. 

The first question that should be addressed, IMHO, is "did this class ability make fighters too good?".

Edited August 12, 2015 by Njall

[Doppelschwert]

Well, did the new beta patch update change anything regarding defender?

[Gary1986]

Well, did the new beta patch update change anything regarding defender?

 

Nope. I really hope they sort Defender/Wary Defender out before the expansion comes out.

[evilcat]

The problem is that people do not call Fighters to be OP.

The whole change is (lets be optimistic) some kind of typo mistake from devs.

Paladin's auras are not that strong, defensive one is like... Armor of Faith (Priest spell), offensive is like Blessing. Exept you can have two priest spell active at time, but auras not.

Chanters do not have chant giving +10 to all defenses. They need combine 3 chants for that and the all 3 will be active for limited amount to time (4 sec/16sec). If you want +10 to all defenses better aim for circle of protection. Really when it comes to buffs or healing it is hard to compare with Priest.

 

All the war Paladin vs Fighter is just comparing 2 second tier classes, the game changers are caster classes.

The difference betwean 1st and 2nd tier class is that 2nd tier class can knock down a couple of enemies twice per rest (Clear Out) and the 1st class can knock down all of them 5 time per encounter (Slicken). And it still dosnt matter since roleplayers will just pick whoever is more fun to keep in party.

 

The whole balancing urge in single player game is lost cause. Why to even waste time for that? It dosnt matters. Having ability which allows to kill every creature in the room is a bit OP (anyone miss old mind blades?) sticking 4 minions to one character is not that good.

 

IMHO more important is to keep all classes fun to play and worthy keeping in party. Make them do something, add some active abilities.

 

There is no devs commentary, so it is hard to speculate what is the point. But the better idea would be buff stuff and add more abilities/talents.

DPS fighters could benefit from some abilities buffing their dps, give them more abilities like "Sunder: Reduces target armor by 10" so they could do something cool. Or good old "Pommel Strike: Paralyze target" and never forget "Execute: Attack and deal the more dmg the less health target have". Or some crit abilities. "Sharpen Edge: all your slashing weapons deal extra 3 slash dmg per hit" (the idea here is open some dual wielding fighter)

Same amoubt of love could go to Chanters. Some of Paladins talents are also horrible (intense flames for example).

 

If they really need to nerf Defender since generally Deflection is nerfed along the board, or wish for less full tanks, then better go for:

Defender: +5 Deflection, +2 engagement

Wary Defender: +5 to defenses other than deflection

Speed reduction is gone since we want shield and board to deal more dmg not just stand still.

Edited August 12, 2015 by evilcat

[Gary1986]

The problem is that people do not call Fighters to be OP.

The whole change is (lets be optimistic) some kind of typo mistake from devs.

Paladin's auras are not that strong, defensive one is like... Armor of Faith (Priest spell), offensive is like Blessing. Exept you can have two priest spell active at time, but auras not.

Chanters do not have chant giving +10 to all defenses. They need combine 3 chants for that and the all 3 will be active for limited amount to time (4 sec/16sec). If you want +10 to all defenses better aim for circle of protection. Really when it comes to buffs or healing it is hard to compare with Priest.

 

All the war Paladin vs Fighter is just comparing 2 second tier classes, the game changers are caster classes.

 

The whole balancing urge in single player game is lost cause. Why to even waste time for that? It dosnt matters. Having ability which allows to kill every creature in the room is a bit OP (anyone miss old mind blades?) sticking 4 minions to one character is not that good.

 

IMHO more important is to keep all classes fun to play and worthy keeping in party. Make them do something, add some active abilities.

 

There is no devs commentary, so it is hard to speculate what is the point. But the better idea would be buff stuff and add more abilities/talents.

DPS fighters could benefit from some abilities buffing their dps, give them more abilities like "Sunder: Reduces target armor by 10" so they could do something cool. Or good old "Pommel Strike: Paralyze target" and never forget "Execute: Attack and deal the more dmg the less health target have". Or some crit abilities.

Same amoubt of love could go to Chanters. Some of Paladins talents are also horrible (intense flames for example).

 

If they really need to nerf Defender since generally Deflection is nerfed along the board, or wish for less full tanks, then better go for:

Defender: +5 Deflection, +2 engagement

Wary Defender: +5 to defenses other than deflection

Speed reduction is gone since we want shield and board to deal more dmg not just stand still.

 

If it was overpowered compared to other talents & this was a multiplayer game i could understand. But nerfing a defensive talent this badly when the talent isnt over powered and we are on a single player game is just beyond me.

[Raven Darkholme]

 

The problem is that people do not call Fighters to be OP.

The whole change is (lets be optimistic) some kind of typo mistake from devs.

Paladin's auras are not that strong, defensive one is like... Armor of Faith (Priest spell), offensive is like Blessing. Exept you can have two priest spell active at time, but auras not.

Chanters do not have chant giving +10 to all defenses. They need combine 3 chants for that and the all 3 will be active for limited amount to time (4 sec/16sec). If you want +10 to all defenses better aim for circle of protection. Really when it comes to buffs or healing it is hard to compare with Priest.

 

All the war Paladin vs Fighter is just comparing 2 second tier classes, the game changers are caster classes.

 

The whole balancing urge in single player game is lost cause. Why to even waste time for that? It dosnt matters. Having ability which allows to kill every creature in the room is a bit OP (anyone miss old mind blades?) sticking 4 minions to one character is not that good.

 

IMHO more important is to keep all classes fun to play and worthy keeping in party. Make them do something, add some active abilities.

 

There is no devs commentary, so it is hard to speculate what is the point. But the better idea would be buff stuff and add more abilities/talents.

DPS fighters could benefit from some abilities buffing their dps, give them more abilities like "Sunder: Reduces target armor by 10" so they could do something cool. Or good old "Pommel Strike: Paralyze target" and never forget "Execute: Attack and deal the more dmg the less health target have". Or some crit abilities.

Same amoubt of love could go to Chanters. Some of Paladins talents are also horrible (intense flames for example).

 

If they really need to nerf Defender since generally Deflection is nerfed along the board, or wish for less full tanks, then better go for:

Defender: +5 Deflection, +2 engagement

Wary Defender: +5 to defenses other than deflection

Speed reduction is gone since we want shield and board to deal more dmg not just stand still.

 

 

If it was overpowered compared to other talents & this was a multiplayer game i could understand. But nerfing a defensive talent this badly when the talent isnt over powered and we are on a single player game is just beyond me.

Thank people who DID call fighter op, for a long time, even though it was nonsense.

[docfc]

Warriors are already nerfed with perc. This another nerf makes no sense at all !

I don't want a team with 2 pally as tanks !

I hope it's only a text bug.

[Njall]

 

[...]Chanters do not have chant giving +10 to all defenses. They need combine 3 chants for that and the all 3 will be active for limited amount to time (4 sec/16sec). If you want +10 to all defenses [...]

 

 

 

I was referring to the one that frightens your opponents. That's a -10 accuracy for all mobs affected, which translates into a +10 to all defenses for your allies ( also, -2 dexterity, which further reduces damage because it affects attack speed ). I'm not sure if it affects spell accuracy, however.

Edited August 12, 2015 by Njall

[Njall]

Warriors are already nerfed with perc. This another nerf makes no sense at all !

I don't want a team with 2 pally as tanks !

I hope it's only a text bug.

Unlikely, IIRC the text mentions that your deflection is lowered when using the modal, it'not just the modifier itself that's different.

[Tomice]

Anyone checked the new build yet? Is this change still inside?

[View619]

Anyone checked the new build yet? Is this change still inside?

 

Yes, it wasn't a mistake.

[gkathellar]

Why would focusing your attention on multiple units not reduce your ability to more effectively defend yourself?

 

Thematically, it makes sense.

Simulationism: justifying bad design decisions since 1974.

[Doppelschwert]

I think a nice solution to keep both defender and cautious attack interesting could be if defenders deflection adjustment would scale to the number of enemies that you are engaged with. It should be worse than cautious attack at 0-1 engagements, even at 2 and better for 3 or more.

 

Something like  +[7.5 * #engaged]  for #engaged >1, 0 otherwise.

 

Thats probably not the solution you want to hear, but that would make it an actual choice between defender and cautious attack without trivializing both, if that was the motivation for the nerf in the first place.

[Njall]

I think a nice solution to keep both defender and cautious attack interesting could be if defenders deflection adjustment would scale to the number of enemies that you are engaged with. It should be worse than cautious attack at 0-1 engagements, even at 2 and better for 3 or more.

 

Something like  +[7.5 * #engaged]  for #engaged >1, 0 otherwise.

 

Thats probably not the solution you want to hear, but that would make it an actual choice between defender and cautious attack without trivializing both, if that was the motivation for the nerf in the first place.

 

As I said, the problem with this nerf, IMHO, isn't so much the fact that defender sucks ( and it sucks big time now ), it's more that fighters now fall behind in terms of defenses compared to the other dedicated tanking class of the game ( and not just them, they're also behind monks, and chanters at least ). 

So, again, IMO any changes made to defender should be made considering the broader picture. 

If the point was just that defender was over budget and needed nerfing,they should have compensated  somehow, but now the class falls behind in terms of defenses, and good defenses was all it had in the first place, because it's an otherwise plain class without any strong point.

The fighter suffers from the bad LFQW syndrome of the game already, and we're getting to level 14 with the expansion pack, which means that casters will get a new level of spells and, probably, will get to use their 3rd level spells as encounter powers (hi, circle of protection 4/encounter!), so it only will end up falling further behind the casters as the level cap increases; they're nerfing its weak cc and its damage with the introduction of immunities, it's a class without any real utilities ( just compare it, for example, to the paladin, another tank, who gets to raise or heal people while still sporting the best defenses of the game by a mile ) so it also falls behind tanks, they're giving out its unique self healing as a multiclass talent, further reducing the gulf in survability with the other classes and now they're nerfing its defenses as well. 

That's why what you propose is "not the solution we want to hear", or at least, it's "not all of the solutions we want to hear": I don't really care if defender gets nerfed hard because it's deemed to be out of line as an ability ( I don't think it was, TBH, but that's another matter ) as long as the class remains competitive, I care that the fighter is getting nerfed on multiple fronts with no good reason and without any explanation whatsoever and, generally, when a change like this goes through, it's quietly forgotten by devs and players alike and never corrected even if it ends up being a bad idea.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Njall

[Doppelschwert]

I don't know, you sound a bit overdramatic here I think. While the casters will get new spells, the fighter will also unlock a new tier of talents, so without knowing them, it's hard to say how much they fall behind. We also don't know if 3rd level spells will actually be per encounter, and immunity to defenses will affect casters as well.

 

Fighters were not only described as defenders before the game was released but also as low maintaince, and low maintaince is the theme they still adhere to most after all of the revisions - the class is designed to be bland and passive. And in the same way the multiclass talents give the other classes access to regeneration, the fighter gets access to more utility talents.

 

Furthermore, this is a beta. They make balancing adjustments all the time to see how it affects the game, and josh especially likes to make drastic changes to values to get a better picture, he stated that numerous times in interviews.

 

Nevertheless, concerning engagement:

Assume the AI is better in the sense that they will break engagement more often and eat an engagement hit. That means the paladin with high defenses won't get to use them that often as enemies don't attack him that much, while his decreased DPS won't even hurt the enemies that much. If offense capabilities of the defender factor into the decision to disengage, then it's actually better to have a mix of good defenses and moderate DPS, which the fighter is closer to than the paladin. The change of AI might actually be more of a nerf to the paladin than to the fighter, but I don't know since I'm not part of the beta patch.

 

Personally, I think we need more information about the finalized version of 2.0 to make a better judgement call. I would argue more about specifics, but since I'm a GoG user I'm locked out of the patch beta, so I don't even know how the new AI and engagement works. Might go in the direction of your worst case scenario, might not. We'll see.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Doppelschwert

[evilcat]

"Blunt and passive gameplay" <- better do not put that on backcover.

 

I do not think it is discussion "Will Fighter be better tank than Paladin?" since that dosnt matter.

But "What will bring Fighter to the party?" and "Will that be better than summon monster item?"

 

Comparing Figher with Cipher/Wizard/Druid/Priest on fields:

- Tanking

- AoE damage

- Boss damage

- CC

- Buffs

- Debuffs

- Utility

Does not look good for our amored friend.

[Gary1986]

Furthermore, this is a beta. They make balancing adjustments all the time to see how it affects the game, and josh especially likes to make drastic changes to values to get a better picture, he stated that numerous times in interviews.

 

Well lets hope the developers have seen this thread and will sort this Defender/Wary Defender change out. I'm not against them making a change, its just this change is a little overboard.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Gary1986

[Elric Galad]

Totally agree with this view.

 

The problem is that Defender/Wary Defender were the real fighter defining features, far more than constant recovery (which is ok but a bit meh)

 

Nerfing it is like cutting rogue's sneak attack or barbarian's carnage.

 

If it happens I will sadly kick Eder out of my current parties and never take a warrior again.

 

It is sad because with the 2.0 ranger buff, all classes seemed to be finally useful.

 

Defender was an almost mandatory ability which is a problem. But if it is nerfed then figher needs a really game-changing base feature => constant recovery should be buffed (or completed by something else).

Edited August 14, 2015 by Elric Galad

[rkade8583]

If they're gonna nerf it, why not just remove the deflection bonus/penalty altogether? Just +2 engaged?

 

I'm no theorycrafter so I don't know how viable this idea is.

[Njall]

I don't know, you sound a bit overdramatic here I think. While the casters will get new spells, the fighter will also unlock a new tier of talents, so without knowing them, it's hard to say how much they fall behind. We also don't know if 3rd level spells will actually be per encounter, and immunity to defenses will affect casters as well.

 

Fighters were not only described as defenders before the game was released but also as low maintaince, and low maintaince is the theme they still adhere to most after all of the revisions - the class is designed to be bland and passive. And in the same way the multiclass talents give the other classes access to regeneration, the fighter gets access to more utility talents.

 

Furthermore, this is a beta. They make balancing adjustments all the time to see how it affects the game, and josh especially likes to make drastic changes to values to get a better picture, he stated that numerous times in interviews.

 

Nevertheless, concerning engagement:

Assume the AI is better in the sense that they will break engagement more often and eat an engagement hit. That means the paladin with high defenses won't get to use them that often as enemies don't attack him that much, while his decreased DPS won't even hurt the enemies that much. If offense capabilities of the defender factor into the decision to disengage, then it's actually better to have a mix of good defenses and moderate DPS, which the fighter is closer to than the paladin. The change of AI might actually be more of a nerf to the paladin than to the fighter, but I don't know since I'm not part of the beta patch.

 

Personally, I think we need more information about the finalized version of 2.0 to make a better judgement call. I would argue more about specifics, but since I'm a GoG user I'm locked out of the patch beta, so I don't even know how the new AI and engagement works. Might go in the direction of your worst case scenario, might not. We'll see.

 

Nope, I don't think we're being overdramatic here. Let's see what 20 deflection means for a tank: 

 

Let's assume a dedicated tank's defense is 50 points higher than the opponent's accuracy ( which is not unusual, if you stack deflection ). What you end up with is a 0.175 damage multiplier (you're grazed on a 65+ on the combat table; thus, you take no damage 65% of the time and half damage 35% of the time, for a total 17.5% average damage ) before damage reduction. If your defense drops by 20 points, you're going to take( 17.5% + 20% = 37.5% ) average damage*0.375 instead. 

That's slightly more than twice as much base damage taken. 

Now, as I said, that's before armor, but it's still a lot more damage taken, and, in PoE, reducing damage taken is pretty important for a tank, because healing, with few exceptions, only affects endurance. 

Taking twice as much damage as the next tank is pretty bad, especially if tanking is pretty much your only niche in the game. 

 

As for fighters taking multiclass talents, that's not even remotely the same thing as another class grabbing veteran defender.

As you said, fighters are, intentionally, a low manteinance class. This means that their power can be easily gauged and kept in check; the lower the complexity of a class, the easier the assesment of its power. 

Casters, however, aren't simple by design, quite the contrary, they're pretty much as complex as they get, they have a huge toolbox of skills that can adapt to pretty much any situation, and, what's more, their huge repertoire of spells allows them to find and exploit way more synergies than a simple class like the fighter.

IOW, casters are way harder to balance just by virtue of having more options; you can easily create a subpar caster, but, as long as you know what you're doing, you can also create a caster that absolutely wrecks any opposition. 

 

The fighter's durability comes from four sources: his health/endurance pool, his armor, his defenses and his class abilities.

His class abilities are (were) mostly about buffing defenses and self healing: defender took care of his defenses, constant recovery, unbroken and unbending took care of the self healing part. 

Now, anyone can access armor; sure, it costs some dps but you can still equip it ( and it's not like the fighter didn't lose anything when using armor, it's just that a full tank dealt pitiful damage anyway ); just about any caster class, with the exception of ciphers, can somehow heal themselves in a way that's at least comparable to the healing Unbending provides; also, they have their own defensive buffs.

So, if you  drop the fighter's deflection by 20 points and give the other classes 2/3rds of his self healing,  suddenly you've got a character with decent survability (compared to the fighter's) and the wide array of options of a spellcaster on one side, and a class with good survability and pretty much nothing else on the other.

 

However, if you give the fighter a multiclass talent, you don't get a character with good survability and a decent amount of options, you get a fighter with a magic missile.