Overview: New Attribute values in the 2.0 beta

[Tomice]

Hi! I decided to post this as overview for those not having access to the beta. It is one of the more important changes IMHO, and deserves some extra attention. I know there is a thread about the perception change, but it was created before the beta and contains quite a bit of speculation. Besides, constitution has been buffed, too.

 

 

Looking at this, we see the following:

- Perception is a way more offensive stat now, trading it's former deflection bonus for accuracy.

- Constitution got buffed from 3% to 5% HP per point

- We now have 4 clearly offensive stats instead of 3 before

Edited August 8, 2015 by Tomice

[gkathellar]

- Constitution got buffed from 3% to 5% HP per point

 

Not that it won't help, but I kinda resent that they buffed Con in the most boring way possible.

[Luckmann]

Intellect is still a consolidated caster stat, which is terrible. Perception has no defensive purpose at all, which is terrible. Resolve is still largely useless to everyone.

The changes just seems to reinforce issues without solving any of it. 10/10 could not have envisioned a less effective fix.

 

 

- Constitution got buffed from 3% to 5% HP per point

 

Not that it won't help, but I kinda resent that they buffed Con in the most boring way possible.

 

 

It still won't help - it still benefits the classes that doesn't need it (maybe even overly much, now) while the ones that do need it or may want it doesn't get enough. The dicotomy is still there and the relatively small difference has been turned into a gulf. So not only is it boring, it's downright bad.

[limaxophobiacq]

I think the changes are quite good, especially with stopping 20 per 20 res tanks from stacking Deflection quite so ridiculously.

 

I don't know if 'offensive' really describes any attribute except Perception really, Might can be buffed on a priest simply for heals while dex and int are good casting lots of buffs with large AoEs and durations.

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Tomice]

My thoughts:

 

If we want to create a pure tank, we can still dump almost all points in CON+RES. The new system again doesn't encourage tank build variety - I had initially hoped that some spare points would now have to go to offensive attributes.

As it is now, tanks should still take RES first. PER got a bit less interesting and CON a bit more. Tanks still never should take MIG or INT, and PER will always trump DEX.

 

DPS chars now have to choose more carefully. MIG, DEX, INT and PER now all increase damage in certain way, and we can't max them all.

PER is a good choice for creating DPS chars without maxed MIG (great if you want to roleplay nimble, diminutive characters that shouldn't push over walls in scripted events).

 

For crowd control and debuffing, PER will probably be key alongside INT.

 

 

 

Questions to answer:

 

Is there any viable build with low PER now?

WIll CON be an option now for any char apart from pure tanks?

Is MIG still good enough for anyone besides pure DPS? Won't we drop it on any char that sometimes casts spells without damage?

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong, the changes improve a lot, but IMO we're still far away from having a real choice.

Tanks should still max RES, PER and CON and dump all else.

DPS and CC should max PER now, CON should still be kept low. Between the other four it's an interesting choice now.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Tomice

[limaxophobiacq]

 

 

Is there any chance that we'll build any char with low perception? Or is it must have for anyone?

 

 

Priest could do it, max might/dex/int for heals and buffs and let other people worry about actually having to beat defences.

[limaxophobiacq]

Intellect is still a consolidated caster stat, which is terrible. Perception has no defensive purpose at all, which is terrible. Resolve is still largely useless to everyone.

 

 

Why are these things terrible?

 

I mean in DnD only 1 stat for each class affects casting at all, while in Pillars other stats have considerable effect even though you will probably always want some Int on a caster. Spell damage, spell accuracy, and casting speed can all be more important than AoE and Duration depending on what spells you are casting and who you're casting them at. Single-target damage spells aren't even affected by Int at all while Might/Dex/Per all matter.

 

Resolve is the only Deflection stat left, I can't see how a Paladin, Fighter, or Chanter wouldn't want it as high as possible.

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[gkathellar]

I mean in DnD only 1 stat for each class affects casting at all,

Things could be even worse =/= things are good.

 

Resolve is the only Deflection stat left, I can't see how a Paladin, Fighter, or Chanter wouldn't want it as high as possible.

 

Because fighters and chanters aren't at their best as pure tanks, and pure tanks in general just took a beating? Hell, even before the change, I'd come around to the view that pure tanks are a waste of space.

 

Increasingly, I feel as though Deflection itself is the problem. I don't know, why do games with the F/R/W defensive paradigm keep doing this? It's like, SW: Saga Edition tested the "static defenses, rolled attacks" concept without AC, and it worked, so everyone's response was to put AC back in.

Edited August 8, 2015 by gkathellar

[limaxophobiacq]

 

I mean in DnD only 1 stat for each class affects casting at all,

Things could be even worse =/= things are good.

 

 

Sure, but likewise, 'things aren't perfect' =/= 'things are terrible'.

[Tomice]

I'm still can't determine how PER compares to INT regarding damage increase? Does anyone have some good calculations/examples?

(for the sake of balance, I hope it's worse, since PER affects non-damage actions, too!)

[limaxophobiacq]

I'm still can't determine how PER compares to INT regarding damage increase? Does anyone have some good calculations/examples?

(for the sake of balance, I hope it's worse, since PER affects non-damage actions, too!)

 

For damage over time Int (and might) are pretty much guaranteed to be a good deal more effective if I remember the gist of the calculations someone did for might vs. accuracy during the beta (when accuracy was tied to Dex) correctly.

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[Madscientist]

In my first playthrough, my char was a paladin tank with max defense. No enemy could touch him. He blocked the path and all others attacked from the distance.

 

With the new system, the chance to hit is up tp 20% higher (for both you and the enemy). Your accurancy will go up and your deflection down because of the perception change. Tanks will have a harder time. Damage done (both you and enemy) will go up. 

 

I will continue to play with a full party with one tank and the rest will do damage or CC. One of the other chars will be used as off tank.

 

I assume that most enemies do not have dumb stats and enemies will still attack the tank.

I also assume that the stats of chars/creatures stay the same.

 

If they change the stats of all creatures, all of my guesses are useless.

[Luckmann]

 

Intellect is still a consolidated caster stat, which is terrible. Perception has no defensive purpose at all, which is terrible. Resolve is still largely useless to everyone.

 

Why are these things terrible?

 

[...]

 

 

Because it creates readily apparent pump or dump stats for entire roles, far beyond that even of class (which was always an issue in D&D, but that is an entirely different system that simply does not allow for the way PoE should be balanced).

 

Resolve is the only Deflection stat left, I can't see how a Paladin, Fighter, or Chanter wouldn't want it as high as possible.

No, what you're saying is that no Tank wouldn't want it as high as possible. Which is true. For absolutely everyone else, it is a dump stat, including non-Tank Fighters, Paladins or Chanters.

 

That's why it's terrible, and it's also why Intellect as a consolidated caster stat is terrible, because you'll never consider making a caster without maxed Intellect - why would you? - or vary it's spreads. A spellcaster with high resolve? Hah! Yeah, right. This isn't going to be anything other than Muscle Wizards: Part Two.

 

At least now it's possible to do a Perceptive Wizard, but apparently tanks suddenly became myopic.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[evilcat]

OP could add Heal increase for Might as utylity.

 

IMHO too much complaining. The change with Perception and Constitucion is generally good.

+ Less stacking deflection which frees 7 points for something else.

+ Constitucion buff hurts dump con more which is good. 

+ Perception as stat for crit builds, or CC spec.

 

Generally new split is as good as stat bonuses could be.

 

In theory there could also be a change when inteligence gives bonus to crit multiplier (you know when it hurts). But maybe that would make int too good or something.

Edited August 8, 2015 by evilcat

[gkathellar]

But maybe that would make int too good or something.

 

No kidding?

[limaxophobiacq]

 

 

Intellect is still a consolidated caster stat, which is terrible. Perception has no defensive purpose at all, which is terrible. Resolve is still largely useless to everyone.

 

Why are these things terrible?

 

[...]

 

 

Because it creates readily apparent pump or dump stats for entire roles

 

 

I don't really see this as a problem. I don't really see how it can be avoided without having every stat affect every kind of ability in the game for every class, at which point why care about how you alocate attribute points at all since whatever abilities you use all of them are always equally usefull?

 

Sure every caster will want high int (though I think druids can get away with 'only' 15-16 or so since they're more DPS focused and some of their spells have huge areas and very long durations anyway), but you then get to choose your stats depending on how much you want to focus on damage vs CC by balancing might and perception, or if you want to focus on spells like heals and buffs that dont go up vs resistance and really dump perception, and/or you can focus Dex to cast more spells faster while sacrificing an attribute you don't feel you need.

 

 

 the way PoE should be balanced

 

I'm sorry I must have missed the big meeting were it was decided how the game should be balanced, care to enlighten me on what was concluded?

Edited August 8, 2015 by limaxophobiacq

[View619]

A player from the beta period (Matt516, iirc) put together a document on proposed balance changes to attributes. While it was an interesting read, the final decision will always fall to the developers who have the complete picture regarding what direction they want for their game.

[Tomice]

Here's my first serious attempt in creating a new char in 2.0, a female elven cipher with a bow (*) Thoughts:

 

Intelligence is still very important and probably should be maxed in most cases.

Perception seems the second most important, to reliably hit enemies with your CC spells and to generate focus reliably.

Dexterity trumps might because it speeds up all actions, reducing the delay between initial focus building and spell casting.

 

Resolve still seems more important than constitution. Your overall durability will be very low anyway, a few more hit points won't change that much. I dropped CON to 3 before and will probably keep doing so. It worked well before, since few enemies attack your ranged chars anyway. And you can keep a few aces up your sleeve in terms of scrolls and items for those tight moments. The higher CON penalty is offset by the increase in cipher and mage HP in 1.05, BTW.

 

My build suggestion:

MIG 14

DEX 16

PER 16

INT 19

CON 3

RES 10

 

This may not be strictly optimal, but shifting a few points from PER to DEX and MIG gives you more dialogue options and makes the char look more natural. I consider her a noble city girl from Old Vailia, not being used to getting hit/enduring pain, avoiding melee, not being overly brutal and deadly, but both mentally and physically agile. She's basically immune to AOE effects and will attacks, but very weak against fortitude- and deflection-based attacks. Not being in melee makes this a lot more sufferable, however.

 

Not sure if shifting points from MIG to RES would be better? I'd like to, for immersion reasons, but I guess it would make the char significantly weaker. Suggestions welcome!

 

 

 

 

 

Opinion:

I like the new perception a lot, this char is way more believable than in 1.03 with maxed might (She is neither supposed to be physically strong nor mentally brutal/intimidating).

High INT and PER also fit a group leader very well, improving the immersion in dialogues (IMHO).

 

One thing I just realized is that we'll never really get rid of dump stats in this game - simple because there's no minimum requiremets or sweet spots in this game. In BG, you needed a bit of strenght to carry heavier items. There were also points where dropping a stat further had really bad consequences and harsh penalties, while it's way more linear here.

 

 

 

 

 

(*) This was my overall favorite character since release because a cipher fits the story so well - cipher and watcher are more or less the same thing. Haven't played any since the recent nerf, though. She is female because there are no romances anyway and imagining a little crush makes it more easy for me to believe that Aloth and Eder follow her into hell's pits without even knowing her.