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If PER governs accuracy in 1.07 it will turn from "tank only" stat to "everyone but tanks" stat. I don't see how that's any better. I would max PER on EVERY character to the point I would pick +1 per as a standard background, especially spellcasters, since accuracy is the most important stat for CC. The standard 2nd line party dps build would have minimal RES and CON with all other points in PER, MIG, DEX and INT, 1 of these stats a few points short of max depending on the class. Tanks would now go for max RES and CON + whatever. Solo builds would be a bit different although max PER spellcasters would become standard issue, probably at the cost of some DEX & RES. Also, PER would become a dumpstat for pure tanks.

This man speaka da truth.

 

Ofc it would be fun with some changes but there would be issues

Edited by Tennisgolfboll
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I don't see how, RES can be "slightly" buffed, I don't think devs are going to introduce any non integer values, so it's either 1 or 2 deflection per point. At 2 it would indeed be OP but still a dump stat for ranged dps.

 

Got my numbers mixed up with that one. Indeed +2 Deflection on RES is potentially too much and no change leaves it a tad on the dumpable side.

 

Oh well. We'll see what 1.07 brings to the table.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses

 

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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping, they would stop the dumping at 8 and be done with it. So i don't really understand the "neccessity" of PER getting better or "every stat should be important". It won't happen, because the only way to achieve this, is by making all stats too similar too each other (and RES and PER already are, which i guess that's what cuased on how accuracy on a stat would affect the game and the need to change it). 

 

I would actually change PER to accuracy to  truly make every stat different, then i would cap the dumping to 8, that way there is no way you MAX all the good stats and builds would flow organically depending in which stats are more important to the build you would like to play, instead of just dump and get almost 4 stats maxed.

Edited by Yipikayey
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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping, they would stop the dumping at 8 and be done with it. So i don't really understand the "necessity" of PER getting better or "every stat should be important". It won't happen, because the only way to achieve this, is by making all stats too similar too each other (and RES and PER already are, which i guess that's what caused on how accuracy on a stat would affect the game and the need to change it). 

 

I would actually change PER to accuracy to  truly make every stat different, then i would cap the dumping to 8, that way there is no way you MAX all the good stats and builds would flow organically depending in which stats are more important to the build you would like to play, instead of just dump and get almost 4 stats maxed.

 

I think that there's some value to having every attribute having some value.  What that does is force people to make hard decisions about how to balance what they value when building a character.  You can see how little CON is valued by how often people dump it so low.

 

Also, I think that having a higher floor value for stats would be good for this as well, because right now, for some builds/classes, you can dump INT and CON to very low values with little to no consequences and give yourself enough stat points to have very high to maxed out values in the other 4 attributes.  IMHO, this is not a good thing from a number of perspectives.

 

If you think that the only way to have fun in a game is to have maxed out stats across the board, where's the challenge?  What's the point of playing?  And so forth?  (Oh, I suppose that the calculus is a little different for PotD, given that the monsters' stats have been greatly buffed.)    It seems to me that the min value for all stats should be around 8 so that you can't really gain all that many additional points for your build, so that THEN you have to make a real decision about which attributes you want at max, and which ones you can made do with less than the max.  

 

And for the people who claim that this would make all builds the same, I disagree.   They're already pretty much all the same for extreme min-maxers.  If INT doesn't matter much for a class, they dump CON and INT and max out the other four as much as possible.  For other class builds, it's similar just with slightly different dump stats.

 

And for people playing PotD maybe just keep the same floor attribute values, but give them maybe 4 more stat points to spend.  But for the other modes, have the same number of build points, but with floor attribute values of 8 across the board.

 

--

 

Back to having all stats matter, I think that it is important as I said above.  Otherwise, people will just see no value in putting any points in the attribute, like is done with CON right now.  

 

One thing that could be done to buff CON right now would be to remove the Fort save bonuses from Might and double the Fort save bonuses to CON.  Will that make a huge difference?  Not likely, but it would be a step in the right direction, I think.

 

Another thing that could be done would be to have a CON based bonus that affects how effective healing spells are when cast ON that person.  People with above average CONs would get more END back when a healing spell was cast on them, while characters with below average CONs would get less END back from those same healing spells.

 

 

 

Anyways, that's all for now...

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Another thing that could be done would be to have a CON based bonus that affects how effective healing spells are when cast ON that person.  People with above average CONs would get more END back when a healing spell was cast on them, while characters with below average CONs would get less END back from those same healing spells.

 

 

Now, as much as I'm still not convinced that changing stats around is necessary in the first place, I do think this is a very interesting idea. If the developers are determined to devote time to this, Crucis' idea is worth looking at. Though personally, I'd be much more excited about the return of auto attack and fixing my Moon Godlike's Silver Tide so it heals me and not just everyone else. 

 

PS in regards to something that was said in another thread, again if the developers are determined to devote time to this that they could be spending fixing bugs, also adding in a free respec would be about not feeling cheap using the console. I know it can be done, but it feels like cheating, and I've avoided using it so far. Thank you.

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Another thing that could be done would be to have a CON based bonus that affects how effective healing spells are when cast ON that person.  People with above average CONs would get more END back when a healing spell was cast on them, while characters with below average CONs would get less END back from those same healing spells.

 

 

 

Now, as much as I'm still not convinced that changing stats around is necessary in the first place, I do think this is a very interesting idea. If the developers are determined to devote time to this, Crucis' idea is worth looking at. Though personally, I'd be much more excited about the return of auto attack and fixing my Moon Godlike's Silver Tide so it heals me and not just everyone else. 

 

PS in regards to something that was said in another thread, again if the developers are determined to devote time to this that they could be spending fixing bugs, also adding in a free respec would be about not feeling cheap using the console. I know it can be done, but it feels like cheating, and I've avoided using it so far. Thank you.

I don't even know why MI affects fort to begin with its already a super good stat.
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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping

 

I don't think that preventing min/maxing altogether is, or even should be, the design goal of the attribute system.

 

IIRC, the main design goal was "no dump stats"/"no bad builds", which is a noble goal in itself. If a stat is there, it should be interesting and desirable. If it isn't, as Crucis said, why is it even there? So I can dump it to gain more points at CC? Then just drop the stat and give me the extra points from the get-go instead of having me run around with a character that makes no roleplaying sense for the sake of combat mechanics (how do you even picture a MIG 18 / CON 3 character in your mind?)

 

I do not think min/maxing is a plague to be eradicated; it is a perfectly viable playing style. What it is not—and should never be—is the norm. Min/maxing should not be the best way to build your characters and play the game, as it is right now in PoE. It should be hazardous. A score of 3 in CON is barely above the threshold for survival; enemies should be able to one-shot you just looking at you sideways. Likewise, if your RES score is 3 your Deflection should be so low that a mild gust of wind could knock you prone. The penalty from dumping a stat should roughly be equal in magnitude to the benefits from maxing another. That would force you to make hard decisions on how to distribute your points at CC, and jack-of-all-trades characters would be rewarded.

 

Last but not least—min/maxing is a powergaming activity, and powergaming is not the norm or the way a game is meant to be played. There is nothing wrong with it, but the game should not be balanced against it, so it is not surprising that the game's very easy when you min/max and powergame—it is balanced against jack-of-all-trades builds like the joinable NPCs.

 

 

As a side note, imho the attribute system should not be tailored to the shortcomings of other systems, such as AI and encounter design. Each system should be optimized on its own. To say that the attribute system should be X because encounter design is such that Y would ensue is poor design (it implies that Y should not or could not be changed even if it's clearly sub par.) If you are willingly and knowingly exploiting AI's poor targeting clauses, you are powergaming. Again, nothing wrong with it but you can't complain that the game is too easy (though complaining that AI should be smarter and encounter design should be better is a perfectly valid argument, and one I support.)

Edited by AndreaColombo
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"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses

 

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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping

 

I don't think that preventing min/maxing altogether is, or even should be, the design goal of the attribute system.

 

IIRC, the main design goal was "no dump stats"/"no bad builds", which is a noble goal in itself. If a stat is there, it should be interesting and desirable. If it isn't, as Crucis said, why is it even there? So I can dump it to gain more points at CC? Then just drop the stat and give me the extra points from the get-go instead of having me run around with a character that makes no roleplaying sense for the sake of combat mechanics (how do you even picture a MIG 18 / CON 3 character in your mind?)

 

I do not think min/maxing is a plague to be eradicated; it is a perfectly viable playing style. What it is not—and should never be—is the norm. Min/maxing should not be the best way to build your characters and play the game, as it is right now in PoE. It should be hazardous. A score of 3 in CON is barely above the threshold for survival; enemies should be able to one-shot you just looking at you sideways. Likewise, if your RES score is 3 your Deflection should be so low that a mild gust of wind could knock you prone. The penalty from dumping a stat should roughly be equal in magnitude to the benefits from maxing another. That would force you to make hard decisions on how to distribute your points at CC, and jack-of-all-trades characters would be rewarded.

 

Last but not least—min/maxing is a powergaming activity, and powergaming is not the norm or the way a game is meant to be played. There is nothing wrong with it, but the game should not be balanced against it, so it is not surprising that the game's very easy when you min/max and powergame—it is balanced against jack-of-all-trades builds like the joinable NPCs.

 

 

As a side note, imho the attribute system should not be tailored to the shortcomings of other systems, such as AI and encounter design. Each system should be optimized on its own. To say that the attribute system should be X because encounter design is such that Y would ensue is poor design (it implies that Y should not or could not be changed even if it's clearly sub par.) If you are willingly and knowingly exploiting AI's poor targeting clauses, you are powergaming. Again, nothing wrong with it but you can't complain that the game is too easy (though complaining that AI should be smarter and encounter design should be better is a perfectly valid argument, and one I support.)

 

Here comes to play what I complained about before:

Wth do monsters do standard damage on Potd? And they don't only do the same damage as on hard/normal but also as on easy.

I know raising difficulty solely by damage is bad, but to completely leave damage out of the difficulty is just bad design.

While better AI remains desirable, PoTD would be much better if monsters did more damage than on other difficulties.

Thats one thing I liked about Skyrim, even though it wasn't a tactical game, the damage calculation was good. 4x monster damage on hardest and lower player damage to boot. (Last part is unneccessary but still considerable in my eyes.)

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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping

I don't think that preventing min/maxing altogether is, or even should be, the design goal of the attribute system.

 

IIRC, the main design goal was "no dump stats"/"no bad builds", which is a noble goal in itself. If a stat is there, it should be interesting and desirable. If it isn't, as Crucis said, why is it even there? So I can dump it to gain more points at CC? Then just drop the stat and give me the extra points from the get-go instead of having me run around with a character that makes no roleplaying sense for the sake of combat mechanics (how do you even picture a MIG 18 / CON 3 character in your mind?)

 

I do not think min/maxing is a plague to be eradicated; it is a perfectly viable playing style. What it is not—and should never be—is the norm. Min/maxing should not be the best way to build your characters and play the game, as it is right now in PoE. It should be hazardous. A score of 3 in CON is barely above the threshold for survival; enemies should be able to one-shot you just looking at you sideways. Likewise, if your RES score is 3 your Deflection should be so low that a mild gust of wind could knock you prone. The penalty from dumping a stat should roughly be equal in magnitude to the benefits from maxing another. That would force you to make hard decisions on how to distribute your points at CC, and jack-of-all-trades characters would be rewarded.

 

Last but not least—min/maxing is a powergaming activity, and powergaming is not the norm or the way a game is meant to be played. There is nothing wrong with it, but the game should not be balanced against it, so it is not surprising that the game's very easy when you min/max and powergame—it is balanced against jack-of-all-trades builds like the joinable NPCs.

 

 

As a side note, imho the attribute system should not be tailored to the shortcomings of other systems, such as AI and encounter design. Each system should be optimized on its own. To say that the attribute system should be X because encounter design is such that Y would ensue is poor design (it implies that Y should not or could not be changed even if it's clearly sub par.) If you are willingly and knowingly exploiting AI's poor targeting clauses, you are powergaming. Again, nothing wrong with it but you can't complain that the game is too easy (though complaining that AI should be smarter and encounter design should be better is a perfectly valid argument, and one I support.)

Here comes to play what I complained about before:

Wth do monsters do standard damage on Potd? And they don't only do the same damage as on hard/normal but also as on easy.

I know raising difficulty solely by damage is bad, but to completely leave damage out of the difficulty is just bad design.

While better AI remains desirable, PoTD would be much better if monsters did more damage than on other difficulties.

Thats one thing I liked about Skyrim, even though it wasn't a tactical game, the damage calculation was good. 4x monster damage on hardest and lower player damage to boot. (Last part is unneccessary but still considerable in my eyes.)

I agree. I did a whole topic about how easy in this game is at most 10% easier than hard. A few thrash mobs more on hard than on easy, that is it.

Terrible balance

 

Could have just done easy the same as normal and take half damage, and hard take double damage. Much better

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If they really wanted people to not min/max with extreme dumping

 

I don't think that preventing min/maxing altogether is, or even should be, the design goal of the attribute system.

 

That's what i tried to imply from their intention, because it would be really simple if they really wanted to.

Edited by Yipikayey
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The thing everyone is missing about the role of perception is that the difficulty of Pillars of Eternity as you go through the game isn't static, the beginning is FAR harder than the mid/endgame, and in the beginning literally anything related to accuracy is at a massive premium because it's flat out extremely hard to hit without the level bonuses.  

 

 

For PotD, what is realistically the only challenging difficulty for anyone attempting to powergame, you'd jack perception to the max.  I mean, shades.  'nuff said.  Surviving till you hit defiance bay is the name of the game.  

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I

The thing everyone is missing about the role of perception is that the difficulty of Pillars of Eternity as you go through the game isn't static, the beginning is FAR harder than the mid/endgame, and in the beginning literally anything related to accuracy is at a massive premium because it's flat out extremely hard to hit without the level bonuses.  

 

 

For PotD, what is realistically the only challenging difficulty for anyone attempting to powergame, you'd jack perception to the max.  I mean, shades.  'nuff said.  Surviving till you hit defiance bay is the name of the game.

 

I disagree. For me that was only true n my first playthrough. You don't even need to kill a single shade before DB.
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I

The thing everyone is missing about the role of perception is that the difficulty of Pillars of Eternity as you go through the game isn't static, the beginning is FAR harder than the mid/endgame, and in the beginning literally anything related to accuracy is at a massive premium because it's flat out extremely hard to hit without the level bonuses.  

 

 

For PotD, what is realistically the only challenging difficulty for anyone attempting to powergame, you'd jack perception to the max.  I mean, shades.  'nuff said.  Surviving till you hit defiance bay is the name of the game.

I disagree. For me that was only true n my first playthrough. You don't even need to kill a single shade before DB.

 

aren't there Phantom and Shades in the Throne room in Caed Nua?

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I

The thing everyone is missing about the role of perception is that the difficulty of Pillars of Eternity as you go through the game isn't static, the beginning is FAR harder than the mid/endgame, and in the beginning literally anything related to accuracy is at a massive premium because it's flat out extremely hard to hit without the level bonuses.  

 

 

For PotD, what is realistically the only challenging difficulty for anyone attempting to powergame, you'd jack perception to the max.  I mean, shades.  'nuff said.  Surviving till you hit defiance bay is the name of the game.

I disagree. For me that was only true n my first playthrough. You don't even need to kill a single shade before DB.

 

aren't there Phantom and Shades in the Throne room in Caed Nua?

 

Only Phantoms. And that fight is super easy.

(Edit: And regular shadows)

Edited by Raven Darkholme
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  • 2 weeks later...

Hopefully it takes a massive commitment to really increase it a lot. It's just going to be the go to Stat for every spec except tanks. Maybe even tanks.

Have gun will travel.

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Well, if it's coming with the expansion, that would be a logical time to give a free respec if they do that. After all, they're totally changing abilities and talents, so it would only be fair. But, aside from this concern of mine, I do like some of the changes and content they have shown.

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Hopefully it takes a massive commitment to really increase it a lot. It's just going to be the go to Stat for every spec except tanks. Maybe even tanks.

 

Seems to be 1 PER = 1 Acc in the video. Definitely what I'd consider a must have for all DPSers, especially casters.

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Hopefully it takes a massive commitment to really increase it a lot. It's just going to be the go to Stat for every spec except tanks. Maybe even tanks.

 

Seems to be 1 PER = 1 Acc in the video. Definitely what I'd consider a must have for all DPSers, especially casters.

 

Ya I am not sure.  Really I am not a complainer at all and I know these guys are pros and know what they are doing.  Just seems like everyone wants +8accuracy so a lot of builds will look the same.

Have gun will travel.

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Well, if it's coming with the expansion, that would be a logical time to give a free respec if they do that. After all, they're totally changing abilities and talents, so it would only be fair. But, aside from this concern of mine, I do like some of the changes and content they have shown.

You got any links Nobear?  Cant seem to get any details just general stuff.

Have gun will travel.

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the closest thing we ever got to a confirmation regarding the perception changes for 1.07 (now 2.0?) which we assumed were coming based on a bug, were the following:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80214-106-hotfix-live-on-steam/?p=1703332

 

josh answered a few questions about respec and perception today in the 2.0 announcement thread:

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/80445-update-99-announcing-the-expansion-and-update-20/

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I mentioned it in the other thread but for those who missed it: The IE mod allows respec'ing without disabling achievements. Just in case the devs couldn't offer the option for whatever reason.

"Time is not your enemy. Forever is."

— Fall-From-Grace, Planescape: Torment

"It's the questions we can't answer that teach us the most. They teach us how to think. If you give a man an answer, all he gains is a little fact. But give him a question, and he'll look for his own answers."

— Kvothe, The Wise Man's Fears

My Deadfire mods: Brilliant Mod | Faster Deadfire | Deadfire Unnerfed | Helwalker Rekke | Permanent Per-Rest Bonuses

 

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I mentioned it in the other thread but for those who missed it: The IE mod allows respec'ing without disabling achievements. Just in case the devs couldn't offer the option for whatever reason.

the ie mod is 3rd party and has resulted in some quirks in the past.  am understanding why some folks might avoid the ie mod, but it is good that you bring the mod up as an alternative, 'cause baring a developer option, it may be the only alternative available short o' restarting the game. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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I mentioned it in the other thread but for those who missed it: The IE mod allows respec'ing without disabling achievements. Just in case the devs couldn't offer the option for whatever reason.

the ie mod is 3rd party and has resulted in some quirks in the past.  am understanding why some folks might avoid the ie mod, but it is good that you bring the mod up as an alternative, 'cause baring a developer option, it may be the only alternative available short o' restarting the game.

 

 

Right. Thanks Andrea, I'm aware of the mod. I was trying to pinpoint why I wanted to avoid the mod (or any mod), and I admit it may be a bit irrational, but part of it is what Gromnir mentioned. If there are bugs or issues with the main game, at least it's supported and the developers can address those issues.

 

As is, I keep restarting even though I'm aware of the mod. Funny enough, I'm still enjoying Act 1 and Defiance Bay LOL. Part of it is that it just sits much better with me to do everything legit. I think this game appeals to people with certain OCD tendencies :p.

 

So, knowing me, if they didn't include a respec I'd probably restart rather than install the mod. It's not like restarting once more would make the most tremendous difference to me in the long run, I'd just prefer the legit respec solution if they can pull it off.

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