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Should POE's Final release have been called "Early Access?"

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Poll: Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately called and Early Access Game, rather than marketed as a finished product? (209 member(s) have cast votes)

Should the POE that was released have been more appropriately called and Early Access Game, rather than marketed as a finished product?

  1. Yes (19 votes [8.68%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 8.68%

  2. No (157 votes [71.69%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 71.69%

  3. Don't Care (16 votes [7.31%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.31%

  4. Should have been longer in development (27 votes [12.33%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 12.33%

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#41
Nakia

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A bug is when a program does not work the way the programmer intended.  Not everything reported is a bug.  Often it is a design feature that the player does not like.  Improper balancing may or may NOT be a bug.    

 

We should also remember that in a business time is money.  Employees like to be paid.   

 

Players have different opinions and have a right to express those opinions in a polite manner but posting an opinion gives others the right to disagree.  

 

I did not and do not find any thing that breaks the game and makes it unplayable.  I have had no CTDs at all.   Even when I participated in the Backer Beta I had no CTDs although there were some real bugs which where fixed before release.

 

Some one may disagree with what I have just posted and that is his or her right.



#42
abaris

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A bug is when a program does not work the way the programmer intended.  Not everything reported is a bug.  Often it is a design feature that the player does not like.  Improper balancing may or may NOT be a bug.    

 

 

But let's be fair to both sides here. The game had and still has it's share of real bugs. And that is to be expected, since if we strip a video game from all it's artistic woo surrounding it, it's a complexe piece of software designed to run on a multitude of differrent system configuration. It can't be expected that they tested it on every possible hardare configuration out there.

 

On the positive, they're really eager and quick to adress and iron out the flaws. And that's an attitude seldomly found in todays business world. I'm more than willing to go with that.


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#43
Nakia

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I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely.  Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs.  The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program.  These can be at times very weird.  I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

 

I had a game I had played with problems for some time.  One day I started it up and it crashed, would not play.  After some search I found in the game documentary the reason.  It seems the game conflicted for some unknown reason with a printer driver.  I had purchased that printer and installed the driver and the only way I could play the game was by disabling the printer driver.  Fortunately for me that conflict was known and rec ordered.  It was not a bug in the game or in the driver but a  conflict.

 

Those of us that play with modded games know this problem well and can report numerous examples.   Sometimes the game or mod can be fixed and sometimes it can't.

 

Because we are dealing with complex machinery and complex programming we can expect problems and I consider it unfair to simply bash a game because I have problems with it.  

 

It is also possible for there to be a bug that does not affect all individuals. IE: I was not affected by the double click to equip bug because I do not double click to equip, I drag and drop.  

 

As arabis says it is impossible for a developer to test every configuration possible to find conflicts or bugs and so it is up to the player to report problems specifically and with their machines stats in a courteous manner.

 

Combat in particular seems to be the biggest problem partly because of individual likes and dislikes, partly because of complexity.

 

It is my opinion that anyone seeking the perfect game is going to be disappointed.  


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#44
Tigranes

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I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely.  Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs.  The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program.  These can be at times very weird.  I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

 

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?



#45
Gromnir

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is so gauche to quote self, but...

 

http://forums.obsidi...sion/?p=1582604

 

http://forums.obsidi...sion/?p=1582622

 

perhaps Gromnir is not bothered because we had reasonable expectations?  the only surprise we have had regarding bugs in poe is the number o' patches we has seen since the release.  is no way we woulda' anticipated a 1.06 build as of may 2015.  developers have been reactive beyond our estimations.

 

HA! Good Fun! 



#46
Nakia

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I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely.  Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs.  The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program.  These can be at times very weird.  I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

 

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

 

Sorry, I could have misunderstood.  I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong.  :no:



#47
Amentep

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is so gauche to quote self, but...

 

http://forums.obsidi...sion/?p=1582604

 

http://forums.obsidi...sion/?p=1582622

 

perhaps Gromnir is not bothered because we had reasonable expectations?  the only surprise we have had regarding bugs in poe is the number o' patches we has seen since the release.  is no way we woulda' anticipated a 1.06 build as of may 2015.  developers have been reactive beyond our estimations.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

Yeah, I'll be honest I've never met a computer game since I came back to computer gaming that didn't need patching to fix bugs.  The idea that this would be the one time that it wasn't necessary didn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

As I mentioned earlier back in the days of physical copies, install and patch (or install and wait for the patch) was the norm. 



#48
Ink Blot

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Hmm, I actually thought this was a joke when I read the title and the OP. Go figure.



#49
Baladas

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I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely.  Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs.  The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program.  These can be at times very weird.  I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

 

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

 

Sorry, I could have misunderstood.  I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong.  :no:

 

 

 

 

I agree with abaris to a great extent but not completely.  Conflicts can and do arise but those are not bugs.  The game program works as intended by the programmer except when it comes in conflict with another program.  These can be at times very weird.  I know a moderator has asked not to refer to other games but I would like to give this example of a very weird conflict I had.

 

Just for clarification: we'd never ask anybody to not talk about another game. Maybe you meant the OP in this thread?

 

Sorry, I could have misunderstood.  I'm not perfect and am occasionally wrong.  :no:

 

It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right.

 

My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding.

 

Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles"

 

See these articles for a further understanding of my viewpoint:

 

Quote:

 

"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

 

From here:

 

http://www.polygon.c...ed-to-do-to-fix

 

Other links:

 

http://www.neogaf.co...ad.php?t=976550

 

http://www.reddit.co...tively_bugfree/

 

http://conversation....ken-drm-piracy/


Edited by Baladas, 28 May 2015 - 09:14 AM.


#50
Nakia

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I have been playing computer games since the 90s and did the same thing as  Amentep, bought a CD, installed game, looked for patch, installed patch if needed.  Some of those very early games did have bugs that were not fixed but we lived with them.  We were not as sophisticated or demanding as modern players.  It was a new genre and we were thrilled to have it.

 

I do think publishers and consoles have had a very definite affect on when and in what  condition games are published.  There is also a lot more competition these days which will also affect the releasing of a game.

 

As for PoE as far as I can find out with a Google search one major bug was reported after release.

Article date Mar. 31

http://www.rockpaper...f-eternity-uberbug/

 

I disagree strongly that PoE was a broken, unfinished game.



#51
Tigranes

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It was me that requested that in my OP so as to state the nature of the poll and discussion being in regards to POE as its own entity in its own right.

 

My intention has been misunderstood and misrepresented by a particular moderator who interpreted it in his own way through his own understanding.

 

Other comparisons will be made in the discussion, that is obvious, my request was to focus on POE rather than make the usual comparisons, which can become justifications for it being "the norm to release a buggy game." Many games released are relatively bug free at launch, as in they do not have 1000's of bugs, these are the games I consider as "Finished titles"

 

You basically demanded that people avoid using an extremely common and sensible standard for judging whether a game is so buggy it does not deserve to be called a final release. You also presume - mistakenly, in my opinion - that any reference to other games is an invalid 'excuse'. I dispute your premise because I believe it is biased and unrealistic. If you really want to have a discussion about this, then you can't prevent that kind of disputation. I'd be more than willing to respect and consider your views if you are willing to discuss on that level. 

 

Not to mention you break your own rule when it is convenient for you, by commenting that many games released are relatively bug free at launch - which is hypocritical. It is furthermore unsubstantiated. In order for your position to be persuasive, I'd need to see some argument that (1) CRPGs of this kind - scope, budget, resources, etc. accounted for - are capable of being "finished" by your definition, whatever that is; (2) that such levels of "finish" are actually the norm for the industry and can be reasonably expected; (3) that POE's bugginess, under whatever calculation you use and specify, is again, off the charts. 

 

Sans all of that, what you are doing now amounts to a complete elimination of all real world factors and perspectives. People demand that trains run on time. But nobody demands that your plane lands exactly in the promised minute. People demand that a book they buy always has all the pages, but they don't demand that it has zero typos. 


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#52
MunoValente

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"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

 

 

 

This article might be trying to speak for all players, but it clearly doesn't.  The critical and financial success of Bethesda's games clearly shows that the market and the critical community is perfectly fine with the release and patch model, at least with large rpgs.   Players will gladly continue to put up with with being testers if it means getting their games 6 months or a year sooner and honestly having 500,000 or 5 million people playing your game will find issues a hell of lot faster than 20 professional QA people, so you probably end up with a polished product much sooner as well.  If particular player doesn't like this model they can always wait a year or so to buy the game and probably save money as well.


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#53
Nonek

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No, ealry is not a word!



#54
Elerond

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To answer question in topic. Answer is no, final release of game should never be called early access, as if it is final release then it can't be early access to the game. 



#55
Baladas

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No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D



#56
Elerond

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No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?


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#57
Baladas

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"Players won't continue to put up with paying to be game testers, being asked by publishers to help track down issues and load and reload patches for titles they paid to play. But flip that idea, and I'm sure plenty of gamers will beg to get a first look at a game for free, in exchange for their diligent testing and reporting."

 

 

 

This article might be trying to speak for all players, but it clearly doesn't.  The critical and financial success of Bethesda's games clearly shows that the market and the critical community is perfectly fine with the release and patch model, at least with large rpgs.   Players will gladly continue to put up with with being testers if it means getting their games 6 months or a year sooner and honestly having 500,000 or 5 million people playing your game will find issues a hell of lot faster than 20 professional QA people, so you probably end up with a polished product much sooner as well.  If particular player doesn't like this model they can always wait a year or so to buy the game and probably save money as well.

 

Weelll, the commentators on the post seem to agree in general... Anyhooo.....

 

 

Here is another one:

 

Quotes:

 

"No one likes to see something he or she hates in the mirror. But the cold, hard truth of the matter is that we, as gamers, have created an environment in which releasing a bug-free, big-budget game in a timely manner is almost impossible."

 

"For better or worse, buying a big-budget game upon launch seals you into an unspoken arrangement with the developer: You become an unpaid arm of its QA (quality assurance) branch. "

 

"Of course, there will always be gamers for whom bugs are completely unacceptable, and that's a fair attitude to adopt. Unfortunately for them, though, the market has spoken, and it's not very critical of buggy games, provided they get patched within a reasonable time frame. These gamers' best recourse is to avoid pre-ordering a game if it comes from a company (like Ubisoft) with a bad reputation for day-one difficulties and to continue voicing their displeasure (civilly) via email, social media and forums. "

 

http://www.tomsguide...news-19952.html

 

And yes, I have read the whole article. I have not been uncivil, used abusive language or made any personal attacks while voicing my displeasure.

 

I was exited about this game so brought it immediately, looking forward to playing it.

 

I will not make the same mistake again.

 

The market has spoken.....

 

Yay!



#58
Baladas

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No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....



#59
Elerond

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No, ealry is not a word!

Lol.

 

Thank you.

 

Title edited. :D

 

 

Should we start new poll where we ask if first version of topic should be called as early access?

 

I am not charging you for this.

 

You can, however, pay me if you so desire.....

 

 

You wasted my time and time is money, as they say, so you charged me for this...

 

But everybody is free to buy products that they feel are good enough them and if you buy products that weren't good enough then next time remember do more research before you decide to buy a product.



#60
Nakia

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Opinion by Brian Crecente    (This is an opinion and opinions are subject to disagreement and discussion)

http://www.polygon.c...ed-to-do-to-fix







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