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So... 1.06 was "about Paladin".

 
If we assume that Obsidian listens to its community, the next update could be the other class which received the most complaints... Yes, I look at you, Ranger !


In your opinion, what could be this patch ?
 
For me it could be quite different from what they did with Paladin : boosting its abilities.
In my opinion, many of Ranger's abilities are pretty solid  and appealing : stacking accuracy abilities, stunning shots, driving flights... Some may be subpar, but any other classes has subpar abilities too.


IMO, the ranger's problems are of 2 kinds :
- Its defining trait, the pet, is not that great. Sure, it has its uses. The most complaints come from the fact that it keeps dying all the time, leading to a big malus to Ranger's abilities. The problem appears especially in boss fights and harder difficulties... exactly when you would like your party members to be the most effective !
- The other problem is that Rangers do not really have a critical purpose where they would excel : rogue is better at ranged damages, the pet itself is a weak melee and a poor off-tank. The requirement to have your pet in melee simply cancel the advantage of a ranged hitter. Currently, its "2 in 1" nature makes it a passable filler for a party, but it is hard to imagine why one would use a ranger to fullfill a given role.
 
 
The solution should be about what makes ranger unique : their pets.
 
Pets have indeed some cool traits : 
- They are infinite pools of health (something I think only melee wizard with "Infuse Vital Essence" could be :-) )
- They have 2 engagements (which makes melee ranger the class with the maximum possible engagements, equalling fighters !)
 
Pets could work as meat shields... if only it didn't trigger sadness ! (not to mention the lost abilities like staker link)
And currently, nothing is more frustrating than loosing a pet in a fight, especially due to the rarity of resurrection powers... and no second chance for your pet :-)
 
 
So, what I would find really cool :
 
- Pet overall buff, especially at high level (classic)
 
- A pet resurrection ability !!!! something like 1x per encounter (with a nice buff like "Unbroken". A short duration and important buff to "revenging" pet damages would be a really cool "trap" to use.) or maybe 3x Rest (which would address the problem of boss fights.
 
- Suppression of the sadness malus
 
- Defensive Bond modification : I currently find it far too situational to be attractive (even if the idea was cool). Something like a boosted deflection and / or reflexes when the pet is close from its master would be more appealing, especially for melee ranger build.
 
- Applying some Passive Talents and/or abilities to both Ranger and pet : Superior deflection, Interrupting blows, Aiming skills, etc... This would remove the need to "choose" between master and pets at each level up, and would enable a better scaling for the pet. (IMO this would be cooler than an overall buff... It would be far more interesting to build :-)
 
 
 
Not sure it would really address the "ranger purpose" problem though. But I'm pretty sure a "per encounter resurrection skills" by itself would make it far less frustrating to play.
 
 
Do you have any other ideas ?
 
 
PS : And one minor thing would be cool : let pet damages be counted as Ranger damages ! Currently, it is not the case, so this "heavy hitter" damages appear to be even lower than what they actually are !

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I think the big change that needs to happen is the pet's damage output honestly, their damage is too low and is easily blocked by DR. They need a solid way to get around it, or even just make the pet do raw damage. Survivability is another issue, since going into melee in PotD without adequate defenses is basically suicidal. Resilient Companion is actually a pretty weak talent actually, since it only gives 3 DR. Giving it a boost to Deflection would make it far more useful.

 

Also, Takedown would be 100 times better if it targeted Reflexes or Deflection instead of Fort.

Edited by Wolken3156

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So... 1.06 was "about Paladin".

 
If we assume that Obsidian listens to its community, the next update could be the other class which received the most complaints... Yes, I look at you, Ranger !

 

 

In your opinion, what could be this patch ?

 
For me it could be quite different from what they did with Paladin : boosting its abilities.
In my opinion, many of Ranger's abilities are pretty solid  and appealing : stacking accuracy abilities, stunning shots, driving flights... Some may be subpar, but any other classes has subpar abilities too.

 

 

IMO, the ranger's problems are of 2 kinds :

- Its defining trait, the pet, is not that great. Sure, it has its uses. The most complaints come from the fact that it keeps dying all the time, leading to a big malus to Ranger's abilities. The problem appears especially in boss fights and harder difficulties... exactly when you would like your party members to be the most effective !
- The other problem is that Rangers do not really have a critical purpose where they would excel : rogue is better at ranged damages, the pet itself is a weak melee and a poor off-tank. The requirement to have your pet in melee simply cancel the advantage of a ranged hitter. Currently, its "2 in 1" nature makes it a passable filler for a party, but it is hard to imagine why one would use a ranger to fullfill a given role.
 
 
The solution should be about what makes ranger unique : their pets.
 
Pets have indeed some cool traits : 
- They are infinite pools of health (something I think only melee wizard with "Infuse Vital Essence" could be :-) )
- They have 2 engagements (which makes melee ranger the class with the maximum possible engagements, equalling fighters !)
 
Pets could work as meat shields... if only it didn't trigger sadness ! (not to mention the lost abilities like staker link)
And currently, nothing is more frustrating than loosing a pet in a fight, especially due to the rarity of resurrection powers... and no second chance for your pet :-)
 
 
So, what I would find really cool :
 
- Pet overall buff, especially at high level (classic)
 
- A pet resurrection ability !!!! something like 1x per encounter (with a nice buff like "Unbroken". A short duration and important buff to "revenging" pet damages would be a really cool "trap" to use.) or maybe 3x Rest (which would address the problem of boss fights.
 
- Suppression of the sadness malus
 
- Defensive Bond modification : I currently find it far too situational to be attractive (even if the idea was cool). Something like a boosted deflection and / or reflexes when the pet is close from its master would be more appealing, especially for melee ranger build.
 
- Applying some Passive Talents and/or abilities to both Ranger and pet : Superior deflection, Interrupting blows, Aiming skills, etc... This would remove the need to "choose" between master and pets at each level up, and would enable a better scaling for the pet. (IMO this would be cooler than an overall buff... It would be far more interesting to build :-)
 
Not sure it would really address the "ranger purpose" problem though. But I'm pretty sure a "per encounter resurrection skills" by itself would make it far less frustrating to play.
 
Do you have any other ideas ?
 
PS : And one minor thing would be cool : let pet damages be counted as Ranger damages ! Currently, it is not the case, so this "heavy hitter" damages appear to be even lower than what they actually are !

 

 

I agree that the animal companion is "a" defining feature for Rangers, but at least to me, not in a good way.  Personally, I'd rather that a) they were removed entirely or b) made into an optional in class Ability to be gained at level 3 (talents are gained on even numbered levels, abilities on odd numbered levels).

 

I know that some like the AC.  I don't.  I like playing archer rangers but find dragging around a damned pet to be nothing but a pain in the posterior.  I'd prefer to play a pet-less and care free ranger.

 

Another thing that I think I've come around to wanting to see is for the Ranger to gain some melee abilities.  That said, I don't know what would constitute ranger specific melee abilities, unless some of the fighter ones were made available to rangers. 

 

 

As for a Ranger's "critical purpose", I'm not so sure that Rogues are absolutely better at ranged damage production.  They are dependent on team mates to create sneak attack enabling Afflictions which are key for a rogue to increase his damage output, ranged or melee, whereas Rangers will generate constant damage production, with or without those afflictions.  I won't disagree that it might be nice if rangers' ranged damage production was enhanced somewhat, since IMO, they should be the premier ranged DPS class.  But it would be difficult, short of giving them something similar to the sneak attack bonus, since the rogue's sneak attack bonus represents a potential 50% damage increase, which is hard to match.

 

That said, if a ranger's ranged damage production was increased, would that come at the expense of giving them some melee abilities for those players who aren't really into ranged rangers?

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You'd just need a talent that levels up with the ranger.  

 

You know how monk fists auto-upgrade every 4 levels or so?

 

Do the same thing here with inherent pet damage reduction and penetration of enemy damage reduction.  Also accuracy and base damage to keep pace with weapon quality upgrades.  And don't make the rangers pay a talent for each of these.  That's boring.

 

Then to make them actually fun, make 2 of the pets do something other than melee, one could spit out random heals on the owner, another does single-target 8m range debuffing at the cost of it's attack, and one of the 4 remaining should have a reach attack.  Maybe even give one an elemental attack instead of vs. deflection.  Then you'll have some REAL choice in your AC.

 

Rangers are less in need of power than they are in need of flavor.  They're hands down the best gun users in the game.

 

We could also brainstorm on this thread as to what "free" talents the pets could get.  Something like Escape on the wolf.

Edited by Manty5
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You'd just need a talent that levels up with the ranger.  

 

You know how monk fists auto-upgrade every 4 levels or so?

 

Do the same thing here with inherent pet damage reduction and penetration of enemy damage reduction.

 

Then to make them actually fun, make 2 of the pets do something other than melee, one could spit out random heals on the owner, another does single-target 8m range debuffing at the cost of it's attack, and one of the 4 remaining should have a reach attack.  Maybe even give one an elemental attack instead of vs. deflection.  Then you'll have some REAL choice in your AC.

 

Rangers are less in need of power than they are in need of flavor.  They're hands down the best gun users in the game.

 

 In all honesty, the only real choice I want for the AC is to not have one, and have the option to have better abilities on the Ranger him/herself.  The AC's are nothing but a pain in the posterior to me.  Others may like them.  I don't.  I guess that I don't like dragging Lassie around, waiting for him to get nuked on the front lines or having him sitting at my feet like a good obedient AC and doing next to nothing but taking up space. 

Edited by Crucis
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Somehow, I never saw ranger pets as a meat shield, but a neat utility to apply a flanking bonus to every enemy. For that, it serves it's purpose just fine.

I like rangers is a low-maintenance class (similar to chanters).

Could they use a buff? Certainly. But I don't think the buffs should be about their pure combat ability.

 

 

I'd rather go the D&D route and have rangers learn druid spells instead. Obviously, they should be much more limited than druids in their selection.

How about we apply a spell learning mechanic (similar to ciphers) to druid spells for the ranger class?

 

So, at level 1, you can select 2 first level druid abilities (2 uses per rest).

Each level will give you one additional pick.

Every 3 levels, you unlock a new spell rank to pick from.

 

So basicly, by level 12, you have:

3 first level spells

3 second level spells

3 third level spells

1 fourth level spell

 

Each spell level at 2 uses per rest.

Edited by Zwiebelchen

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I agree that D&Dlike Ranger with a few spells like in previous IE games could have been cool.
The same is also true with Paladin.

 

But I don't think Obsidian is going to change this now. Or maybe they could make it an ability and merge it with stuff like binding roots ?

 

 

The same is true for pet removal. In PoE, Rangers are probably going to be more "Beastmaster with a bow/gun" than anything else.

They will not change this in a close future (maybe one day in an expansion ?).
By the way, if you just want a ranged warrior, I think a Rogue dressed in green could be OK ? They even have DoT and crippling shot for the "ranger" flavour...

 

Honnestly, I like the "Beastmaster" way they did it, because it is quite unique. I admit I love unique features more than the flavour of the "old IE ranger" without animal companion.

 

 

About pet talent they would get by levelling, I think that it would be less interesting than a way to actually "build your pet" like you do for your ranger. 

Being able to build them as off-tank / DPS / Utility without sacrifying completely your ranger would be cool.

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You'd just need a talent that levels up with the ranger.  

 

You know how monk fists auto-upgrade every 4 levels or so?

 

Do the same thing here with inherent pet damage reduction and penetration of enemy damage reduction.

 

Then to make them actually fun, make 2 of the pets do something other than melee, one could spit out random heals on the owner, another does single-target 8m range debuffing at the cost of it's attack, and one of the 4 remaining should have a reach attack.  Maybe even give one an elemental attack instead of vs. deflection.  Then you'll have some REAL choice in your AC.

 

Rangers are less in need of power than they are in need of flavor.  They're hands down the best gun users in the game.

 

 In all honesty, the only real choice I want for the AC is to not have one, and have the option to have better abilities on the Ranger him/herself.  The AC's are nothing but a pain in the posterior to me.  Others may like them.  I don't.  I guess that I don't like dragging Lassie around, waiting for him to get nuked on the front lines or having him sitting at my feet like a good obedient AC and doing next to nothing but taking up space. 

 

 

Would you like them better if they were more took the form of an ability rather than an actual battlefield presence, and were visually represented like a pet?  I think it'd be really awesome to have a falcon AC that you could occasionally sic on enemies, doing some damage over time with random chances for a blind or hobble during the attack.  Rest of the time he perches on your shoulder.  But that'd require a big mechanics change and is proably unrealistic. 

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You'd just need a talent that levels up with the ranger.  

 

You know how monk fists auto-upgrade every 4 levels or so?

 

Do the same thing here with inherent pet damage reduction and penetration of enemy damage reduction.

 

Then to make them actually fun, make 2 of the pets do something other than melee, one could spit out random heals on the owner, another does single-target 8m range debuffing at the cost of it's attack, and one of the 4 remaining should have a reach attack.  Maybe even give one an elemental attack instead of vs. deflection.  Then you'll have some REAL choice in your AC.

 

Rangers are less in need of power than they are in need of flavor.  They're hands down the best gun users in the game.

 

 In all honesty, the only real choice I want for the AC is to not have one, and have the option to have better abilities on the Ranger him/herself.  The AC's are nothing but a pain in the posterior to me.  Others may like them.  I don't.  I guess that I don't like dragging Lassie around, waiting for him to get nuked on the front lines or having him sitting at my feet like a good obedient AC and doing next to nothing but taking up space. 

 

 

Would you like them better if they were more took the form of an ability rather than an actual battlefield presence, and were visually represented like a pet?  I think it'd be really awesome to have a falcon AC that you could occasionally sic on enemies, doing some damage over time with random chances for a blind or hobble during the attack.  Rest of the time he perches on your shoulder.  But that'd require a big mechanics change and is proably unrealistic. 

 

 

First off, note that I tend to suggest that the AC be an option to take or not take.  But that said, IF I had that option, I would never ever take the AC.  My personal preference is that the Ranger class have 100% of its class abilities be focused on the ranger personal combat abilities.  But like I emphasized, that my personal preference.  I realize that others like AC's; I don't.  It's just as simple as that.  IMO, AC's are nothing more than an ability and class talent sink that weaken Rangers by reducing the number of options they have to improve the ranger himself.

 

On top of that, the more I compare and have played both rangers and rogues, the more I see how relatively weak rangers are.  The only two advantages that I see rangers as having over rogues are that they have much better overall health, and they have slightly (+5 points) better base deflection.  Other than that, the Rogue class abilities and talents considerably outshine those of the Ranger.  Many of the best damage related Rogue abilities stack (sneak attack, dirty fighting, finishing blow, death blows, etc.), while it seems that a number of the Ranger's best abilities do not.  And right at the core, the Rogue gets sneak attack and what's the Ranger get?  Lassie.  Woo-friggin'-hoo. 

 

---

 

Sorry for venting, but I've always like rangers and am annoyed at how weak they've been made, and even more so because of a freaking, next to useless pet.

Edited by Crucis

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Well, I see you aren't paying the least bit of attention, since what I suggested wasn't an AC, but an ability that looked like one.  Good talk, though.

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Well, I see you aren't paying the least bit of attention, since what I suggested wasn't an AC, but an ability that looked like one.  Good talk, though.

 

Actually, Manty, I did read and pay attention to what you wrote.  My point is that my personal preference is to have nothing that looks, smells, acts, or whatever like an AC.  I want a ranger to be just like every other class.  A character that doesn't have a friggin' animal sidekick, companion, familiar, or pet.  I want the character's abilities to be his and his alone.  I don't think that I can make it any more clear.

 

 

But in truth, I seriously doubt that any such change would occur.

Edited by Crucis

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I suppose I can understand your point of view.

It's probably the same for the ones who love DPS Paladin. Probably even more frustrating because Paladin is not weaker (well, not after 1.06), he/she is just more defensive.

Playing a Ranger PC and being simply weaker in exchange of an extra companion does not sound very good for "role-playing self-esteem". One's personal incarnation should kick ass, at least as well as his/her teammates.

 

 

And what about a talent that would make the ranger STRONGER when the pet dies ? Something like "Enraging grief", that would open the path to "almost petless" build where pets would still be a kind of "bonus meat shield".

This would be quite realistic to develop without totally changing the class, and could still lower the frustration of people who just don't like pets.

 

 

 

By the way, anyone wants to brainstorm about pet mechanics ?

 

I'm reading a lot of thread in this forum discussing about pets, trying to determine whether they are weak or okay.

IMO, Ranger are weak, or at least not rewarding enough for the risks you take. Or maybe they lack a purpose in a party (compared to Tank Fighter, DPS Rogue, Support Priest). What is your opinion ?

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And what about a talent that would make the ranger STRONGER when the pet dies ?

 

Actually, there's a mod for that.  Check the Nexus.

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I suppose I can understand your point of view.

It's probably the same for the ones who love DPS Paladin. Probably even more frustrating because Paladin is not weaker (well, not after 1.06), he/she is just more defensive.

Playing a Ranger PC and being simply weaker in exchange of an extra companion does not sound very good for "role-playing self-esteem". One's personal incarnation should kick ass, at least as well as his/her teammates.

 

 

And what about a talent that would make the ranger STRONGER when the pet dies ? Something like "Enraging grief", that would open the path to "almost petless" build where pets would still be a kind of "bonus meat shield".

This would be quite realistic to develop without totally changing the class, and could still lower the frustration of people who just don't like pets.

 

 

 

By the way, anyone wants to brainstorm about pet mechanics ?

 

I'm reading a lot of thread in this forum discussing about pets, trying to determine whether they are weak or okay.

IMO, Ranger are weak, or at least not rewarding enough for the risks you take. Or maybe they lack a purpose in a party (compared to Tank Fighter, DPS Rogue, Support Priest). What is your opinion ?

 

Ranger is not weaker in ranged damage, he's stronger, but the problems I see are three-fold:

 

1) Ranger's damage is not sufficiently better than mages to justify the general lack of spells/activated abilities. Rogues have weaker ranged damage but can switch to melee to do some serious harm. Ranger barely has any activated abilities, it's just sitting in the back doing boring (albeit impressive) DPS and not much else. At the very least, marked prey should be given some juice so that the ranger can be the "ranged assassin" that can take one thing out at the blink of an eye. Or maybe make it give EVERYONE +20% dmg, like it does in Dragon Age.

 

2) No build diversity. Pretty much one good ranger build, with a limited variety of weapons. Otherwise go play another class for better results. Kinda boring.

 

3) Pet is underwhelming. Pet builds are underwhelming, the pet cannot do significant damage even if you build for it. I think it should be given much better offensive capability, and some defensive so that I don't have to micro it so much.

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I suppose I can understand your point of view.

It's probably the same for the ones who love DPS Paladin. Probably even more frustrating because Paladin is not weaker (well, not after 1.06), he/she is just more defensive.

Playing a Ranger PC and being simply weaker in exchange of an extra companion does not sound very good for "role-playing self-esteem". One's personal incarnation should kick ass, at least as well as his/her teammates.

 

 

And what about a talent that would make the ranger STRONGER when the pet dies ? Something like "Enraging grief", that would open the path to "almost petless" build where pets would still be a kind of "bonus meat shield".

This would be quite realistic to develop without totally changing the class, and could still lower the frustration of people who just don't like pets.

 

 

 

By the way, anyone wants to brainstorm about pet mechanics ?

 

I'm reading a lot of thread in this forum discussing about pets, trying to determine whether they are weak or okay.

IMO, Ranger are weak, or at least not rewarding enough for the risks you take. Or maybe they lack a purpose in a party (compared to Tank Fighter, DPS Rogue, Support Priest). What is your opinion ?

 

Ranger is not weaker in ranged damage, he's stronger, but the problems I see are three-fold:

 

1) Ranger's damage is not sufficiently better than mages to justify the general lack of spells/activated abilities. Rogues have weaker ranged damage but can switch to melee to do some serious harm. Ranger barely has any activated abilities, it's just sitting in the back doing boring (albeit impressive) DPS and not much else. At the very least, marked prey should be given some juice so that the ranger can be the "ranged assassin" that can take one thing out at the blink of an eye. Or maybe make it give EVERYONE +20% dmg, like it does in Dragon Age.

 

2) No build diversity. Pretty much one good ranger build, with a limited variety of weapons. Otherwise go play another class for better results. Kinda boring.

 

3) Pet is underwhelming. Pet builds are underwhelming, the pet cannot do significant damage even if you build for it. I think it should be given much better offensive capability, and some defensive so that I don't have to micro it so much.

 

 

Streaker, ranged rogues don't seem all that weak to me, as long as they're getting a constant supply of targets to sneak attack.  Without that, no doubt that the Ranger is probably better at base damage. 

 

Regarding build diversity, this is a by-product of the class being a dedicated ranged combat specialist.   It'd probably be more varied if Rangers were able to be developed as melee or ranged combatants.

 

Regarding Pets:  Personally I seriously dislike them.  Still, perhaps a better way to do them would be to remove the pet upgrade path from the ranger's own personal development path.  Have pet upgrades be automatic for the animal selected.  And have all of the class abilities and talents be strictly for the Ranger himself.

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Pets should regen endurance at half the rate of warriors and the pet abilities should be combined.

 

Merciless and vicious companion should become one skill.

Called Vicious Bond

Ranger should also get +5% hits converted to crits from it due to pets bloodthirsty nature seeping though the soul link.

 

Resilent and faithfull should become one skill.

Called Resilent bond.

Pet also gains 1/2 of the DR and Deflection the ranger has ontop of its normal stats.

 

Predators sense and Stalkers link is combined.

 

New default pet ability

Will to live.

When an Animal companion is reduced to zero endurance it will summon all its remaining strength to keep fighting on despite being mortally wounded for 6 seconds.

If healed during this time will to live is removed and pet continues the fight normally, can only activate once per fight.

 

New feat

Will to live improvement- Cornered Fury.

When mortally wounded Rangers pet gains 50% damage and attack speed and duration is increased to 10 seconds.

 

All pets start with 11dr(like bear) Bear gains full Endurance regeneration.

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Something which I think should be expanded upon my previous suggestions is this.

 

On normal and easy the Ranger pet is actually fine(if boring and all pet related talents can be ignored), the problem comes on harder difficulties and the negative effects to losing the pet combined with its inability of it to stay alive even off tanking. All the pet talents are useless(or mostly so) due to needing the pet NOT attacking or the most dangerous fights.

 

 

Even something as simple as a Pet mend abiltiy useable once per rest that brings pet back to life at 50% health would help though not entirelly fix the pet problem.

 

 

Also not based on the pet..

 

Swift aim is crap... 20% faster shooting with negative accuracy.

At best damage is increased by 20%, with accuracy reduction its actually less.

 

Vicious aim is 20% slower shooting with 20% more damage.

This extra damage is greater then it seems, as its bypassing armor. Lets say you do 20 damage and dr of 10... you do 10 damage... its 14 with Vicious aim, you have actually increased real damage by 40%.

Now add +10 accuracy and real damage increase can be far greater.

 

As Vicious aim is not overpowered, Swift Aim needs a buff, remove the accuracy penalty and make the improved Swift talent increase accuracy by 10.

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Swift aim is crap... 20% faster shooting with negative accuracy.

At best damage is increased by 20%, with accuracy reduction its actually less.

 

Vicious aim is 20% slower shooting with 20% more damage.

 

It's worse than that because of the distinction between attack speed and recovery speed and the presence of "hard frames" that aren't affected by speed modifiers. Basically, Vicious Aim reduces your speed by a lot less than 20%, while Swift Aim increases it by a lot less than 20%. I don't think Swift Aim is ever worth taking over Vicious Aim.

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