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Monte Carlo

Oby, for where art thou?

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In the US we prefer to spread our propaganda the old fashioned way, through high quality movies and popular video games.   thumbsup.gif

 

I know you're joking, but... 

 

*cough* high quality *cough*

 

 

In all seriousness, I don't think this is meant as an actual J'accuse by Monte, just continuing the old in-joke about alts, trolls and paid shills here.

 

The article itself is hardly news at this point, though. We've had reports of this before, and as far as what governments do on the internets it's rather tame (not to mention lame). I'd like to know what the effectiveness of these groups is, as their operatives are so strident that I doubt they actually succeed in convincing anyone (if you've read the comments section of a news site you know what I'm talking about) that isn't already a member of the fan club.

 

However, I do find it odd that peeps are seemingly more interested in what the KGB FSB Kremlin's community manager does than what the government they may have voted into office is doing. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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However, I do find it odd that peeps are seemingly more interested in what the KGB FSB Kremlin's community manager does than what the government they may have voted into office is doing. Oh well. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

I think their most likely representative would be Bruce, and he's pleasant enough most of the time. :p

Edited by Bartimaeus

How many fingers am I holding up, Winston?
 
How to Totally Remove Ignored Users from Your Obsidian Forums.

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Oh, no, no. I didn't mean that sort of thing. As I said, and evidenced by how seriously both oby and Bruce are taken by people here, I'd wager the effectiveness of gov't plants is fairly limited.

 

I meant more stuff like the leaks about GCHQ's cyberwarfare and propaganda tools.

 

(I know I sound like ****ing broken record, what can I say, we all need a schtick)


- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Either you haven't been reading the articles thoroughly or you chaps just aren't very bright. ;)

 

The purpose of this new propaganda is emphatically NOT to convince you of a given viewpoint.

 

As we've discussed already on this very forum, convincing someone to change stance is very very difficult. So what these fellahs do is disrupt and undermine the willingness to think about and achieve consensus on doing something about what the Kremlin is doing. It is gloriously non-democratic. It's about keeping us bickering about our own issues, while they quietly and profitably go about their business.

 

So, sure, if you like we can talk about the NSA and GCHQ instead. Just so long as we know that's precisely what we are supposed to do, and admit that our source of information on the subject is _right now_ living in Russia, protected by the Kremlin.


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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I've been here for ten years. And you're just now discovering that I'm not very bright? :p

 

Anyway, regarding your take on the actual purpose of paid shills, what do you suggest the consensus on doing something about the Kremlin should be, and why is it up to us to do something?  Historically, getting involved in other countries' internal affairs hasn't worked very well in general, and has gone especially badly in the case of Russia.

 

Yeah, we (well, you, not me in particular) should be talking more about GCHQ because you are a UK citizen and not a Russian citizen. You are partly responsible for what the UK government does with your tax money, much like I'm partly responsible for the rampant corruption and mismanagement of the Spanish state. They are part of our obligations as citizens of so-called democratic societies, since you brought it up. Russia is neither democratic nor our country. In short, if instead of Monte it had been Fighter posting this, I'd probably have skipped the GCHQ reference.

 

Oh, and I'm sure Snowden would prefer to be at home in the US, were it not for the trumped-up treason charges he'd face if he went back. Track record on whistleblower protection isn't exactly impressive over there, mate.

Edited by 213374U
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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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Pretty much every military intelligence in the world has handbooks such as this:  http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/546409/posts

 

We can always dig up our friend Yuri Bezmenov:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOKtcQbP2b4

 

There are more lectures about from the guy on youtube if you bother to search. 

 

Finally, in case you guys haven't noticed, social interaction has moved to the internet already. So maybe you should ask yourself on why wouldn't intelligence agencies around the world try to influence agendas, opinions and the flow of information in their benefit.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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So, sure, if you like we can talk about the NSA and GCHQ instead. Just so long as we know that's precisely what we are supposed to do, and admit that our source of information on the subject is _right now_ living in Russia, protected by the Kremlin.

 

The purpose of the equivalent US and UK (and Israeli, and Chinese, and everyone else's including commercial astroturfing) programmes- not the 5 eyes/ XKEYSCORE etc stuff, that's for monitoring not for manipulating, the manipulation stuff is the software that allows one person to run 100s of social media accounts seamlessly- are exactly the same as the Russian ones. It's to manipulate the narrative to their best interests, and in state actor's case specifically the security apparatus's (if you're lucky; if not it's the people in power's, per our little NSA branchlet trying to get dirt on people to get one of our politicians a job) best interests not actually the country's, it's not any noble goal of informing the public or battling the infernal hordes of Chinese/ Russian/ whoever 'trolls' putting out obvious lies and calumny, that's PR every bit as much as their other output.

 

As for Snowden, if centuries of diplomatic precedent had not been bent over a table and given a good hard rogering when forcing down Morales' plane on the rumour that Snowden was on it then he almost certainly wouldn't be in Russia at this point, let alone if certain elements of the US establishment and intelligence community didn't cause a world shortage of haemorrhoid cream every time his name was mentioned.

 

Funniest part being that it was supposedly Julian Assange who had started the rumour about Snowden being on the plane.

 

Impugning Snowden's character in that way is utterly circular, and ridiculous at best since he obviously has no choice in the matter and wouldn't have been in Russia- at all, let alone still- sans the butthurt reactions. If Obama wants someone to blame for Snowden being in Russia, well, mirrors have been a thing for a fair while now.

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Snowden is either a paranoid guy with no place to go or he was a CIA plant placed in NSA in order to mess with their operations. From what i gather, the CIA and the NSA do not like each other. In my humble opinion of course.


"Some men see things as they are and say why?"
"I dream things that never were and say why not?"
- George Bernard Shaw

"Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man."
- Friedrich Nietzsche

 

"The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it."

- Some guy 

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I've been here for ten years. And you're just now discovering that I'm not very bright? :p

 

Anyway, regarding your take on the actual purpose of paid shills, what do you suggest the consensus on doing something about the Kremlin should be, and why is it up to us to do something?  Historically, getting involved in other countries' internal affairs hasn't worked very well in general, and has gone especially badly in the case of Russia.

 

Yeah, we (well, you, not me in particular) should be talking more about GCHQ because you are a UK citizen and not a Russian citizen. You are partly responsible for what the UK government does with your tax money, much like I'm partly responsible for the rampant corruption and mismanagement of the Spanish state. They are part of our obligations as citizens of so-called democratic societies, since you brought it up. Russia is neither democratic nor our country. In short, if instead of Monte it had been Fighter posting this, I'd probably have skipped the GCHQ reference.

 

Oh, and I'm sure Snowden would prefer to be at home in the US, were it not for the trumped-up treason charges he'd face if he went back. Track record on whistleblower protection isn't exactly impressive over there, mate.

 

It's perfectly true that a discussion is warranted about GCHQ et al. But note how merely mentioning them has derailed any debate about what the Russians are doing?

 

All these electronic posts, this trolling, is directly covering for live rounds arcing over the East of Ukraine as we speak. Those live rounds may presage similar action against a NATO member state nearer home. Which means my country would be legally obliged to go to war. My friends would be packed up in crap-smelling lorries and bussed out to die.

 

So I think you'll understand now why I think the Russian thing is more pertinent.


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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There's as much actual chance of Putin attacking NATO as there was of Saddam hitting London with an anthrax packed Scud in 45 minutes, though he's obviously not willing to put up with NATO asterisking about in his back yard any more and probably wishes that abject moron Yeltsin had drunk himself to death a decade earlier.

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It's perfectly true that a discussion is warranted about GCHQ et al. But note how merely mentioning them has derailed any debate about what the Russians are doing?

 

All these electronic posts, this trolling, is directly covering for live rounds arcing over the East of Ukraine as we speak. Those live rounds may presage similar action against a NATO member state nearer home. Which means my country would be legally obliged to go to war. My friends would be packed up in crap-smelling lorries and bussed out to die.

 

So I think you'll understand now why I think the Russian thing is more pertinent.

Yeah, think you're being needlessly worried there.


Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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Which means my country would be legally obliged to go to war. My friends would be packed up in crap-smelling lorries and bussed out to die.

 

Your friends can easily avoid this fate by change of job or by surrender to Russians for example.

dirty-time-girl-licks-ice-cream-destruct 

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Which means my country would be legally obliged to go to war. My friends would be packed up in crap-smelling lorries and bussed out to die.

 

Your friends can easily avoid this fate by change of job or by surrender to Russians for example.

dirty-time-girl-licks-ice-cream-destruct

 

 

Hey, a Swedish Mauser! 

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I gazed at the dead, and for one dark moment I saw a banquet. 
 

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I think Oby is genuinely pro-Russian, he is no troll

 

But I doubt he is part of the Russian Internet propaganda machinery...he is far to obvious, myopic and fanatical. Remember this Russian division is suppose to be discrete and subtle

 

Oby is neither of these things :biggrin:  


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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There's as much actual chance of Putin attacking NATO as there was of Saddam hitting London with an anthrax packed Scud in 45 minutes, though he's obviously not willing to put up with NATO asterisking about in his back yard any more and probably wishes that abject moron Yeltsin had drunk himself to death a decade earlier.

 

You mean the same way Putin would never invade Ukraine, or the same way Assad didn't have WMD?


"It wasn't lies. It was just... bull****"."

             -Elwood Blues

 

tarna's dead; processing... complete. Disappointed by Universe. RIP Hades/Sand/etc. Here's hoping your next alt has a harp.

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Oh, and I'm sure Snowden would prefer to be at home in the US, were it not for the trumped-up treason charges he'd face if he went back. Track record on whistleblower protection isn't exactly impressive over there, mate.

 " trumped-up terror charges "  :lol:

 

Snowden is a traitor who attempted to compromise the security of his country....he deserves to rot in jail. And surprise surprise Russia gives sanctuary to the one man who has embarrassed and created issues for the USA by publicly revealing NSA secrets

 

I dislike people like him, Greenwald and Assange because they used there personal dislike of the USA and the West to attempt to really undermine what it stands for  


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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You mean the same way Putin would never invade Ukraine, or the same way Assad didn't have WMD?

 

 

Except everyone- everyone- knew Assad had WMDs, Syria wasn't a member of the CWC until 2013. For the same reason Israel (and Pakistan/ India for that matter) ain't a member of the NPT.

 

In contrast, it was just anyone with any sense who knew what jollying about in Russia's back yard would get as reaction.

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You mean the same way Putin would never invade Ukraine, or the same way Assad didn't have WMD?

 

 

Except everyone- everyone- knew Assad had WMDs, Syria wasn't a member of the CWC until 2013. For the same reason Israel (and Pakistan/ India for that matter) ain't a member of the NPT.

 

In contrast, it was just anyone with any sense who knew what jollying about in Russia's back yard would get as reaction.

 

Nope sorry, your definition and spurious justification for "  Russia's backyard "  is every country that use to be part of the USSR

 

And no Russia doesn't have the right to do what it wants in these countries..these are sovereign states and not part of the USSR  


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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I dislike people like him, Greenwald and Assange because they used there personal dislike of the USA and the West to attempt to really undermine what it stands for

Er, how are they undermining what the West stands for (whatever that is, really) ? Seems the program Snowden exposed has a better claim to that feat.

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Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra

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" trumped-up terror charges "  laughing.gif

 

Snowden is a traitor who attempted to compromise the security of his country....he deserves to rot in jail. And surprise surprise Russia gives sanctuary to the one man who has embarrassed and created issues for the USA by publicly revealing NSA secrets

 

I dislike people like him, Greenwald and Assange because they used there personal dislike of the USA and the West to attempt to really undermine what it stands for

 

 

Wow, look at this! BruceVC once again using words he doesn't actually understand! I'm shocked.

 

Now, for what treason really is:

 

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html

 

And no, he didn't compromise the security of his country, because mass surveillance has been shown to be useless as far as "securing" anything goes. This was proven to you mathematically by Al2O3, and the FBI has admitted it as well. Wake the **** up.

 

So, no. Snowden is neither legally nor morally a traitor, no matter what dumbass pundits or, more worryingly, Congressmen and Senators keep saying.

Edited by 213374U
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- When he is best, he is a little worse than a man, and when he is worst, he is little better than a beast.

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LOL I was about to post this.

 

Not to out oby, you understand, but since it gives the troll playbook, it would presumably act as an aide memoire. :dancing:

 

Mods might get a kick out of reading this article.

 

 

This activity will rise, as a new tention appers in the world

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The people who are fine with calling Snowden a traitor and accept the NSA's* spying are to the US what tankies are to the Soviet Union.

 

*Hello NSA agent, I apologize to whichever one of you had to look at my browsing history, specifically the porn.


"Take your child murderin' god and shove his him up his own ass."-Volorun

 

"...the vote of a black redhead disabled homosexual transsexual Jew should probably be worth the same as at least a hundred white heterosexual Christians."-Rostere

 

"i can think of many women i would gladly sleep with, but not a single one that i would want as a girlfriend/wife... neither real nor fictional."-teknoman2

 

"I'm all for killing dogs in film." - algroth

 

"Iselmyr is the one who did GOMAD... Aloth is lactose intolerant" -ShadySands

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I dislike people like him, Greenwald and Assange because they used there personal dislike of the USA and the West to attempt to really undermine what it stands for

Er, how are they undermining what the West stands for (whatever that is, really) ? Seems the program Snowden exposed has a better claim to that feat.

 

 

They attempted to undermine the West in several ways, for example the diplomatic cables that Assange leaked were confidential for a reason and contained the personal views of diplomats and many were about the strategies that the USA and its allies employed in dealing with numerous issues....there were not for global consumption. And obviously Snowden worked for the NSA and when he went public he directly revealed NSA secrets. Don't kid yourself, the intentions of all 3 of these people is to undermine the USA and its allies


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

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